Can I attend this wedding in good conscience?

[skigirl1689]

Uh, yeah, it does.

A Catholic is Catholic by virtue of their baptism, and Church law makes no allowance for them to be married outside the Church. Their attempt at marriage is invalid. This is certainly different than attending a valid marriage between non-Catholics, as it is no marriage at all and nothing to celebrate.

I’m going to go a little off-topic here, hope no one minds. What defines being “baptized Catholic?” Is it being baptized by a priest or does it have to include the intention that then child be raised Catholic? I’ll explain why I ask. I was baptized by a priest due to an emergency situation when I was born, but my parents never intended to raise me Catholic, and would have been baptized by a Lutheran pastor if the circumstance was different. I am still Lutheran. So, I’m just asking if the statement “A Catholic is Catholic by virtue of their baptism” always applies?

To the OP, your cousin is still under Church law so I have to agree with the others that it would be an invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

In my case, my mother was a convert and my father converted to marry her. She died when I was 10, and my father never resumed our catechesis and so we drifted away from the Church. Sometimes there are factors that aren’t in the parents’ control, really. I guess my dad could have made more of an effort, but his heart wasn’t in it. He did his best as a single dad with 2 girls to raise. He transferred his values and morals but left us anchorless as far as our faith went.

Thank God that we “broken pots” can still be fixed later on!

Very true - THANK GOD for that! There is hope for all of us, thanks to His grace.

And you are right, that the parents themselves have mitigating factors that make THEM more or less culpable for this wrong. Objectively, it is an injustice. But it is true that one might be able to go back generations and point to factors that perpetuated it, and cause one to have more sympathy and understanding towards the parents etc…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Very true - THANK GOD for that! There is hope for all of us, thanks to His grace.

And you are right, that the parents themselves have mitigating factors that make THEM more or less culpable for this wrong. Objectively, it is an injustice. But it is true that one might be able to go back generations and point to factors that perpetuated it, and cause one to have more sympathy and understanding towards the parents etc…

My mother was the child of a violent alcoholic. As far as I know, there was no religion in her home. I heard from another relative that she herself converted because she was engaged to a Catholic man (not my father!); however, he left her. She loved the Church by then (thank you God!) and stayed Catholic (she was VERRRRY devout). (Back then, you had to convert in order to marry a Catholic.) If she hadn’t met my dad, I could see her becoming a nun. She was so devout.

On my dad’s side, also no religion. No alcoholism thank God, but his mother died when he was 8 years old and by age 15 he was working full time and helping support the younger kids still at home. When my mother died, there were some bitter feelings that very few of the people at church whom she had helped, ever called or came around again. I was too young to know any of that of course. Daddy ended up as a Baptist later on in his life. He was baptized again of course. I pray for him and Mom all the time.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

It is sad how these things twist and turn. I have a family history that created a long line of religious rebellion as well. It was only through the grace of God that I gave up on the rebellion. It’s not just the parents though. It’s the community, and the culture. And at least in the cases I know of, it goes back much farther than just the 60’s.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It is sad how these things twist and turn. I have a family history that created a long line of religious rebellion as well. It was only through the grace of God that I gave up on the rebellion. It’s not just the parents though. It’s the community, and the culture. And at least in the cases I know of, it goes back much farther than just the 60’s.

Oh, yes, my parents were born in 1915 and 1920, and as far as I know, none of their ancestors had religion. My mother’s family comes from Devonshire England. Not sure where my father’s family originated, I can’t trace them back over the pond. Since faith is passed down, I’m going to assume that none of my ancestors had any. At least one of them was an evil, evil man.

 

[1ke]

I’m going to go a little off-topic here, hope no one minds. What defines being “baptized Catholic?” Is it being baptized by a priest or does it have to include the intention that then child be raised Catholic?

Being baptized into the Catholic Church by a priest or deacon (ordinary minister) or by a designated person (emergency situation).

I was baptized by a priest due to an emergency situation when I was born, but my parents never intended to raise me Catholic, and would have been baptized by a Lutheran pastor if the circumstance was different. I am still Lutheran.

A highly irregular situation, and I would say you are not a Catholic. If your parents made it clear they did not intend to bring you into communion with the Catholic Church then it is *possible *the priest baptized you without bringing you into the Catholic Church.

The situation would have to have been dire-- as in you were not expected to live long enough for a Lutheran minister to arrive-- I am actually surprised because in such a case the priest *should have *declined and had your parents baptize you themselves. He could have been the witness but should not have actually conferred the baptism.

And, I would also double check the parish in which you were located (i.e. the parish in whose boundaries the hospital or whatever was located) because, who knows, the priest may have indeed recorded a Catholic baptism. In which case, yes, the Church would consider you to be a Catholic.

So, I’m just asking if the statement “A Catholic is Catholic by virtue of their baptism” always applies?

Yes.

In your situation it seems pretty clear there was no intent to join you to the Catholic Church. Therefore, you had a baptism, but not a Catholic one.

 

[1ke]

Does the church consider all of those other examples of marriages that I mentioned “invalid”?

As I already stated, two Buddhists or atheists or whatevers marry validly when they marry civilly.

But the only one the OP maybe shouldn’t attend is the one of the couple who were baptized as kids in the Catholic church?

Or if the marriage involves members of the Orthodox Churches as those would also be invalid if done outside the Orthodox Church.

 

[skigirl1689]

Being baptized into the Catholic Church by a priest or deacon (ordinary minister) or by a designated person (emergency situation).

A highly irregular situation, and I would say you are not a Catholic. If your parents made it clear they did not intend to bring you into communion with the Catholic Church then it is *possible *the priest baptized you without bringing you into the Catholic Church.

The situation would have to have been dire-- as in you were not expected to live long enough for a Lutheran minister to arrive-- I am actually surprised because in such a case the priest *should have *declined and had your parents baptize you themselves. He could have been the witness but should not have actually conferred the baptism.

And, I would also double check the parish in which you were located (i.e. the parish in whose boundaries the hospital or whatever was located) because, who knows, the priest may have indeed recorded a Catholic baptism. In which case, yes, the Church would consider you to be a Catholic.

Yes.

In your situation it seems pretty clear there was no intent to join you to the Catholic Church. Therefore, you had a baptism, but not a Catholic one.

Thanks for the reply! All I knew for years was I was baptized by a hospital chaplain, but my dad once mentioned the chaplain was a priest (perhaps my dad was confused:shrug, my mom was not even present…that’s all I know. I do know time was of the essence as they had to transfer me to a NICU in an different city and my mom only got to see me for a few moments. And then we moved out of state 7 weeks later so I know nothing of the area besides it is a Catholic hospital. I will definitely look into it!

 

[1ke]

I just checked with a priest over at Saint Pat’s Cathedral in NYC on this question…he says it’s okay for her to go to the wedding “in good conscience”.
But perhaps her own priest might say something different.

Well, yes, she needs to talk to her own pastor because we here on the internet do not have all the pertinent facts. I am surprised that a priest would so quickly make such a blanket statement with no facts. Oh well.

 

[ocean33]

You cannot attend an invalid ceremony if there is one person involved who is Catholic. It’s perfectly acceptable to attend other religious ceremonies, because it’s valid in their religion. We are talking about Catholics

So if you had friends who were Muslim, Buddhist or athesist would you not go to their weddings either?

In my opinion you should absolutely go to their wedding and throughout your life you have the opportunity to be the light of Christ in their life, you never know how God wants you to work in their life.

They have the right to be legally wed regardless of what faith they choose to or to not practice, and maybe one day they will enter into the Church together and they can get a valid marriage.

 

[ocean33]

I spoke with my priest about this and he said it would be unacceptable to even attend the wedding. Showing your support for an invalid marriage is a sin, according to him. Why celebrate something that isn’t valid?

No, the wedding would not be valid. I am dealing with this same situation with my brother. My family and I are attending the wedding to show our love and support for them as people and for family harmony, but made it clear that we do not support the way they are getting married, and we made it clear that we would not be able to participate in the wedding as witnesses in the wedding party. We are simply attending. You will get different opinions, and it is not sinful to attend, but it would be sinful if you participated as a witness to an invalid union.

 

[ocean33]

Irresponsible? Of course we can offer advice, especially if we’ve been in the same situation before. I agree it’s wise to speak with a priest, but it’s also ok to ask fellow Catholics their thoughts It’s a tricky situation.

I spoke with my parish priest about attending an invalid marriage involving 1 Catholic, and he said it would be a sin to attend. He said I need to care more about the Church and about my friend going to heaven.

Its not my personal opinion and its not a math problem either. As I said, one should seek counsel from one’s own priest about situations such as the OP’s. There are times when it may be the best thing to attend OR there may be times attending would cause scandal and a Catholic should not attend such an invalid ceremony.

I said if it was me I would not attend such a wedding and I have received counsel on such situations in the past from my own priest and spiritual director.

For any of us to give a definitive answer on whether the OP should attend the wedding or not is irresponsible. The only advice that should be given is for the OP to seek out the advice of their priest. But we can say with absolute certainty it will be an invalid marriage given the details the OP provided no matter what point of view or way any those of us tries to spin it.

 

[maryjk]

Yes, there must be dozens upon dozens of facts.
But good for her to know that I gave the priest all the facts and details she gave us when she posed the question and asked for advice, so she can be confident in that. He said he’s been asked this question, with these specifics, many times. I guess he’s an ol’ hat at this. Sounds like it’s a very common situation.

Of course it is common.

How many people do you know that have been baptized Catholic, but never went to church after that? I know a lot. Most are other religions. And were married in their church.

Not one felt that returning to Catholicism, obtaining the required sacraments, going through Pre Cana classes all to get married in the Catholic church was a good idea. Especially since not one wanted to return to Catholicism in the first place.

Basically we are saying to them, sorry you can’t ever be married because you don’t believe Catholicism is the One True Church.

 

[1ke]

Yes…but why would you say this to only the former-Catholic couple–and in this case, it’s the woman’s relatives–and not say it to anyone else of any other religion?

Because it isn’t true of those of other religions and non-Catholic ecclesial communions. It is true for Catholics & the Orthodox (and other true particular Churches).

 

[1ke]

Basically we are saying to them, sorry you can’t ever be married because you don’t believe Catholicism is the One True Church.

YEP. Baptism is serious business.

 

[maryjk]

YEP. Baptism is serious business.

Too bad not everyone understands this.

Perhaps some of you remember the thread about a woman living with her current lover, but wanting her son from a previous relationship (not marriage) Baptized. Very few people, including at least one deacon, didn’t understand why the priest said no. According to some, the priest was being cruel or mean.

And as many that don’t understand this now, I think it was worst 20 to 30 years ago. Which may be why the priest DaddyGirl spoke to said to attend. He may feel that you catch more flies with honey. Maybe the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

My two cents, which you should take with a grain of salt because I’m not Catholic:

It is ok to go to the wedding. It may be different if they were baptized and raised Catholic and rejected that, and this wedding was a rebellion against what they were always taught about the absolute truths of the universe. But it isn’t. The obligation was given without any of the knowledge, and that is not right. The ones in the wrong here are the parents who chose to baptize without following through with their commitment.

The people getting married don’t know any better, and it would take years of learning followed by preparation to be able to get married validly. Not to mention having never been raised with Catholicism it would be almost impossible for them to see the point of even trying.

This is not a matter of defiance or apathy. Just one of ignorance, that unfortunately there is no real way to rectify.