Can I be a liberal and a Catholic?

[Brendan]

I’m not necessarily suggesting that we take money from the rich, but creating a system where surplus food and resources get to those in need. There should be sharp laws against wastes.

But earlier in the thread, you were calling for taxation.

You’re guessing when you say there would be no gratitude!!! We do not have to build the housing, but provide the technology and resources, much of the resources that we are now taking from them and paying dirt cheap wages for their labor, be given back to them. Again, think of it as an investment where the worldwide workforce is greatly enhance. They can do the building themselves. We owe Third World countries much for their resources and cheap labor.

Robert, if you follow any of my posts, you are probably well familiar with the mission work I do in Tanzania. I have personally seen the difference between when the Church provides for the poor, and when the government does.

There is gratitude in the eyes of the teachers and the students, when I show up with a load of computers for their schools, or of the nuns when I show up with a bag of donated medical supplies.

There is nothing of the sort when a package comes from the government. In one of the cases, I provided computers for the school. The kids could not stop thanking me. The Tanzanian government provided a satellite router. No response. It was an ‘entitlement’ something the school was supposed to have. Something that they were owed and that finally arrived. Sort of how welfare checks in the US are seen. How many of the poor who receive them take the opportunity to thank the rich and middle class workers who provided the check, or is it seen as something that they are due?

And I can tell you, if the government took my money to do the same thing that I was doing, I would feel resentful. St. John Chrysostom was right on the mark with his comments.

How can you possibly say that there would be no gratitude? In economic terms, it would be an investment that gets replaced with a much greater workforce.

Not if it is seen as something that the government owes them, instead of someone personally taking the time to visit with them, and who has spent their own, personal money to help them.

The government way is not the Catholic way, if it was, there would be no Capuchin soup kitchens, or Little Sisters of the Poor nursing homes. The Church would just give all that money to the government. But it does not. The Church views Charity as a personal thing, and we that Christ, in Matthew 25 to thank for that.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Greed and corruption in government, most especially in socialist, communist and dictatorships has kept people enslaved, in poverty and killed millions of innocents. It is purely wishful and delusional thinking that government is the solution. ** It is also not the Christian perspective where we are called to help those in need and call people to account** …to teach people to reject sin and follow Christ. Giving the government control means accepting government morality … moral relativism and acceptance of immorality dictated by government. It places government in the role of God …

“Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered.”
~ Proverbs 21:13

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

1 John 3:17-18
“If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”

“Life’s prime needs are water, bread, and clothing, a house, too, for decent privacy.”
-Sirach 29:21

Isaiah 58:7-10
Thus says the Lord:
Share your bread with the hungry,
and shelter the homeless poor,
clothe the man you see to be naked
and do not turn from your own kin.
Then will your light shine like the dawn
and your wound be quickly healed over.
Your integrity will go before you
and the glory of the Lord behind you.
Cry, and the Lord will answer;
call, and he will say, ‘I am here.’
If you do away with the yoke,
the clenched fist, the wicked word,
if you give your bread to the hungry,
and relief to the oppressed,
your light will rise in the darkness,
and your shadows become like noon.

Gal 5:13 (Douay Rheims)
13 For you, brethren, have been called unto liberty: only make not liberty an occasion to the flesh, but by charity of the spirit serve one another.

At the end of our life, we shall all be judged by charity. - St John of the Cross.

4A beggar’s request do not reject;
do not turn your face away from the poor.
-Sirach 2

27 He who gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.
-Proverbs 28

34
I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35
This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
–John 13:

 

[estesbob]

“Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered.”
~ Proverbs 21:13

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

1 John 3:17-18
“If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”

“Life’s prime needs are water, bread, and clothing, a house, too, for decent privacy.”
-Sirach 29:21

Isaiah 58:7-10
Thus says the Lord:
Share your bread with the hungry,
and shelter the homeless poor,
clothe the man you see to be naked
and do not turn from your own kin.
Then will your light shine like the dawn
and your wound be quickly healed over.
Your integrity will go before you
and the glory of the Lord behind you.
Cry, and the Lord will answer;
call, and he will say, ‘I am here.’
If you do away with the yoke,
the clenched fist, the wicked word,
if you give your bread to the hungry,
and relief to the oppressed,
your light will rise in the darkness,
and your shadows become like noon.

Gal 5:13 (Douay Rheims)
13 For you, brethren, have been called unto liberty: only make not liberty an occasion to the flesh, but by charity of the spirit serve one another.

At the end of our life, we shall all be judged by charity. - St John of the Cross.

4A beggar’s request do not reject;
do not turn your face away from the poor.
-Sirach 2

27 He who gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.
-Proverbs 28

34
I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35
This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
–John 13:

Affirming once again that we cannot delegate our responsibility to care for the poor and needy the government .

 

[Brendan]

Affirming once again that we cannot delegate our responsibility to care for the poor and needy the government .

My thoughts exactly. Everything the Bible says about care for the poor puts it as a personal responsibility, not delegating it to others using other people’s money

 

[Robert_Sock]

My thoughts exactly. Everything the Bible says about care for the poor puts it as a personal responsibility, not delegating it to others using other people’s money

Where in the Bible does it say that the burden is personal, and not government or large corporations? You’re read into Bible what you want to hear.

 

[Richard_White]

There are enough resources in the world where everybody can be fed, housed and educated without taxation, but it’s greed and other forms of evil that prevent it. It’s up to government and large corporations to see to it that these resources get distributed fairly, without profits from the poor who simply have no money. When this happens, everyone will gain from a greatly enhanced worldwide workforce, and corporations could recoup on their charity.The the poor will still be poor, but those who are righteous will reap bountifully from the free gifts of the Holy Spirit which are far more rewarding than materialism.

This sounds like socialism to me. Now, while the idea of everyone sharing everything and no one lacking in anything, as the Apostles were in the very Early Church, sounds amazing and wonderful, we all know that it simply does not work. Human beings have a desire to own things and to lead, causing a vanguard to take control of everything “in the name of the people” and then we have the evils of Communism. Anyway, I digress…

God obviously calls us to help the poor and needy, to this we can all agree. However, as Brendan and Bob have already attested to, this is to be done after a personal conversion of heart to love as God loves and to prove assistance to the “least of our brethren.” Are welfare, Social Security, etc very important government programs on this day and age, yes. But, we cannot use the government to go into our personal lives, dictating how we are to spend our money and distribute our own personal resources. As Saint John Christostom said in the aforementioned quote, this will only lead to bitterness on the part of the giver, and a sense of entitlement on the part of the recipient, who believes that the donation is merely what he is due.

And this is why we have free will isn’t it? So that our following God in His Catholic Faith is not merely something we HAVE to do, but that when we say our yes to God, it truly comes from the heart and is a real, total conversion of our innermost being. In this way, it is so much greater, and such sentiments cross over to the idea of charity as well.

May God bless you all!

 

[Richard_White]

Where in the Bible does it say that the burden is personal, and not government or large corporations? You’re read into Bible what you want to hear.

No offense, but by that logic, I believe the same can be said of you. Where you do see it say in the Bible that the government should direct our charity?

 

[Robert_Sock]

No offense, but by that logic, I believe the same can be said of you. Where you do see it say in the Bible that the government should direct our charity?

This thread is going in circles. I already cited Ezekiel, but everybody shrugs it off. The problem needs to be effectively dealt with if we wish to do the work of God.

 

[estesbob]

Where in the Bible does it say that the burden is personal, and not government or large corporations? You’re read into Bible what you want to hear.

Well every single one of the scripture quote you gave referred to a personal responsibility . Do you have some passages that instruct that we must support government programs ?

 

[Brendan]

Where in the Bible does it say that the burden is personal, and not government or large corporations? You’re read into Bible what you want to hear.

Do Corporations and governments go to Heaven?

If not, who is Christ talking to in Matthew 25?

Will I find General Motors in Heaven, because GM visited the sick? If Bank of America visits someone in jail, will it go to Heaven?

Who are the sheep and the goats that Christ talks about, other than people, individual people, not governments and corporations.

I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.

Can a corporation ‘love’? Can a government? People can, legalities cannot, and that is what both corporations and govenments are, legalities, things create by people. Things do not love, any more than a pebble on a beach can love.

So if you think your quotes refer to corporations and governments, you are quite mistaken. They cannot fulfill any of the commandments that you outlined, only people can.

 

[Adonia]

Where in the Bible does it say that the burden is personal, and not government or large corporations? You’re read into Bible what you want to hear.

It’s up to the government, OUR government to stick to the enumerated powers the Constitution grants it. It grants it no such power of charitable giving, of taking money earned by it’s citizens to re-distribute. That’s Socialism, Communism, or whatever, but it is definitely not the system of government the Founding Fathers gave us.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Do Corporations and governments go to Heaven?

If not, who is Christ talking to in Matthew 25?

Will I find General Motors in Heaven, because GM visited the sick? If Bank of America visits someone in jail, will it go to Heaven?

Who are the sheep and the goats that Christ talks about, other than people, individual people, not governments and corporations.

Can a corporation ‘love’? Can a government? People can, legalities cannot, and that is what both corporations and govenments are, legalities, things create by people. Things do not love, any more than a pebble on a beach can love.

So if you think your quotes refer to corporations and governments, you are quite mistaken. They cannot fulfill any of the commandments that you outlined, only people can.

The government and corporations are made up of individuals who are responsible. Who does the government govern if not the people in a fair and just manner. When 9,500 die each day due to malnourishment, the individuals with power in government ought not turn there heads and look the other way. The same goes for corporations.

 

[Brendan]

The government and corporations are made up of individuals who are responsible. Who does the government govern if not the people in a fair and just manner. When 9,500 die each day due to malnourishment, the individuals with power in government ought not turn there heads and look the other way. The same goes for corporations.

I agree, and that is why St. John Chrysostom called for the changing of hearts, not the taking of wealth.

And if they choose to look the other way, then they can walk away sad, just like the Rich Young Man did when confronted by Christ.

But like Christ, we are to all them to remain in their sorrow and pray for their conversion, not to send agents after them to take their wealth and give it to the poor.

Christ, being God, knew how much benefit the young man’s wealth would bring to the poor, and how much suffering the poor would encounter because of the man’s decision. And yet, Christ allowed the man to make that decision, to keep his wealth, his property, his stores of food. And we must do the same, if we are to be like Christ.

 

[styrgwillidar]

We, the folks pushing for more funding from the government aren’t using our own money via taxation, or taking money from people like the rich out of coveting what they’ve earned. Our greed or desire to help others at any cost has exceed those bounds.

usdebtclock.org/

The US is ~20 Trillion in debt with a total of ~102 Trillion with a T in unfunded liabilities at the federal level. You can add in state government and local government debt on top of that. That money isn’t coming from us the current generation, we can’t even hope to pay it off. Every dollar we’re now racking up is being placed on kids including children not yet born. Folks who’ve had no say in our largesse. So in addition to discussing whether its a government or personal obligation we can discuss whether its a current generation’s problem and if we in fact have the right to take wealth not yet created to use as our charity within our own generation.

 

[GEddie]

We, the folks pushing for more funding from the government aren’t using our own money via taxation, or taking money from people like the rich out of coveting what they’ve earned. Our greed or desire to help others at any cost has exceed those bounds.

usdebtclock.org/

The US is ~20 Trillion in debt with a total of ~102 Trillion with a T in unfunded liabilities at the federal level. You can add in state government and local government debt on top of that. That money isn’t coming from us the current generation, we can’t even hope to pay it off. Every dollar we’re now racking up is being placed on kids including children not yet born. Folks who’ve had no say in our largesse. So in addition to discussing whether its a government or personal obligation we can discuss whether its a current generation’s problem and if we in fact have the right to take wealth not yet created to use as our charity within our own generation.

Every time a country gets into a war, it runs up debt that will appear generationally. Better to make peace, and run up debt doing good, than to take the conservative route of war after war after war.

While I agree that Robin Hood holding the tax man’s gun is not what our LORD had in mind, I would rather see our resources used to uphold life for our citizens, than to invade and conquer other countries (whose citizens will NOT thank us, whatever Kool Aid we are served).

We need a leadership that will make peace with our international neighbors. But that leadership won’t be headed by HRC or Trump.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

I agree, and that is why St. John Chrysostom called for the changing of hearts, not the taking of wealth.

And if they choose to look the other way, then they can walk away sad, just like the Rich Young Man did when confronted by Christ.

But like Christ, we are to all them to remain in their sorrow and pray for their conversion, not to send agents after them to take their wealth and give it to the poor.

Christ, being God, knew how much benefit the young man’s wealth would bring to the poor, and how much suffering the poor would encounter because of the man’s decision. And yet, Christ allowed the man to make that decision, to keep his wealth, his property, his stores of food. And we must do the same, if we are to be like Christ.

You’re missing much of my point. The government must enact laws where food is in the abundance but thrown away. The food was grown on this earth and belongs to us all. As for building materials and education, the government and corporate leaders must have the incentive to teach those in poverty in such a way that they become self sufficient and contribute to the workforce of the world in such a way that we all benefit from their labor… but in a fair and just manner.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Well every single one of the scripture quote you gave referred to a personal responsibility . Do you have some passages that instruct that we must support government programs ?

When it comes to opposing abortion, you are all too ready to make that a governmental program. Are we personally responsible for what our government does? Think about this question for both abortion and for caring for the poor.

Personal responsibility is actualized in many ways. One of them is supporting governmental programs that do what our personal belief calls for.

 

[GEddie]

When it comes to opposing abortion, you are all too ready to make that a governmental program. Are we personally responsible for what our government does? Think about this question for both abortion and for caring for the poor.

Government’s proper function is to make laws. Laws restrain unjust actions, such as abortion.

Laws to require tending to the poor are more problematic.

 

[MarkInOregon]

The Federal government has no right to take money from my personal labor to help YOUR favorite charities or causes. NO RIGHT WHASOEVER! It is not my mission here on earth to work hard so that the government can take more and more of my money and give it to others. Such an action is completely and totally immoral, and that is the major problem we have in this country. Leave me my money and the freedom to contribute to the charities I choose.

Whose money is it? Yours? "Then they handed him the Roman coin. He said to them, ‘Whose image is this and whose inscription?’ They replied, ‘Caesar’s.’ At that he said to them, ‘Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.’ (Mt 22:19b-21) “Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when other are in need…True, no one is commanded to distribute to others that which is required for his own needs and those of his household; nor even to give away what is reasonably required to keep up becomingly his condition in life…But, when what necessity demands has been supplied, and one’s standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over…It is duty, not of justice (save in extreme cases), but of Christian charity–a duty not enforced by human law…” (Pope Leo XIII in Rerum Novarum). I cannot help but think that if more of us, as Christians, had actually lived this–the world we live in would be a different place, and many of the government programs we see today would not exist because they would not have been necessary. Many of the problems in the Western world today are the direct result of so many of us professed Christians failing to live Christian lives–lives transformed by the Gospel. It’s often difficult to see a difference in the daily lives of professed Christians with those of non Christians–and that’s a problem. When I look in the mirror I see a part of the problem.

Here’s the deal–any one purchasing a home and claiming a mortgage interest & property tax deduction is having their house purchase subsidized by the government. Our ability to earn money is enhanced by living in safe and stable country, by the interstate highway system, by local roads, by local fire and police protection. The tax dollars of others help provide this to us. If we were educated in a public school–we benefited from other peoples tax dollars. We often underestimate the benefits we receive from other peoples tax dollars. Part of the cost of our freedom to do with our money as we wish is tax dollars. I don’t like paying taxes but I also think it’s disingenuous of me to rail against the government providing food stamps or the EIC to low income people while I avail myself of various tax breaks that subsidize my house purchase, schooling, etc.–especially if it is possible I am meeting my leisure or comfort desires rather than simply my needs before giving to charity to eliminate hunger, homelessness and lack of medical care. I think if we take care of our own house–eventually we can transform the whole neighborhood.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Government’s proper function is to make laws. Laws restrain unjust actions, such as abortion.

Laws to require tending to the poor are more problematic.

Look at Luke 16, starting with vs 19. Tell me if ignoring the needs of Lazarus was an unjust thing to do.