Can i accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal?

[latinmasslover]

Can i accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal?

Anyone can be accused of causing scandal, if in fact, they are causing scandal. “Traditionalists” are not the only ones who falter. True, in a lot of cases they are too “by the book” and have a hard time meeting others where they’re at. They try to feed the infants with meat rather than milk, so to speak. Liberals do the same thing, abandoning doctrine, morality, and decency in the name of “Christian love” which is nothing more than license (as it tends to be practiced.)

I am a “traditionalist.” I love the Latin Mass, and I have a strong distate for for the modernization of the Holy Rite. I go to the Novus Ordo strictly out of obedience and to receive Holy Communion. However, I know people who do not attend the Tridentine and who are very holy. Of course, all of these people actually know what the Church teaches, but still. Attending the Novus Ordo does not make anyone a bad Catholic; condemning the Tridentine though…

Anyway, my point is that the scandals that are caused by Trads, when their behavior is more pharisaical, it’s usually done due to a love for the Faith and a desire to see it practiced. Just like some more liberal Catholics tend to prefer to allow anything nomatter how sinful or disrespectful in the name of “love.”

 

[John_Mailer]

But then civilians never read The Defense of Duffer’s Drift.

Wacht een beetje. Al zal rechkom.
Lieutenant Backsight Forethought.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Wacht een beetje. Al zal rechkom.
Lieutenant Backsight Forethought.

And all of the different “solutions” to the problem are actually battles of the Boer War, scaled down and fitted to the terrain of the book.

The “dream” where the bullets are zipping through the parapet and killing men in the trench is Spion Kop, of course.

And ironically the “ultimate solution” is Vaal Krantz – a Boer, not a British victory.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Of consideration here in this discussion is the verbal attack that traditionalists have to suffer from people who come on the TC forum and say uncharitable things, and using demeaning language to stereotype all trads, things like calling them mini popes, Protestants, sedevacantists, and heretics.

It gets very tiresome…

 

[John_Mailer]

Of consideration here in this discussion is the verbal attack that traditionalists have to suffer from people who come on the TC forum and say uncharitable things, and using demeaning language to stereotype all trads, things like calling them mini popes, Protestants, sedevacantists, and heretics.

It gets very tiresome…

Paramedicgirl, what does it mean TC?
I fully understand your hurt but think of them as poor lost souls that maybe are worse than atheists. Their right place will be Hell where they will burn for a whole eternity.

With all my love,
John

 

[vern_humphrey]

Of consideration here in this discussion is the verbal attack that traditionalists have to suffer from people who come on the TC forum and say uncharitable things, and using demeaning language to stereotype all trads, things like calling them mini popes, Protestants, sedevacantists, and heretics.

It gets very tiresome…

Ah, yes – but those who attack each other feel good about themselves, you know – like the Pharasee in the parable, who thanked God he wasn’t like the other fellow.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Paramedicgirl, what does it mean TC?
I fully understand your hurt but think of them as poor lost souls that maybe are worse than atheists. Their right place will be Hell where they will burn for a whole eternity.

With all my love,
John

TC is short for traditional Catholic forum. I must disagree with you, however. How can you possibly say that someone will burn in hell when even our own Church never says definitively if someone is in hell?
And if I were to think of anyone as a poor lost soul who is worse than an atheist, that would be very judgmental. I hope you don’t subscribe to those thoughts you wrote in your post.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Ah, yes – but those who attack each other feel good about themselves, you know – like the Pharasee in the parable, who thanked God he wasn’t like the other fellow.

Interesting that you mentioned the Pharisee, Vern. Here is a quote from a January thread in the TC forum from someone who continuously calls trads whiners. .This is an example of the lack of charity extended towards traditional Catholics that I am talking about.

And as one poster said, and another seconded, may I add my “third” Amen to “frankly, I’m getting tired of hearing/seeing this whining”? Go in prayer and learn the Lord’s thoughts:

The Protestant lifts his heart in morning prayer…

The charismatic raises his arms in prayer…

The Catholic gives thanks in prayer for his new day…

The traditionalist prays and says, I’m glad I’m not one like them, and when will you give me back my rights…

Whom does the Lord hear?

 

[kam1953f]

And if I were to think of anyone as a poor lost soul who is worse than an atheist, that would be very judgmental. I hope you don’t subscribe to those thoughts you wrote in your post paramedicgirl

I came from the old school (pre-Vatican II) and am feverishly awaiting the return of the Latin Mass to our diocese. (Um, there is one now, but it’s at least a 120 mile round trip.) I am about as traditional as they come, but even in my earliest parochial school years I remember our priest warning us against such judgments.

The judgment of a man’s heart is God’s alone.

I am married to one atheist and mother to another one. They came to their conclusions after thorough study and thought. Yet they are two of the most moral men I know, performing the Works of Mercy constantly. They never sin against charity by damning anyone. I have no fear for their redemption.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I stopped reading the Trad board for exactly that reason. It seems hypocritical to me that you could say you’re Catholic and in Full Communion with Rome, recognize that the Pope is the successor of Peter, etc, and yet speak with such disdain for a valid form of the Most Holy Mass, authorized by Pope John Paul II.

I can understand being angry with some problems with liturgical abuse, but I see no reason to hate A WHOLE FORM OF MASS (hello, it’s MASS, Most Holy Communion!!) based on some priests’ horrible decision to abuse it in certain cases. The Norvus Ordo at my parish is beautiful and reverent. It doesn’t make any sense to hate it because it’s a Norvus Ordo, or even because it’s not in Latin.

I started to fall into the same pit as the Trads on that board, but I decided to stop reading the board for a while, and realized what was going on. It’s really sad to me.

I found myself in the same position as you. I am very orthodox in my beliefs, and have a tendency to be a bit scrupulous. So what I found myself doing, unintentionally, was going to Mass and looking for “abuses”. I found myself focusing on what people were wearing, how many EMHC’s there were, the postures of people, scrutinizing the priest, etc. But that was my fault, not the “traditionalists”. I decided not to frequent that forum anymore because I just have too many logs in my own eyes to be worried about others’, and my focus was getting off of Christ.

I do not judge the Traditional-minded on that forum, though, because everyone needs to worship and live as their consciences dictate. I am happy that the Church is providing for their worship needs, finally. But I can’t go there, even with my very orthodox Catholic beliefs. What is sad, though, is that sometimes I feel that there is a split in the church, not formally, as in the case of the schismatics, but in mindset.

 

[Jimbo2]

You know, seeing abuses in the Mass is not a personal problem, unless you are imagining them.

If abuses are present, and you see them…does this say anything bad about you?

OTOH, if abuses are present, and you pretend not to see them, is that somehow better or more honest?

I can’t understand why we need a different policy, other than honesty? If something abusive is happening, you have a responsibility to inform the authorities. If not, then don’t.

 

[CB_Catholic]

You know, seeing abuses in the Mass is not a personal problem, unless you are imagining them.

If abuses are present, and you see them…does this say anything bad about you?

OTOH, if abuses are present, and you pretend not to see them, is that somehow better or more honest?

I can’t understand why we need a different policy, other than honesty? If something abusive is happening, you have a responsibility to inform the authorities. If not, then don’t.

I think if you reread my post you will see that I was looking for abuses, not that I saw any. That’s where it becomes a personal problem. I was not in the habit of scrutinizing things and people at Mass. And I found myself doing this because of the complaints I was reading. I don’t need to be doing this at Mass. I am there to worship the Lord. If something would occur that was truly abusive, I would recognize it, but I don’t need to go looking for things. So yes, for me it can a problem. I don’t know about others. And I think I am being honest when I admit to it. I can be scrupulous and rigid if I don’t watch myself, and God is working on me to overcome that.

 

[Julianna]

Paramedicgirl, what does it mean TC?
I fully understand your hurt but think of them as poor lost souls that maybe are worse than atheists. Their right place will be Hell where they will burn for a whole eternity.

With all my love,
John

I don’t recall any post by N.O. Catholics or those who prefer a less pomp and circumstance mass…stating that those who are ardent traditionalists are “lost souls” and their “right place will be in hell where they will burn for a whole eternity”…

Yet another poster with a “crystal ball” who can readily predict the salvation of souls who prefer mass a different way.

I purposely did not capitalize “hell” because I don’t give evil the credence or press that you have given it. Evil is vain.

The only place you will find a statement like “lost souls” and…their “right place will be in hell where they will burn for a whole eternity”…is on TV or radio…but those spouting those words out on the air waves…are NOT Catholic.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Interesting that you mentioned the Pharisee, Vern. Here is a quote from a January thread in the TC forum from someone who continuously calls trads whiners. .This is an example of the lack of charity extended towards traditional Catholics that I am talking about.

The thing about hatred is that it makes one into that which one hates.

 

[TNT]

And if I were to think of anyone as a poor lost soul who is worse than an atheist, that would be very judgmental. I hope you don’t subscribe to those thoughts you wrote in your post paramedicgirl

I came from the old school (pre-Vatican II) and am feverishly awaiting the return of the Latin Mass to our diocese. (Um, there is one now, but it’s at least a 120 mile round trip.) I am about as traditional as they come, but even in my earliest parochial school years I remember our priest warning us against such judgments.

The judgment of a man’s heart is God’s alone.

I** am married to one atheist and mother to another one. They came to their conclusions after thorough study and thought. Yet they are two of the most moral men I know, performing the Works of Mercy constantly. They never sin against charity by damning anyone. I have no fear for their redemption**.

Jn3:
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19. 6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19. 6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again. 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I’m for throwin that command & promise of God Himself out the window as well.

 

[BobP123]

Some of the posters have an obvious disdain for modern ritual and almost have a self imposed ban going of all things N.O.

I believe the Pope falls into this category as well. Maybe you’d like to take up your attacks against the trads to him?

 

[BobP123]

I’m a Latin Novus-Ordo Massgoer myself, I consider myself very traditional, but I refuse to swallow all of the junk that many Traditionalists are peddling.

It’s the new world order against the traditionalists. How can you be both?

 

[BobP123]

If a Traditionalist through words can cause a Catholic to loose faith in the Church…

How can holding steadfast to the Catholic faith and teachings of 1900-some years cause scandal? What kind of faith are you talking about that you would be losing?

 

[m134e5]

The only time i’ve ever been soured, even in the tiniest bit, to the Catholic Church is when i read some of the posts on the traditional board. Some of the posters have an obvious disdain for modern ritual and almost have a self imposed ban going of all things N.O.

There is ridicule of any worship of God that isn’t contained in their narrow view of what is and isn’t Catholic.

So, i guess in a way… if i drift from the Church one day having realized that those who purport to be closest to God are the most not like him… Would that make them guilty of causing scandal?

I mean, if a woman in a bikini can cause a man to sin… she is guilty of scandal. If a Traditionalist through words can cause a Catholic to loose faith in the Church… wouldn’t they be guilty of scandal as well?

Without a doubt. I would even say it is worse than a woman in a bikini causing a man to sin- because traditionalists (note- I am not referring to all of them- only the ones who are bitter and seem to want to stone priests to death when the liturgy isn’t perfect according to their standards- like throwing tomatoes or eggs at a lousy performer).

 

[Jenny_Z]

It’s the new world order against the traditionalists. How can you be both?

Are you implying that there are sides we must join? Traditionalist and Non-Traditionalist?

One can be Traditionalist without doing what some traditionalists do, constantly complain about the Novus Ordo. One can be a Traditionalist and not NEED a mass in Latin, and act as if it’s the end of the world if it’s not available.

And notice I said “some” (and the person you quoted said “many”), not all. I know there are many Traditionalists who aren’t so sensationalized, but (unfortunately) on the Trad Board, the more vocal are more noticeable, and many of them seem to fall into the above categories. Throwing everyone into a “us vs them” fight doesn’t really make sense when we’re all different.