Can I be a nun if I am not from US but I live here illegaly?

[Valmabar]

Again, what is unjust about the immigration law?

You may don’t know but does not exist a immigration law for 99.9% of the immigrants who come here. America need immgrants but some people oppose it without knowing nothing about what’s going on or for be xenophobe. It is impossible to go back and wait for an answer overseas. Many people tried do it and already is in a limbo state for years. Some simply took the way back in the illegal way.

Although is written in the Bible that we must abide by the laws, we can’t be always blind legalists. Is the law of Moses unjust? Why though the Machabees fought on Saturdays? Why Jesus did miracles on the forbidden day? Why the first Christians stood Christinas while was forbidden to them practice their religion?

The answer is simply. Not only bad laws can be broken when necessary. Even good laws don’t attend all the situations it is design for.

As some people don’t know what really is going on, they lack charity to their neighbor as being to much of legalist.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You may don’t know but does not exist a immigration law for 99.9% of the immigrants who come here. America need immgrants but some people oppose it without knowing nothing about what’s going on or for be xenophobe. It is impossible to go back and wait for an answer overseas. Many people tried do it and already is in a limbo state for years. Some simply took the way back in the illegal way.

Although is written in the Bible that we must abide by the laws, we can’t be always blind legalists. Is the law of Moses unjust? Why though the Machabees fought on Saturdays? Why Jesus did miracles on the forbidden day? Why the first Christians stood Christinas while was forbidden to them practice their religion?

The answer is simply. Not only bad laws can be broken when necessary. Even good laws don’t attend all the situations it is design for.

As some people don’t know what really is going on, they lack charity to their neighbor as being to much of legalist.

You are making a judgment against those who say that the immigration law is just. You assume that we do not know as much as you on the issue so we must be “legalists”.

This is unchristian and uncharitable not to mention ignorant. You assume that those who disagree with you do so because they do not know as much as you.

 

[Valmabar]

You are making a judgment against those who say that the immigration law is just. You assume that we do not know as much as you on the issue so we must be “legalists”.

This is unchristian and uncharitable not to mention ignorant. You assume that those who disagree with you do so because they do not know as much as you.

 I am sorry if you took my words as personal. I don't do that specially in this case. I came to US and I was fairly treated before and after my legalization. 

 I think the thread 40 from Izuluaga 89 can clarify a little about what I mean. She speaks only about a broken hearth. It is already a big burden. I speak about interfere against God's Will. You have to decide what is more important to obey God's Will or human will? I don't think God will be cheering for the ones that think His Calling can be put on hold because the human will is interfering with That. 

 I would also remember that, Jesus forgave a adulterous woman. By the law she were under the penalty of death. To be illegal is not even a crime. It is a trespassing. 

 But one thing I am sure you don't understand yet. The consequences of have not a comprehensible law for immigration in this country is brooking not only hearts. Is brooken marriages and families; is creating unecessary fears; is killing lives. Is done everything God forbade us. Every one of those transgressions can be counted in a millions.

 You also would open more your mind and remember that, our churchs in China are outlaw. And the papacy permited to secretily ordain bishops in there. O don't think God have different laws to different countries.

 

[tzmike]

Legalized abortion is the law of the land, though

Nuns need to abide only by the just laws of their country.

Are you implying that immigration laws are unjust? Every country has a right to it’s own sovereinty. And if every person decided that they would only obey the laws that they thought were just there would be chaos and anarchy. How would laws be enforced if they were subjective to each and every individual?

 

[Valmabar]

Are you implying that immigration laws are unjust? Every country has a right to it’s own sovereinty. And if every person decided that they would only obey the laws that they thought were just there would be chaos and anarchy. How would laws be enforced if they were subjective to each and every individual?

I would never generalize it. As a person of law you also need to be sensible to the loud cry on the back street.

When one person break a law he need to be accounted for it. When one thousand do the same, you need to light your alert sense and start to ask yourself, why they are doing it? But when 12 millions or more does (4% of the American population) you can not have doubt on that, Is something wrong within that law.

What I know is that, If all the undocumented get out of United States in a little space of an year, the structure of this country will be down as a castle of cards. Does not matter the motivation for it to come. If the country is being bad with them, would be worse without them.

It is not a question of legality or illegality. It is a question of providence. We need not always follow our hearts without consult our brains.

In our particular case, I don’t think the undocumented people are the problem. What they need is the opportunity for to prove it. We don’t have a fair law for them. And they are in a limbo state of life because of that. If the congress had pass the McCain/Kennedy Comprehensive Law for the immigration I would understand if the administration deported all of those that refused abide for it.

 

[tzmike]

I would never generalize it. As a person of law you also need to be sensible to the loud cry on the back street.

QUOTE: When one person break a law he need to be accounted for it. When one thousand do the same, you need to light your alert sense and start to ask yourself, why they are doing it? But when 12 millions or more does (4% of the American population) you can not have doubt on that, Is something wrong within that law.

ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUOTE: The number of people breaking a law is not a measurement of how just a law is. There are thousands who go looting during chatastrophic power outages or natural disasters because the police can not respond effectively in those situations. How many thousands commit crimes every year to fuel their drug habits? That doesn’t make me question the validity or wisdom of our laws.

QUOTE: What I know is that, If all the undocumented get out of United States in a little space of an year, the structure of this country will be down as a castle of cards. Does not matter the motivation for it to come. If the country is being bad with them, would be worse without them.

ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUOTE: You over estimate the importance of illegals in this coutry. They are more of a drain on our system then a benefit. Here’s some statistics for you:
$ 90 billion dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for welfare and social services by the American tax payer
30% of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
$12 billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary education for children here illegally and they can not speak a word of english.
$200 billion dollars a year in supressed American wages are caused by illegal aliens.
In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 billion in remittences to their countries of origen. I can give you the source of this info so you can check it out on your own.

QUOTE: It is not a question of legality or illegality. It is a question of providence. We need not always follow our hearts without consult our brains.

ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUOTE: It IS a question of legality or illegality and providence can play a part.

QUOTE: In our particular case, I don’t think the undocumented people are the problem. What they need is the opportunity for to prove it. We don’t have a fair law for them. And they are in a limbo state of life because of that. If the congress had pass the McCain/Kennedy Comprehensive Law for the immigration I would understand if the administration deported all of those that refused abide for it.

ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUOTE: In our particular case undocumented people are a major problem. They don’t pay income tax but enjoy all the benefits paid for by taxes: Firemen, Police protection, Garbage men to take away their garbage, paved roads to drive on, street lights, traffic signals, welfare benefits, etc. etc.

You are letting your sympathies be your guide and not logic. The whole world wants to live in America but America can not support the whole worlds population. Common sense.

 

[tzmike]

General note: I don’t know how to use the quote function and intersperse it with my answers without having my answers included in the quote block. That’s why I had to write “QUOTE” and “ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUOTE”

 

[Valmabar]

ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUOTE: In our particular case undocumented people are a major problem. They don’t pay income tax but enjoy all the benefits paid for by taxes: Firemen, Police protection, Garbage men to take away their garbage, paved roads to drive on, street lights, traffic signals, welfare benefits, etc. etc.

You are letting your sympathies be your guide and not logic. The whole world wants to live in America but America can not support the whole worlds population. Common sense.

 I am sorry for you. You poor soul! 
 Maybe the quantity of people breaking a law is not a measurement of the goodness or not of the law but it is indicator. I don't even understand why some people uses drugs but I know for sure that the laws that does exists are not effectively combating it. 
 The drugs are great profit for the traficants. But it is not so expensive for to produce. If the society represented by the administrations acquired it from a legalized market and had a system for distribution to the users while in the same time being treated would be less expensive, more secure and more smart to everybody. 

 Your statistics are so wrong. Is not the undocumented immigration that causes the expenses. If you legalize everybody the people who are afraid of be part of the society will start to participate. Nobody want come for take what is yours. If everybody were legalized the wages would be fair, more people were investing in the economy and the market of jobs would be better for those that are unemployed. The 45 billions you claim is been sent to another countries, they don't go and stay always there. You can be an economist but probably not a good one. The money that flys to overseas reinforce the economies of the poor countries. And the people start to buy Coca-cola, Pepsy, cars from Chevrolet, Ford, Jeep, they start to buy gas from Texaco, they start to buy televisions, laundrymatics, freezers and tecnological things which pays royalties to the American industries. And it come back. Without the money there it will never happen.
 Also, the children that Americans are paying for the education will stay here and will take care of the retired people later. Otherwise, United States spent nothing in education for the adult immigrants who came to here but is getting they hard and intellectual work.

 I never told nothing about the whole world. If America had expent wisely all the money that were transferred to it in the period known as New Colonialism maybe we had a less situation of poverty in the whole world, the Americans had the United States only for themselves (just for the xenophobes) and everybody had lived happely every after.

 I think my brother you need to open your mind a little. Think about it. You probably want go to Heaven. I assume it because all of us Catholics have it in common. In my conception of Heaven we don't have borders, all of us got the same Father and nobody is forbid of come and go whatever the place. Do you think is there a place for any xenophobe people on God's Right Side?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am sorry for you. You poor soul!
Maybe the quantity of people breaking a law is not a measurement of the goodness or not of the law but it is indicator.

I do not agree with this at all.

The breaking of a law is no indicator at all as to the goodness of it. It just shows the amount of contempt for that law that is held in general society.

 

[KingTheoden]

In my view, conservative-oriented people seem to have two primary areas that often lack in charity: the plight of foreign nationals and the severe effects of how the United States prosecutes war.

I am very, very conservative and find myself confused why so many others with such a mindset adopt extreme nationalism that allots such misplaced faith in a political framework that consistently demonstrates itself to be woefully corrupt.

A close runner up is how people who made mistakes early in life are looked down upon (yes, that is dangling preposition; I cannot avoid it!). I really feel that these three areas are holding back a complete conservative/traditional resurgence. We need to have a rounded view of things and be careful not to get whipped up into political frenzies or allow worldly concerns to overcome us.

If we remember that where there is love and charity, there is the Lord, we truly can save the world.

Returning to the initial topic, I unfortunately cannot offer informed advice. I am sure that there are priests who can help direct you. I also know that immigration laws in the United States are unfair and are written for the benefit of commercial interests who can exploit undocumented workers while the process for becoming documented is unnecessarily arduous.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

In my view, conservative-oriented people seem to have two primary areas that often lack in charity: the plight of foreign nationals and the severe effects of how the United States prosecutes war.

I am a conservative in most issues. I have a problem with illegal immigration. What I find annoying is those who assume that my problem with illegal immigration means that I lack charity in the plight of foreign nationals.

The plight of foreign nationals has nothing to do with illegal immigration, there is an avenue for those to enter the country legally.

 

[tzmike]

I am sorry for you. You poor soul!

 Your statistics are so wrong. Is not the undocumented immigration that causes the expenses. If you legalize everybody the people who are afraid of be part of the society will start to participate. Nobody want come for take what is yours. If everybody were legalized the wages would be fair, more people were investing in the economy and the market of jobs would be better for those that are unemployed. The 45 billions you claim is been sent to another countries, they don't go and stay always there. You can be an economist but probably not a good one. The money that flys to overseas reinforce the economies of the poor countries. And the people start to buy Coca-cola, Pepsy, cars from Chevrolet, Ford, Jeep, they start to buy gas from Texaco, they start to buy televisions, laundrymatics, freezers and tecnological things which pays royalties to the American industries. And it come back. Without the money there it will never happen.
 Also, the children that Americans are paying for the education will stay here and will take care of the retired people later. Otherwise, United States spent nothing in education for the adult immigrants who came to here but is getting they hard and intellectual work.

 I never told nothing about the whole world. If America had expent wisely all the money that were transferred to it in the period known as New Colonialism maybe we had a less situation of poverty in the whole world, the Americans had the United States only for themselves (just for the xenophobes) and everybody had lived happely every after.

 I think my brother you need to open your mind a little. Think about it. You probably want go to Heaven. I assume it because all of us Catholics have it in common. In my conception of Heaven we don't have borders, all of us got the same Father and nobody is forbid of come and go whatever the place. Do you think is there a place for any xenophobe people on God's Right Side?

Your feelings of sorrow are greatly misplaced. You should feel sorry for yourself because you have no clue about what you’re talking about. And you don’t need to worry about the state of MY soul. I’ll take care of that. You should worry about the state of your own soul.

The statistics I qouted are facts, not opinions. Just because you don’t like them and say that they are wrong won’t change their validity. And the facts I’ve quoted are only the tip of the iceberg. There’s much more. You say “Nobody want come for take what is yours” but when they come here illegally they take what they didn’t pay for or pay into (welfare and all the other services paid for by taxes that I mentioned in my first post).

Also, your attempt to insult me by saying “You can be an economist but probably not a good one” doesn’t change the fact that everything I wrote is true.

You imply that America is responsible for the worlds poverty because of a period known as “New Colonialism” which is just a theory proposed by anti-Americans. But this is a discussion for a different thread.

And lastly, it is YOU who needs to open YOUR mind. You are letting your emotions dictate your beliefs and not the facts. And you’re right that I do want to go to heaven as I want all people to go(eternity is a long time). But Heaven does have borders of a sort that separate it from Purgatory and Hell, just as earth has borders that separate different countries from eachother.

 

[tzmike]

In my view, conservative-oriented people seem to have two primary areas that often lack in charity: the plight of foreign nationals and the severe effects of how the United States prosecutes war.

Conservatives are very concerned with the plight of foreign nationals, that’s why we’re willing to fight for their freedoms. It’s liberal minded people that have no concern for the plight of foreign nationals unless they’re breaking Americas immigration laws and coming here illegally.
As far as how the United States conducts wars is concerned, America is so cautious to prevent collateral damage and preserve the safety of innocent lives that we sometimes put our own soldiers lives at stake. But nothing is fool proof. America should conduct wars the way EVERY nation coducts them: with the aim of victory. Unfortunately America is held to a different standard than other countries. But this is a topic for another thread. I’m only answering it because you posted a comment about it.

 

[Valmabar]

I do not agree with this at all.

The breaking of a law is no indicator at all as to the goodness of it. It just shows the amount of contempt for that law that is held in general society.

Maybe your problem is to think that a human law is better than God’s Will. Every human law as the human being themselves is not perfect so, the high percentage of people who broke a law is evidence for what is wrong on it. I am not talking about the goodness on the intentions. But sometimes only after you put your ideas in practice the imperfections are shown. If you think that, the immigration law in US is perfect is because yourself is not in need for use it. You are been only selfish.

 

[tzmike]

Maybe your problem is to think that a human law is better than God’s Will. Every human law as the human being themselves is not perfect so, the high percentage of people who broke a law is evidence for what is wrong on it. I am not talking about the goodness on the intentions. But sometimes only after you put your ideas in practice the imperfections are shown. If you think that, the immigration law in US is perfect is because yourself is not in need for use it. You are been only selfish.

Maybe YOUR problem is thinking that all human laws are contrary to God’s will. Again, the high percentage of law breakers is NO indication that the law is flawed, but that those who break them are. As you yourself mentioned the imperfection of human beings.
Just because the majority of Americans want our sovereignty and our laws respected doesn’t mean we’re selfish, it’s a matter of our national and cultural survival. Self preservation is an instinct that God instilled in ALL people. Or do you find that part of God’s will unjust?
Why don’t all the illegal aliens try to improve their own countries instead of coming here illegally and then expecting/demanding rights granted to it’s citizens. Because it’s easier to break OUR laws than to improve THEIR countries and make it better for their children and grand children.
And Americans don’t believe our immigration laws are perfect. If they were we’d be able to curtail the number of illegals in America.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Maybe your problem is to think that a human law is better than God’s Will. Every human law as the human being themselves is not perfect so, the high percentage of people who broke a law is evidence for what is wrong on it. I am not talking about the goodness on the intentions. But sometimes only after you put your ideas in practice the imperfections are shown. If you think that, the immigration law in US is perfect is because yourself is not in need for use it. You are been only selfish.

Again, you are judging what is within my heart.

I will say it again, doing such a thing is uncharitable, unchristian, and ignorant.

 

[KingTheoden]

Respect for the law is very important and as governments have a duty to write laws in ways that legal codes are fair, equitable, and can reasonably be followed.

Unfortunately, I think the immigration situation in the United States is very complex while being reduced to generalizations. Furthermore, the federal government has a history of allowing those in our country without proper documentation to gain amnesty as was done in 1986. This sends a very mixed message to nations of immigrants.

Furthermore, it is not as if the United States government is entirely innocent in why so many people feel the need to come to America. In the case of Mexico, the American government has a history of getting deeply involved in the former’s politics. It was our government that supported the anti-Catholic Juarez and, at times, the anti-Catholic regime in the 20th century. More recently, NAFTA ensured various benefits for major American banks in Mexico.

So we do need to bring perspective to the situation.

I also know that going through the legal process is, to be polite, beyond arduous. When someone is in a very tough place in their life, I question how reasonable it is (or how charitable) to order them into a mess of a bureaucratic process.

It is very important for all parties that we end illegal immigration because those without documentation are easily exploited, it is hard to have equal competition in labor markets otherwise, and we need respect for the law.

There is a strain of bigotry in **some ** quarters on the side of those most opposed to immigration. A look at some of the members of the MinuteMen and their activities clearly demonstrates such.

Something to keep in mind is that immigration from Mexico has had the positive effect of spreading the faith.

 

[Valmabar]

Your feelings of sorrow are greatly misplaced. You should feel sorry for yourself because you have no clue about what you’re talking about. And you don’t need to worry about the state of MY soul. I’ll take care of that. You should worry about the state of your own soul.

On contrary. I know exactly what I am doing. And I have to worry about all souls because of them are from Our Father.

The statistics I qouted are facts, not opinions. Just because you don’t like them and say that they are wrong won’t change their validity. And the facts I’ve quoted are only the tip of the iceberg. There’s much more. You say “Nobody want come for take what is yours” but when they come here illegally they take what they didn’t pay for or pay into (welfare and all the other services paid for by taxes that I mentioned in my first post).

Again, you talk only about money. If your statistics say the undocumented immigrant is costing, lets say that, US$ 300 billions, and you say that is one reason for each dollar expended, then I say to you It is 100 more reasons for to legalize the people, one for each cent.

Also, your attempt to insult me by saying “You can be an economist but probably not a good one” doesn’t change the fact that everything I wrote is true.

I wasn’t attempting to insult you. I was just saying the facts. In your statistics you analyse
only the money that goes overseas and ignores what come back. Is is not economy. It is only a partial understanding of the question.

You imply that America is responsible for the worlds poverty because of a period known as “New Colonialism” which is just a theory proposed by anti-Americans. But this is a discussion for a different thread.

I never said America is responsible for the world’s poverty. The economic system which United State is part of had done it. It is not a anti-Americans theory. You are using the words only for to excuse what wrong were done.

And lastly, it is YOU who needs to open YOUR mind. You are letting your emotions dictate your beliefs and not the facts. And you’re right that I do want to go to heaven as I want all people to go(eternity is a long time). But Heaven does have borders of a sort that separate it from Purgatory and Hell, just as earth has borders that separate different countries from eachother.

My mind is already open. I don’t have emotions except for love. I love you and everybody who think different of me. You say that Heaven have borders as on earth, then I ask you, what passaport you will use to go there? I will put another thread were I will prove you that you are wrong on your conceptions.

 

[tzmike]

Respect for the law is very important and as governments have a duty to write laws in ways that legal codes are fair, equitable, and can reasonably be followed.

Unfortunately, I think the immigration situation in the United States is very complex while being reduced to generalizations. Furthermore, the federal government has a history of allowing those in our country without proper documentation to gain amnesty as was done in 1986. This sends a very mixed message to nations of immigrants.

Furthermore, it is not as if the United States government is entirely innocent in why so many people feel the need to come to America. In the case of Mexico, the American government has a history of getting deeply involved in the former’s politics. It was our government that supported the anti-Catholic Juarez and, at times, the anti-Catholic regime in the 20th century. More recently, NAFTA ensured various benefits for major American banks in Mexico.

So we do need to bring perspective to the situation.

I also know that going through the legal process is, to be polite, beyond arduous. When someone is in a very tough place in their life, I question how reasonable it is (or how charitable) to order them into a mess of a bureaucratic process.

It is very important for all parties that we end illegal immigration because those without documentation are easily exploited, it is hard to have equal competition in labor markets otherwise, and we need respect for the law.

There is a strain of bigotry in **some ** quarters on the side of those most opposed to immigration. A look at some of the members of the MinuteMen and their activities clearly demonstrates such.

Something to keep in mind is that immigration from Mexico has had the positive effect of spreading the faith.

You speak of generalizations being made in regards to immigration and then you made a glaringly false generalization in regards to the Minute Men. They are NOT racist. These men live on the border where their property becomes a pedestrian highway. Their property is damaged, the illegals leave garbage and human waste, they break into the minute men’s homes looking for food or whatever they need or want. The Minute Men are protecting their homes and their country. They are forced to do what they do because there are not enough Border Patrol officers.

The racism comes from political groups inside America like “La Raza” (which is spanish for “The Race” which is a hispanic supremacist group disquised as a civil rights organization). Many of these illegals also call themselves “Los Reconquistadores” (The Reconquerors). They see the Gringos (white men) as the enemy, even though whites are not the only race living in America.

And don’t forget, it is not only hard working people that come here for a new life but also hardened criminals and gang members like MS 13 (Mara Salvatrucha).

 

[Valmabar]

Maybe YOUR problem is thinking that all human laws are contrary to God’s will. Again, the high percentage of law breakers is NO indication that the law is flawed, but that those who break them are. As you yourself mentioned the imperfection of human beings.
Just because the majority of Americans want our sovereignty and our laws respected doesn’t mean we’re selfish, it’s a matter of our national and cultural survival. Self preservation is an instinct that God instilled in ALL people. Or do you find that part of God’s will unjust?
Why don’t all the illegal aliens try to improve their own countries instead of coming here illegally and then expecting/demanding rights granted to it’s citizens. Because it’s easier to break OUR laws than to improve THEIR countries and make it better for their children and grand children.
And Americans don’t believe our immigration laws are perfect. If they were we’d be able to curtail the number of illegals in America.

On contrary. Some human law come directly from Heaven. Although they are not in all constitutions. I love what the first and second Commandment say. (I love the others too but I think they are the most).

Your particular case is not a question of sovereignty or self preservation. It is egoism. God gave us the good instincts and more, wisdom and ability for to distinguish between self preservation and selfishness. Let as take the example of our firemen. If they was like you maybe they wouldn’t risk their lives for to save another’s lives. The health workers, if they had a head like yours they wouldn’t treat the patients with infeccious deseases. If we were thinking only about our self preservations, maybe we wouldn’t take care of the seniors, our others people in need etc. You are not talking about human self preservation, your example is about the others animals self preservation.

Your way of thinking is so moved by the money that your are only capable of think what is the cost of the undocument immigration. You not even permit yourself to think about what come back. You just forgot how interdependent the nations are on each others. If United States closes its borders to the immigration and send back all undocumented today, tomorrow every country will retaliate. If you think it will be good you are perfectly mislead. Just go to your statistics and do research on how much United States imports and exports. If you think United States is better alone you are insane.