Can i accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal?

[latinmasslover]

The only time i’ve ever been soured, even in the tiniest bit, to the Catholic Church is when i read some of the posts on the traditional board. Some of the posters have an obvious disdain for modern ritual and almost have a self imposed ban going of all things N.O.

There is ridicule of any worship of God that isn’t contained in their narrow view of what is and isn’t Catholic.

So, i guess in a way… if i drift from the Church one day having realized that those who purport to be closest to God are the most not like him… Would that make them guilty of causing scandal?

I mean, if a woman in a bikini can cause a man to sin… she is guilty of scandal. If a Traditionalist through words can cause a Catholic to loose faith in the Church… wouldn’t they be guilty of scandal as well?

Just a mental exercise…

We’re scandalous for continuing the traditions of Holy Mother Church and opposing the Novus Ordo? That is the narrow-minded view? WE don’t encourage the priest offering the Sacrifice with his back to God. WE don’t approve of turning around greeting everybody around us as soon as Jesus descends to the altar. WE stand by the Saints, the Church writings, and Vatican 2 as interpreted in light of Holy Tradition, and WE are the ones causing scandal? Read up on the Protestant “Reformers,” the changes they made in the Mass and why, and then take a look at the Novus Ordo and the results since it’s implementation.

How many people do you personally know who have left the Church because of “Traditionalists” compared to how many leave because of liberals, because it’s implied, and in some cases actually taught, that one church is as good as another. How many people do you know that don’t come into the Church simply because they see no difference in worship?

Julian Green, a former Protestant was scandalized to see a Protestant service for a Catholic Mass: Why did we convert?

Numererous Protestants "the new Catholic Eucharistic Prayers have abandoned the false perspective of sacrifice offered to God.

“With the New Liturgy, non-Catholic communities will be able to celebrate the Lord’s Supper with the same prayers as the Catholic Church.” Max Thurian, Prot. minister of Taize.

“…Nothing in the renewed Mass need really trouble the Evangelical Protestant.” M.G. Siegvalt, Prot. Professor of Cogmatiic Theology, Stasbourg.

The non-Catholics say this, the Freemasons believe Rome finally has gotten it together, and you say that this is our “narrow view of what is and isn’t Catholic?” I think the non-“traditionalists” are the ones that are causing scandal, by their opposition and whining of Catholics being Catholic, while they go dancing hand-in-hand with people who’s theology opposes the Church. The Virgin Mary has warned at Fatima that the great apostasy will “begin at the top.” Jesus and St. Paul warned of this. The enemies of the Church, Freemasons, totally approve, as do many Protestants. If the fact that the enemy (and I mean this from a theological perspective, not referring to the actual people) approves of the changes in the Mass and in the Church as a whole. if this doesn’t warn you that something’s wrong, nothing will.

Vatican Council 1: the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter, that by His revelation they might make *new *doctrine, but that by His assistance they might inviolably keep and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit fo faith delivered through the Apostles. (DS 3070)

 

[paramedicgirl]

Are you implying that there are sides we must join? Traditionalist and Non-Traditionalist?

One can be Traditionalist without doing what some traditionalists do, constantly complain about the Novus Ordo. One can be a Traditionalist and not NEED a mass in Latin, and act as if it’s the end of the world if it’s not available.

And notice I said “some” (and the person you quoted said “many”), not all. I know there are many Traditionalists who aren’t so sensationalized, but (unfortunately) on the Trad Board, the more vocal are more noticeable, and many of them seem to fall into the above categories. Throwing everyone into a “us vs them” fight doesn’t really make sense when we’re all different.

You know, Jenny, what is so overlooked by many is the equal number of very progressive, liberal Catholic who come on to the TC forum and denounce the traditional Catholics. I could look up their posts and quote them to prove my point, but the comments are so uncharitable that I have put them all on ignore. So you see, Jenny, there are venomous people on the Novus Ordo “side” who really appear to hate traditional Catholics and the traditions we stand for. And it always ends up being the traditional Catholics who always get the bad rap.

 

[thechrismyster]

Of consideration here in this discussion is the verbal attack that traditionalists have to suffer from people who come on the TC forum and say uncharitable things, and using demeaning language to stereotype all trads, things like calling them mini popes, Protestants, sedevacantists, and heretics.

It gets very tiresome…

some shoes fit, even if the buyer isn’t fond of the color.

And lets be honest, the traditionalists aren’t the shrinking violet victims they want to pretend to be. they put their hand into the hornets nest quite often with posts that rip the NO and ‘liberal’ Clergy.
don’t play semantics, search the net for traditionalist blogs and such, you’ll find many that are slanted to the point of being sideways.
THEY are the problem, they do cause scandal, they are on the far fringes of even calling themselves in communion with Rome.
They are tiresome. Catholics should call them on the carpet whenever and wherever they rear their anti-N.O sentiments and cute left handed comments on guitars and non traditional music… They can’t twist and distort the Catholic religion with revisionist history and then lay claim to it as their own. it doesn’t work that way. Catholics need to start defending their faith. and one of the battlefronts is the assail we face from the self proclaimed traditionalists who want to plant their flag on the Mass and claim it for themselves.
The N.O. is the Body of Christ 100% with no lesser worship value than the latin Mass. That is the truth.

 

[thechrismyster]

So you see, Jenny, there are venomous people on the Novus Ordo “side” who really appear to hate traditional Catholics and the traditions we stand for. .

grandstanding intro aside, you are the only one here who has pointed out sides exist.

We are all Catholics, 100% equal.

 

[Fitz]

Since our all knowing Lord can read our minds and our hearts, why would we every worry about someone else’s church attire or another’s view of mass protocol? I do think that sometimes we are our own worst enemy!

 

[fix]

OneAugustKnight,

Please don’t be put off by traditionalists or any of the other factions of the Church. Such groups have been around since at least the Council of Jerusalem in 50 A.D.

On one issue or another I have found myself in strong agreement or disagreement with most of them. I study what they all have to say and forge my Catholic path according to the best judgment of my own conscience.

In Catholicism, the conscience is supreme. God does not reject anyone who follows his conscience faithfully, and He cares more about the works of mercy than whether a woman wears slacks.

Back in the Stone Age before Vatican II, I asked of my First Communion teacher, “Do you really mean that if I eat meat on a Friday I will go to the same hell as Hitler?” I missed a couple of recesses for that question. It was only much later that I realized I’d been punished so the nun could save face - When a teacher has a class of 50 kids, she can’t afford to be undermined by the independent thought of a student.

This is why I find it so unsettling when members of one faction of the Church criticize those of another faction: We’re all trying our best to do right as we understand it. No one should ask anybody to do the supernatural trick of reading God’s mind, much less judge him when the poor human being can’t do it.

Conscience is not supreme. Truth is supreme. Truth being a person Jesus.

 

[latinmasslover]

grandstanding intro aside, you are the only one here who has pointed out sides exist.

We are all Catholics, 100% equal.

“We are all Catholics, 100% equal.” Typical liberal, contradicting yourself. If you truly held that opinion then you wouldn’t have started this anti-Catholic thread, now would you? True, the Novus Ordo is valid, but if a priest leaves the Church for Satanism, he can hold a VALID Mass. Would you attend that?

 

[paramedicgirl]

some shoes fit, even if the buyer isn’t fond of the color.

And lets be honest, the traditionalists aren’t the shrinking violet victims they want to pretend to be. they put their hand into the hornets nest quite often with posts that rip the NO and ‘liberal’ Clergy.
don’t play semantics, search the net for traditionalist blogs and such, you’ll find many that are slanted to the point of being sideways.
THEY are the problem, they do cause scandal, they are on the far fringes of even calling themselves in communion with Rome.
They are tiresome. Catholics should call them on the carpet whenever and wherever they rear their anti-N.O sentiments and cute left handed comments on guitars and non traditional music… They can’t twist and distort the Catholic religion with revisionist history and then lay claim to it as their own. it doesn’t work that way. Catholics need to start defending their faith. and one of the battlefronts is the assail we face from the self proclaimed traditionalists who want to plant their flag on the Mass and claim it for themselves.
The N.O. is the Body of Christ 100% with no lesser worship value than the latin Mass. That is the truth.

Your post sounds just like the hatred I am speaking of.

 

[paramedicgirl]

grandstanding intro aside, you are the only one here who has pointed out sides exist.

We are all Catholics, 100% equal.

If you read your own thread, Chris, you would see clearly that the only grandstanding intro was done by you, in your first post. I challenge you to show me where I pointed out sides. I found the post where it was done, but I won’t link to it, because I am not going to do your work for you.

The lack of charity I notice in this thread is not coming from the traditional Catholics. Did you really expect that hiding this thread in the moral theology forum would keep traditional Catholics from noticing it, thereby stacking the responses in your favour?

 

[thechrismyster]

Did you really expect that hiding this thread in the moral theology forum would keep traditional Catholics from noticing it, thereby stacking the responses in your favour?

I didn’t hide this thread. i was searching for intelligent responses, thats why its in the moral theology forum.

 

[thechrismyster]

Your post sounds just like the hatred I am speaking of.

Truth is truth.

 

[thechrismyster]

“We are all Catholics, 100% equal.” Typical liberal, contradicting yourself.

I need not expand upon that beautiful logic you’ve graced us with.

 

[SeekerJen]

“We are all Catholics, 100% equal.” Typical liberal, contradicting yourself. If you truly held that opinion then you wouldn’t have started this anti-Catholic thread, now would you? True, the Novus Ordo is valid, but if a priest leaves the Church for Satanism, he can hold a VALID Mass. Would you attend that?

Are you seriously equating a Pauline Mass with a Black Mass? If so, then there may be some truth to thechrismyster’s assertions.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I didn’t hide this thread. i was searching for intelligent responses, thats why its in the moral theology forum.

Ouch. Are you going to make me bring out that dead horse, Chris?

 

[latinmasslover]

Are you seriously equating a Pauline Mass with a Black Mass? If so, then there may be some truth to thechrismyster’s assertions.

No, I’m not equating the two except to make a point which Sherlock should’ve gotten.

 

[latinmasslover]

I need not expand upon that beautiful logic you’ve graced us with.

Nothing hateful in the statement that I made, bud.

 

[Julianna]

No, I’m not equating the two except to make a point which Sherlock should’ve gotten.

I hope that was worth a confession. It never ceases to amaze me that there are some human beings who have “all the answers”, “the divine truth”, “are holier than thou” and anyone who has the audacity to ask a question, share an individual thought, take the journey to Christ walking instead of crawling is somehow “less than” Catholic.

As long as we are “human”, there will be scandal, there will be sin, there will be much less than perfection. It doesn’t matter how many times one prays the rosary, rolls around in sack cloth and ashes, wears a hat to to mass…a human will never achieve perfection. The journey does not have to be wrought with guilt, marching lock-step all the while pointing out those who keys in their backs have stop winding.

The truth is…we don’t know…all this crystal ball gazing is pointless.

chrismeyster…thank you for “daring to think for yourself”…never be afraid to ask a question.

 

[latinmasslover]

I hope that was worth a confession. It never ceases to amaze me that there are some human beings who have “all the answers”, “the divine truth”, “are holier than thou” and anyone who has the audacity to ask a question, share an individual thought, take the journey to Christ walking instead of crawling is somehow “less than” Catholic.

As long as we are “human”, there will be scandal, there will be sin, there will be much less than perfection. It doesn’t matter how many times one prays the rosary, rolls around in sack cloth and ashes, wears a hat to to mass…a human will never achieve perfection. The journey does not have to be wrought with guilt, marching lock-step all the while pointing out those who keys in their backs have stop winding.

The truth is…we don’t know…all this crystal ball gazing is pointless.

chrismeyster…thank you for “daring to think for yourself”…never be afraid to ask a question.

What is it with you and crystal balls? It’s getting old fast. The original post was not a question to lead oneself closer to God, it was an accusation to stir the pot. Can I accuse liberals of causing scandals by approving everything under the sun? That would certainly be stirring the pot. How about, “all these liberals have no respect for Catholicism, the words of Jesus Christ… All they do is present their personal opinion in the name of “love” and call it the teachings of Jesus;” what of that delightful question to grow to God. There’s asking a question and then there’s smarting off.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are some human beings who have “all the answers”, “the divine truth”, “are holier than thou”
that accusation right there comes from people who know they’re wrong and won’t admit it, or don’t know they’re wrong and have no defense for the mumbo-jumbo they spew.

Before another lame accusation comes at me or any other Catholic by you or any other Protestant minded, let me say that you need to rethink your Catholicism. You all go around condemning the “traditionalists” but support the heretics, schismatics, pagans…You condemn those inside the Church who do not go against Her teachings while at the same time approve those outside (and inside, for that matter) tryig to tear her down.

Yes, there are “trads” who cause scandal by being over critical. There are LIBERALS who shall go unnamed, who cause scandal by behaving no different than the heathen and constantly undermining the teachings and holy traditions of the Church. In the spirit of Vatican 2, who are any of you to condemn anybody.

 

[SeekerJen]

No, I’m not equating the two except to make a point which Sherlock should’ve gotten.

Since I’m not a Sherlock, please explain. From where I’m sitting, it seems as though you’re saying the the Pauline Mass is on par with the Satanic “Mass”, and that the latter is valid if a former priest presides. Also, it appears to be implied that the Pauline Mass is no better than the Satanic “Mass”.

I truly hope I am mistaken.

 

[latinmasslover]

Since I’m not a Sherlock, please explain. From where I’m sitting, it seems as though you’re saying the the Pauline Mass is on par with the Satanic “Mass”, and that the latter is valid if a former priest presides. Also, it appears to be implied that the Pauline Mass is no better than the Satanic “Mass”.

I truly hope I am mistaken.

Actually, “Sherlock” was in reference to a certain liberal know-it-all, but to your question. The Black Mass is valid (actually, all Masses are valid) when 1) a valid priest says it, 2) the right matter is there, 3) the right words, and 4) right intention (meaning the intention to consecrate, not the worship of God). However, I was not equating the protestant appearing Novus Ordo Mass with the Christ-bashing Satan glorifying Black Mass. I was making a point. An accusation that was thrown out was that “trads” are making a big deal out of nothing, the way the Holy Mass is said. “The Novus Ordo is valid, don’t say anything negative about it.” My point was, is, so is the Black Mass. (Interestingly enough, you see more Satanists who believe in the True Presence at a Black Mass than you do liberal Catholics at the Novus Ordo. Which side is scandelous now?) Anyway, this isn’t the thread to debate differences on the Mass, I was just making a point to a Catholic basher.