Can I be a liberal and a Catholic?

[Brendan]

Where does the Church stand on this? I doubt very much that it’s accepted by the Church. I especially suspect that the Church would condemn our throwing food out instead of feeding the hungry.

I never said that anyone should throw away good food.

And where is the Church on the government and large corporations responsibility for educating and housing those in deep poverty? Does not the government have a right to tax its citizens and businesses? Even during the time of Christ the Romans collected taxes.

yes the government has the right to tax.

But the question is that of who is responsible for feeding the poor, which is a different question.

The answer to that is found in John 21

Who was Christ speaking to when He said “Feed my sheep” , was it to Peter ( the Church) or to Caesar ( the government)

Who did Christ give that responsibility to?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I never said that anyone should throw away good food.

yes the government has the right to tax.

But the question is that of who is responsible for feeding the poor, which is a different question.

The answer to that is found in John 21

Who was Christ speaking to when He said “Feed my sheep” , was it to Peter ( the Church) or to Caesar ( the government)

Who did Christ give that responsibility to?

It was to the Church, but I personally never took that quote literally, but I viewed it as “feeding” people (the flock) with the Word of God. This is our responsibility too.

 

[estesbob]

This does not make sense. How can there even be a government response if the people do not support their government? Saying that people need not support specific actions of their government is exactly the same as saying those very actions of government should not be. So you can’t can’t say the question is not this, but that, because both this and that are the same question.

I am referring to the individual Catholic. We have a personal responsibility to help the poor and needy. We have no responsibility at all to support govt programs to help the poor and needy and even if we do support them that is in no way an act of charity

 

[LeafByNiggle]

We have no responsibility at all to support govt programs to help the poor and needy…

If by “support” you mean “be a cheerleader for and lobby for or vote for”, then you are right. But if by “support” you mean willingly pay our taxes, part of which may fund those govt programs, then we have the normal responsibility of abiding by the decisions made by our government, so long as they don’t require us to sin. This is like our responsibility to pay taxes to fund a war that we do not agree with.

…and even if we do support them that is in no way an act of charity

Of course not. I never said it was.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If by “support” you mean “be a cheerleader for and lobby for or vote for”, then you are right. But if by “support” you mean willingly pay our taxes, part of which may fund those govt programs, then we have the normal responsibility of abiding by the decisions made by our government, so long as they don’t require us to sin. This is like our responsibility to pay taxes to fund a war that we do not agree with.

Of course not. I never said it was.

 

[Adonia]

Whose money is it? Yours? "Then they handed him the Roman coin. He said to them, ‘Whose image is this and whose inscription?’ They replied, ‘Caesar’s.’ At that he said to them, ‘Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.’ (Mt 22:19b-21) “Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when other are in need…True, no one is commanded to distribute to others that which is required for his own needs and those of his household; nor even to give away what is reasonably required to keep up becomingly his condition in life…But, when what necessity demands has been supplied, and one’s standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over…It is duty, not of justice (save in extreme cases), but of Christian charity–a duty not enforced by human law…” (Pope Leo XIII in Rerum Novarum). I cannot help but think that if more of us, as Christians, had actually lived this–the world we live in would be a different place, and many of the government programs we see today would not exist because they would not have been necessary. Many of the problems in the Western world today are the direct result of so many of us professed Christians failing to live Christian lives–lives transformed by the Gospel. It’s often difficult to see a difference in the daily lives of professed Christians with those of non Christians–and that’s a problem. When I look in the mirror I see a part of the problem.

Here’s the deal–any one purchasing a home and claiming a mortgage interest & property tax deduction is having their house purchase subsidized by the government. Our ability to earn money is enhanced by living in safe and stable country, by the interstate highway system, by local roads, by local fire and police protection. The tax dollars of others help provide this to us. If we were educated in a public school–we benefited from other peoples tax dollars. We often underestimate the benefits we receive from other peoples tax dollars. Part of the cost of our freedom to do with our money as we wish is tax dollars. I don’t like paying taxes but I also think it’s disingenuous of me to rail against the government providing food stamps or the EIC to low income people while I avail myself of various tax breaks that subsidize my house purchase, schooling, etc.–especially if it is possible I am meeting my leisure or comfort desires rather than simply my needs before giving to charity to eliminate hunger, homelessness and lack of medical care. I think if we take care of our own house–eventually we can transform the whole neighborhood.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The money might be the government’s, but my labors are my own and any requirement for me to pay more than what is required to run the government according to the limited powers granted to it by the Constitution turns me from a free citizen into a slave.

As for your home deduction example you are right on the mark. That is why we need to scrap the current tax system and go to either a flat tax or a consumption tax. Enough already of an over intrusive government.

 

[MarkInOregon]

The money might be the government’s, but my labors are my own and any requirement for me to pay more than what is required to run the government according to the limited powers granted to it by the Constitution turns me from a free citizen into a slave.

As for your home deduction example you are right on the mark. That is why we need to scrap the current tax system and go to either a flat tax or a consumption tax. Enough already of an over intrusive government.

A flat tax doesn’t address the issue I am sorry to say. That’s simply something that sounds good in the abstract but all it is is a rate change. With a flat tax you still need to define what income is–so that you know what you’re taxing–unless one is proposing a gross receipts tax–which I think has it’s own problems–for example if a business grosses $10 million but it costs them $11 million to earn it they’ve lost $1 million but they would still be taxed on the $10 million at whatever the gross receipts tax rate was even though they were losing money–at a 1% rate they’d owe $100,000 in tax on a $1 million loss. With an income tax you need to determine what income is – and that’s more challenging than one might imagine. For the vast majority of American wage earners who get a W-2 for income and maybe a mortgage interest deduction–the codes not complicated and the return is easy to complete. The flat tax sounds good on a bumper sticker but doesn’t actually address the core issue. A consumption tax – depending how it is constructed–can be regressive.

Yes I find the government intrusive at times, but I also know that much of the regulation that we have is the result of the actions of many of our citizens. We don’t get building regulations and codes out of thin air or to make life difficult for builders–we get them because people cut corners and build unsafe buildings that then collapse from faulty construction or go up in flames from faulty wiring. So while the regulations might seem intrusive, the inspections time consuming, the fees annoying–we have them because of our own bad behavior. We don’t get labor laws because employers were treating their employees fairly… but this takes us to a whole different discussion and this thread has already wandered far off track. I repeat what I said earlier–I think if most professed Christians (myself included) had truly lived our faith–there would have been little need for much of the government regulation and oversight that you see today. I don’t think protecting it’s citizens from abuse by other citizens falls outside the scope of the Constitution.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The money might be the government’s, but my labors are my own and any requirement for me to pay more than what is required to run the government according to the limited powers granted to it by the Constitution turns me from a free citizen into a slave.

Hyperbole.

 

[MarkInOregon]

The money might be the government’s, but my labors are my own and any requirement for me to pay more than what is required to run the government according to the limited powers granted to it by the Constitution turns me from a free citizen into a slave.

.

Perhaps we could start a thread regarding what it means to be a “slave” and perhaps if anyone is interested in discussing the powers granted by the constitution–a new thread would be in order.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

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