Can i accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal?

[vern_humphrey]

I have always found it more useful to worry about my own worship through the Mass of my choice and my own relationship with God than to criticize others for what they do. It generally works out better that way. And if something someone else says that one does not agree with can send one from the church founded by Jesus Christ, then I think the Holy Spirit has work to do here.

Wonderful post!

Let us cast the beam our of our own eyes before we deal with the speck in someone else’s eye.

 

[Jimbo2]

This is a Catholic forum. When you post an uncharitable and unchristian thread like, “Can i accuse the whaevers of causing scandal?” you have to expect someone to gently remonstrate you.

Why? Maybe they are causing scandal! That’s the point of the thread. You can’t presume the the answer and them criticize the OP for asking the question all in the same breath.

As far as being “out of step”, yes, I think lots of people are out-of-step. Welcome to the screwed-up Church of the 21st century, where, as one Bishop succinctly put it “nobody knows anything”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Why? Maybe they are causing scandal! That’s the point of the thread. You can’t presume the the answer and them criticize the OP for asking the question all in the same breath.

Cast the beam out of your own eye before you deal with the mote in someone else’s.

As far as being “out of step”, yes, I think lots of people are out-of-step. Welcome to the screwed-up Church of the 21st century, where, as one Bishop succinctly put it “nobody knows anything”.

Sounds like Post-Modernism to e.

 

[Jimbo2]

This is just weird, Vern. Why not let people discuss the OP’s question? Sure, we all cause scandal to some degree in our lives, and you can (I presume) start as many threads as you want detailing all of the sins we may all be guilty of…but the question on the table is whether the conduct of the Traditionalist movement qualifies as scandal.

If you don’t have anything to say on that topic then…what are you doing?

Back to the topic at hand, I hope…

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is just weird, Vern. Why not let people discuss the OP’s question?

Because it’s self-absorbed and unchristian. Who are we to accuse others?

If you don’t have anything to say on that topic then…what are you doing?

I do have something to say on the topic – to ask, “Can i accuse the whoevers of causing scandal?” is self-absorbed and unchristian.

 

[Jimbo2]

Because it’s self-absorbed and unchristian. Who are we to accuse others?

Um…is this a joke? If not, then it’s really, really funny. Indeed, Vern, who are you to accuse others of being self-absorbed and unChristian?

One more try to get back on topic…

 

[dwc]

Some of the posters have an obvious disdain for modern ritual and almost have a self imposed ban going of all things N.O.

There is ridicule of any worship of God that isn’t contained in their narrow view of what is and isn’t Catholic.

So … what exactly is self-absorbed and unchristian about this? He is stating his experience and no one has said it’s not true, that some of the posters in the Traditional forum don’t have this attitude. He says that this attitude that only their way is the true Catholic way sours him a little.

I also fail to see how him “accusing” some posters of believing their way is the only way and disparaging all things N.O. is him doing the same thing. He’s not disparaging all things traditional or ridiculing the traditional preference for worship. He’s saying how their attitude about NO makes him feel.

There is nothing offensive or uncharitable about his post. I do think it’s interesting that some feel the need to silence or try to bully anyone who states an opinion that is contrary to the traditionalist view.

One more thing – I do agree that naming the thread “can I accuse the traditionalists of scandal” is provoking. However, how many threads have I read where people here inform others that they are sinning, and scandal seems to be a favorite. That’s hardly uncommon here.

 

[Jimbo2]

Indeed, it’s bullying in the name of Christian love. Neat, huh?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Because it’s self-absorbed and unchristian. Who are we to accuse others?

Um…is this a joke? If not, then it’s really, really funny. Indeed, Vern, who are you to accuse others of being self-absorbed and unChristian?

One more try to get back on topic…

Who are you to accuse traditionalists or non-traditionalists of causing scandal?

Such a topic is self-absorbed and unchristian.

 

[Jimbo2]

I’m a Catholic lay person. I accuse those who give scandal of giving scandal. I can correct my brethren. I cannot condemn them to Hell, of course.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So … what exactly is self-absorbed and unchristian about this? He is stating his experience and no one has said it’s not true, that some of the posters in the Traditional forum don’t have this attitude. He says that this attitude that only their way is the true Catholic way sours him a little.

“Can*** I ***accuse the whatevers of causing scandal?”

“Can I **accuse **the whatevers of causing scandal?”

I also fail to see how him “accusing” some posters of believing their way is the only way and disparaging all things N.O. is him doing the same thing.

There is none so blind as him who will not see.

He’s not disparaging all things traditional or ridiculing the traditional preference for worship.

He’s not disparaging things, he’s disparaging people.

He’s saying how their attitude about NO makes him feel.

What part of “Can I accuse the whatevers of causing scandal?” tells us about how he feels?

There is nothing offensive or uncharitable about his post. I do think it’s interesting that some feel the need to silence or try to bully anyone who states an opinion that is contrary to the traditionalist view.

I think it’s interesting how some want to do the very thing they condemn in others.

One more thing – I do agree that naming the thread “can I accuse the traditionalists of scandal” is provoking.

And self-absorbed and unchristian.

However, how many threads have I read where people here inform others that they are sinning, and scandal seems to be a favorite. That’s hardly uncommon here.

When I was little, I tried the “Johnny does it too,” justification and found that my sainted Irish mother wasn’t having any.

 

[Jimbo2]

Is there an “ignore poster” feature in this software? Seems the only way to discuss most topics.

 

[estesbob]

Is there an “ignore poster” feature in this software? Seems the only way to discuss most topics.

Yes-click on their name and then public profile,. There is an option there to ignore their posts, i dont use it myself.

 

[Jimbo2]

Wonderful. The thread just became much more compact. If I seem incoherent in the future, it’s because I can’t see any of Vern’s posts and my comments will not reflect them.

 

[thechrismyster]

Because it’s self-absorbed and unchristian. Who are we to accuse others?

ohhhhh contraire.

We have dozens of threads on this forum relating to judging the ACTIONS of others (not the person, the action) and that is EXACTLY what i am doing as the OP.

Some have strong opinons that wearing a bikini on a beach is wrong. That in introduction of non-traditional music in the liturgy is wrong.

Who is wrong in those situations in the minds of the accuser? ( by extrapolation both obvious and subdued ) … the people who back the action. that is obvious.

So if scandal is caused by a traditionalist who is blatantly against the N.O and causes division and doubt in the minds of non-traditional Catholics…

they in fact would be guilty of causing scandal by their own definition of what scandal is…

Since the N.O IS the normative mass, and the TLM is only recently made widespread through the MP, it almost could be reasoned… dare i say - COULD be reasoned that the people who are the self proclaimed 1962 missal traditionalist only adherents ARE in fact the rebellious ones who can’t come to terms with what is the new norm. (the ones who constantly refer to the N.O. as an incomplete style of worship) and in rejecting the norms, they turn into scandal makers.

crazy thought. or maybe not so crazy, eh?

 

[vern_humphrey]

ohhhhh contraire.

We have dozens of threads on this forum relating to judging the ACTIONS of others (not the person, the action) and that is EXACTLY what i am doing as the OP.

Are we not Catholics?

That means we have more than two speeds, stop and go.

There are some things – abortion, for example – where we cannot remain silent. But in most things, there is no need to accuse people of something.

Some have strong opinons that wearing a bikini on a beach is wrong. That in introduction of non-traditional music in the liturgy is wrong.

In other words, a tempest in a teapot.

Who is wrong in those situations in the minds of the accuser? ( by extrapolation both obvious and subdued ) … the people who back the action. that is obvious.

What is wrong is the accusation. What is wrong is looking for someone to accuse of sin – whether that sin be wearing a bikini, liking the Latin Mass, or not liking it.

So if scandal is caused by a traditionalist who is blatantly against the N.O and causes division and doubt in the minds of non-traditional Catholics…

Answer rationally, without throwing accusations and counter-accusations around.

they in fact would be guilty of causing scandal by their own definition of what scandal is…

They might be – but what profits us to accuse them of that?

Since the N.O IS the normative mass, and the TLM is only recently made widespread through the MP, it almost could be reasoned… dare i say - COULD be reasoned that the people who are the self proclaimed 1962 missal traditionalist only adherents ARE in fact the rebellious ones who can’t come to terms with what is the new norm. (the ones who constantly refer to the N.O. as an incomplete style of worship) and in rejecting the norms, they turn into scandal makers.

But what profit in slinging accusations and counter-accusations?

Ask yourself this, “Am I trying to change someone’s mind?” Then ask, “Am I succeeding, or only hardening them in their position?”

 

[rwoehmke]

My Mom, now deceased God rest her soul, used to talk about “tempests in a teapot.” Nobody drowns, but they sure seem to perceive the ripples as huge waves.

 

[vern_humphrey]

My Mom, now deceased God rest her soul, used to talk about “tempests in a teapot.” Nobody drowns, but they sure seem to perceive the ripples as huge waves.

Yep – and 99 times out of a hundred, we would do better not to climb up on a soap box and start throwing accusations around.

 

[Cat]

I can sympathize with the OP.

Please check out my thread at this link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=174638

I’ve been around Christians, mainly Protestant, for most of my life, and I know that there are always disagreements because we are human beings.

I’ve actually written the Moderators about the Traditionalist section on this Board, and asked them if they would consider posting a Warning to new Catholics.

I converted to Catholicism in 2004. I thought that I had been well-taught by excellent RCIA instructors, and I had read many of the popular books written by ex-Protestants (e.g., Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, etc.)

I visited the Traditionalist section thinking that it would contain information about “deeper” Catholic practices, traditions, devotions, etc. I really like the ancient book, Imitation of Christ, and I’ve read some really thorought biographies of saints like Teresa of Avila and St. Anthony of Padua.

I thought I would find more of this kind of information on the Traditionalist section.

Instead, I found discussions that implied that everything I had been taught by my catechists was WRONG, and that my priests were liberal (because one of them wears a Chicago Bears jersey under his vestments), and that the music that I play on the piano is irreverent.

They provided all kinds of written documentation proving their points.

And I…well, I didn’t know what to believe anymore! Wiser people than me have been fooled by false teachers and sucked into cults. I was very afraid that the Catholicism I had come to know and love was false Catholicism, “modernism” that was totally opposed to what Jesus and His apostles had taught.

Thankfully the Lord led me through this. At this point, I listen to my BISHOP and my PRIESTS, and I take everything that people on this board say with a grain of salt.

So yes, I think that it’s possible that some of the the Traditionalist teaching could cause a new Catholic like me to renounce their Church, simply because we don’t have the experience to deal with these teachings and process them. As ex-Protestants, we are very used to making up our own minds about God. So when there seem to be opposing teachings in the Catholic Church and we aren’t sure which one is true, we will revert to what we have done all our lives–be our own Pope and decide for ourselves. And some of us will make the incorrect decision. To me, that’s scandalous.

 

[Jimbo2]

Cat - I hear you, but I have been there, and I think you may be setting yourself up for a problem.

We can’t begin to reject facts because they are inconvenient, either. The OP can certianly accuse Trads of causing scandal, hopefully such fraternal correction will lead the people he’s talking to into a better method of dealing with non-traditional Catholics.

However, we’d also be doing wrong if we ignored Traditional Catholics altogether because they once caused us scandal - particularly if they’re right about some things (which they are).

The music thing is, in particular, going to be a battleground in the Church. It’s going to be beyond awful. Everyone is going to be angry and the long knives are going to some out. IMO, Trads ought to go lightly on that one for their own safety. When they say “the Church has said repeatedly that the organ is the proper instrument for litugical music and the only time the piano was mentioned was to forbid it”…well, that’s a true statement. Now we get to have a Catholic-on-Catholic battle royale between lay-people because the Bishops won’t do their job and enforce the rules of the Church. It’s terrible.

Anyway, if I find a situation where the trads disagree with a priest I know (used to happen to me all the time), if it’s an issue I find important, I go directly to the Church documents. I don’t care what anybody thinks about it, I try to only care what the Church says.

That seems to be the smart thing to do.