Can I be Catholic?

[Lapey]

Conversion because she is divorced and my priest told me that annulment would not be possible.

I now see advice on this thread suggesting we could still try for an annulment? I have done extensive research on this, and I just don’t see how? My wife had a valid Buddhist marriage to a non-baptized man. Had he been baptized, that would have been a ‘loophole’ but how sad to be searching for loopholes!

Annulment may be out of the question, but it may not be needed in your situation. Go to the diocese through your priest and seek qualified help, not message board advice. But remember, if your priest does not seem to be able to help, go to another. Not all priests are experts in this area, seek another’s advice.

The Church does not supply nor search for loopholes. She finds the situation and has guidelines to make things right. After all, aren’t we all just trying to “make things right” in our lives? No matter what our life story is, all of us have made mistakes which need to be rectified, whether they be out if ignorance or misinformation or whatever. Mother Church is there to help us turn to Christ and live His way; all we have to do is accept His way.

 

[Lapey]

Had I been a Catholic before my marriage, perhaps I would be able to agree. But, once married, and especially after having a baby, how can I now forego those things?

I am sorry about my past sins, and I am sorry for my sins today. I am a sinner and may God have mercy on me and on all us sinners. All the more pertinent then that we may all have access to the sacraments?

Is it Christian to cast judgment on why someone is frozen out? Not all sheep come back to the shepherd with the herd, some have to be coaxed, some have to be positively sought. And we are taught that these lost sheep are to be cherished all the more.

And besides, who can truly now cast a judgment on my marriage and on my wife’s reasons for divorce from a previous union entirely outside the Church?

No one is asking you to leave your wife and child.

It is good to feel guilt and know that things aren’t right in your life. This is a sign of a well formed conscience and proof that you see more now than in your past. It is imperative that you continue to pursue the right path. We encourage you to continue, and pray for your perseverance.

Remember, judgment is much different than insisting on obedience. There is only one way, which is Jesus’ way, not yours and surely not mine. If we choose to not follow the precepts of the Church, we freeze ourselves out, and cast judgment upon ourselves.
No one is casting judgment on your marriage, nor your wife’s previous marriage. What must be looked at is whether there was a sacramental marriage or not. Legal does not make a sacrament. Now, present your situation in its entirety to your priest and move forward, don’t dwell in the past or in your own ideas, submit to the Church and move into a new life; a sacramental life in Jesus Christ!

 

[David_Alexander]

South Korea is full of catholics. I’ll bet there are many resources for you right there my friend, canon lawyers included. Or at least someone who could steer you in the right direction.

Don’t just sit around and stew about this. Take action.

Thank you nightranger for your care in all of this. I appreciate all your time on this thread.

I also thank you for pointing out how difficult Catholicism can be, as others have. Yes, I already knew it, but the way you phrased it worked in a very childlike way. You told me to just go and seek another denomination, and it made me realize beyond doubt that I did not want to. When I had started the thread, I was not as certain about that.

I pray that you gain a closer relationship with God also.

Finally, yes South Korea has a few Catholics, but “full of” is stretching it compared with other countries, not to mention that most of them speak Korean, which I am learning but still not able to converse about religion in a fluent way.

I was stewing yesterday, but before that I attended the two Catholic parishes I have found in Seoul (I do not doubt there are more), and I have asked a lot of questions. My boss is also Catholic, and Korean, and he is quite established in the community here. Yesterday I also phoned the Sister at the parish where I attend Mass, and she sympathized without offering any guidance for now. But she did say we can discuss it again.

Even the Catholic leaders I am talking with are not native English speakers. Their English is near enough perfect, but it just makes it a little challenging to have lengthy and in-depth conversations. But no one said this would not be a challenge

 

[Tyuiop411]

But I want to feel close to Jesus Christ and God, and I feel Catholicism has helped me do that in a way that I never previously imagined, through my research, my extended Bible, my rosary beads, through every aspect I have encountered EXCEPT for the fact I feel unwelcome

Yes my priest may tell me God loves me, but those words are empty from the mouth of one who will not himself offer me the greatest gift the Church has to offer.

I do not mind being patient, and I will sacrifice, but there is something distasteful about the Church’s refusal of some people based on something they can no longer practically do anything about, let alone the sins we commit now and may commit in the future.

This issue is really breaking my heart

The issue that seems to be holding this up from what I can tell is the fact your wife is divorced. The Catholic Church takes the sanctity of marriage very seriously, so it is understandable they would not want to baptize your baby until they are absolutely sure that you and your wife are validly married.

But be patient. I’ve met my fair share of converts who were so excited to embrace Catholicism that they were almost enraged that they would have to wait almost a whole year before becoming a full part of the Church. However, the joy they felt when they were welcomed into the Church at the Easter vigil was palpable, almost like you could taste it in the air.

Just remember that these periods of waiting and what not are in place for your spiritual welfare.

 

[David_Alexander]

Lapey, thank you very much for your words and your keen interest. It offers me strength just that you would take the time to give such good advice.

The gate is narrow, that is worth remembering.

Your words also offer hope that all people may be fully accepted into Catholicism. My biggest issue yesterday was that even if I could one day receive the sacraments, I did not feel comfortable doing so if I knew there were others who could not. Still, sometimes it feels as though the Church is less forgiving or flexible than Jesus Himself. That said, ask a child whose home has been broken by divorce, and it is ever clear why it is so destructive.

As in my post above to nightranger, I feel that yesterday’s stewing helped strengthen my resolve further. Perhaps I am just getting impatient to receive the sacraments, but I feel God in my heart, and my awareness of my love for Jesus is growing stronger by the day.

It is just natural to ask questions along the way, regarding Church teaching and so on, as we seek to understand. If we still do not understand after asking the questions, then the all-important enquiry should be: how can we move closer to God? Answer: yes through prayer, research, personal reflection and so on. But ultimately, the Church.

 

[David_Alexander]

The issue that seems to be holding this up from what I can tell is the fact your wife is divorced. The Catholic Church takes the sanctity of marriage very seriously, so it is understandable they would not want to baptize your baby until they are absolutely sure that you and your wife are validly married.

But be patient. I’ve met my fair share of converts who were so excited to embrace Catholicism that they were almost enraged that they would have to wait almost a whole year before becoming a full part of the Church. However, the joy they felt when they were welcomed into the Church at the Easter vigil was palpable, almost like you could taste it in the air.

Just remember that these periods of waiting and what not are in place for your spiritual welfare.

I do appreciate these words also, thank you.

I also take the sanctity of marriage seriously, and I do not want the Catholic Church to openly endorse divorce. As a child, I was terrified about my parents separating when I witnessed those of my friends parting ways. But we are also talking about human beings, fallible and searching and if ultimately repentent, then deserving of another chance. We are also talking about an innocent baby.

As for waiting, no problem with that. But yesterday particularly I felt I was waiting without hope, and I felt the weight of human judgment on me. I felt compelled to share my feelings, and I thank those who have helped with words of comfort.

 

[maltmom]

David, there is always hope. I will pray for you and your family.

 

[nightranger]

Bad advice from a Catholic to someone who wants to be Catholic…remember the gate is NARROW. Matt 7:13-14;

True enough Deacon Lapey.

My point is that no one will be condemned (at least as far as I know) for not knowing the fullness of truth. It seems to me much easier to embrace a protestant faith that tells you that once you except Christ, your salvation is guaranteed.

And also, David wouldn’t have to worry about all these marriage rules that the church has.

But he has stated clearly that he wishes to be a catholic. So my advice to him is a moot point anyway.

 

[Lapey]

True enough Deacon Lapey.

My point is that no one will be condemned (at least as far as I know) for not knowing the fullness of truth. It seems to me much easier to embrace a protestant faith that tells you that once you except Christ, your salvation is guaranteed.

And also, David wouldn’t have to worry about all these marriage rules that the church has.

But he has stated clearly that he wishes to be a catholic. So my advice to him is a moot point anyway.

Nightranger, I agree with your position here and we will be drawn to dig deeper. Once a person reaches a point where he/she sees a deeper truth, it is not acceptible to stop at that level. CCC calls us to follow our conscience, and it also requires us to continue to form that conscience in sound Catholic doctrine.

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

This quote from the CCC is from GAUDIUM ET SPES, a beautiful document by Pope Paul VI. This follows:

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church

I love these writings, they tell me I still have a lot to learn, and much formation to be gained, but we are on the right track!

 

[nightranger]

Once a person reaches a point where he/she sees a deeper truth, it is not acceptible to stop at that level.

That’s my whole problem with the church, Deacon Lapey.
It becomes an ever deeper trap of a sinned stained conscience.

For instance, I could be a model catholic all my life, but if I choose one Sunday to be lazy and skip mass, and if I die with that sin on my soul, I’m going to hell. It’s mortal sin after all.
I mean really, I miss mass once and I will spend eternity in horrible suffering?

CCC calls us to follow our conscience, and it also requires us to continue to form that conscience in sound Catholic doctrine.

I agree, but since we all have sinful natures, and if we fail to properly correct this nature before we die, we are again, going to hell. Even if we did out best, if the laws of the church are not strictly followed, we are eternally out of luck.

It just seems to me a much happier existence would be lived by a “once saved always saved” protestant with no such fears constantly hanging over his head.

 

[Lapey]

That’s my whole problem with the church, Deacon Lapey.
It becomes an ever deeper trap of a sinned stained conscience.

For instance, I could be a model catholic all my life, but if I choose one Sunday to be lazy and skip mass, and if I die with that sin on my soul, I’m going to hell. It’s mortal sin after all.
I mean really, I miss mass once and I will spend eternity in horrible suffering?

I agree, but since we all have sinful natures, and if we fail to properly correct this nature before we die, we are again, going to hell. Even if we did out best, if the laws of the church are not strictly followed, we are eternally out of luck.

It just seems to me a much happier existence would be lived by a “once saved always saved” protestant with no such fears constantly hanging over his head.

Then if this is truly what you believe, do you really know Jesus? OSAS is a fallacy, there is no such thing. Jesus Himself gave us the directives to keep the commandments; His Church just follows through with these requirements.

As to your first point, yes a sin stained conscience can fall deeper and deeper into despair but it is neither the Church nor God who causes or chooses this; it is the individual in sin who decides to continue wallowing in the slop of sin. The Church is there to feed and nurture, not condemn.

I totally misread your point if this is your true belief, and I beg you not to try to lead people away from His Church, no matter what their situation. This is not what a Catholic does for another. A disciple of Christ will lead others to Jesus in His Church, not outside.

Last point, just because there is no guilty feeling or fears hanging over your head as you put it, that doesn’t mean a person is free of sin or the consequence of that sin. Yes culpability may be different for un-churched and un educated person, but it is not an option to lay back and cruise through life with blinders on, it is a calling to seek, we reject God repeatedly, how will He know us when we see Him on our judgment day?

Matt. 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day,o ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers”

 

[nightranger]

OSAS is a fallacy, there is no such thing.

We know that, but they don’t. Hence my point. They will not be condemned for not knowing.

The Church is there to feed and nurture, not condemn.

Point taken. But to suffer eternal damnation for missing mass once? To be honest, that doesn’t sound very nurturing to me.

I totally misread your point if this is your true belief, and I beg you not to try to lead people away from His Church, no matter what their situation.

I’m not trying to lead people away from the church. I am saying however, that the catholic life is not an easy one, nor a happy one as far as I’m concerned.

we reject God repeatedly, how will He know us when we see Him on our judgment day?

Again, they’re not rejecting God if they don’t know any better.

 

[Maryann_C]

Two reasons why not:

1. His wife said the only Christian religion she would consider is Catholicism
2. Catholicism is true Christianity. Those protestant religions are not.

AND most importantly the fact that a OSAS is an erroneous doctrine contradicted by scripture. I am appalled that a CATHOLIC would suggest that.

@ the OP I understand your frustration with the baptism of your child, since the Catholic Church recognizes all Christian baptisms that have the following form : there must be pouring of water, and it must be done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I have heard some people get their children baptized else where while they were waiting to enter the Church as a family.
I know and understand however that the Catholic Church is only willing to baptize a child if they know for sure that the child will be raised in the Church, since at the baptism of an infant the parents and Godparents take on the responsibility of the faith formation. In a situation where one parent is divorced and not even a Christian there is a question . To my understanding, as in my situation with our children, only ONE parent needed to be Catholic but the other needs to assent and agree to raise the child in the faith, but that may only be the case if 2 Christians are married. You have the added divorce element which MAY mean that you are technically living in an adulterous relationship until your wife gets an annulment.
HOWEVEr it was my understanding that the Church recognizes all Christian marriages but I did not think it recognized non christian marriages as bound by God? someone else could set me straight here but that is what is at issue for your priest and perhaps he just did not explain it as well.
It is my understanding that if you and your wife agreed to live chastely as holy sister and brother - not engage in marital intercourse -until her divorce situation is sorted then you could receive communion after having gone to confession.

I do think that either I missed something or you have not told us your full status. when you say you changed your faith from Catholic to Christian , are you baptized Catholic and have you had 1st communion etc??

 

[Maryann_C]

I was to slow to edit so I pot this blog here that I found :
…this is why you need a cannon lawyer. Is it possible that you could contact one in an English speaking country for the sake of language?
OR
I found this blog
clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2012/05/catholic-church-continues-to-grow-in.html

that talks about the growth of the Catholic Church in Korea and the adult baptisms ( 7000 in 2011 !!) and conversions etc it is written in English and they have and email contact you may be able to network for some English speaking cannon lawyers through them. The also have some UK , US and European news so they are geared for the immigrants from those countries.

 

[Contarini]

Agreed, hence my advice to seek out a OSAS Protestant church.

Even though OSAS is an incoherent and heretical doctrine with no support in tradition and little in Scripture, which only comforts those who either embrace antinomianism, don’t think things through very carefully, or have a very strong faith (in other words, it is of absolutely no help whatever to a thoughtful, critically minded, ethically sensitive person who struggles in faith).

This is irrelevant. But you introduced the irrelevance.

 

[Contarini]

Had I been a Catholic before my marriage, perhaps I would be able to agree. But, once married, and especially after having a baby, how can I now forego those things?

I am sorry about my past sins, and I am sorry for my sins today. I am a sinner and may God have mercy on me and on all us sinners. All the more pertinent then that we may all have access to the sacraments?

Is it Christian to cast judgment on why someone is frozen out? Not all sheep come back to the shepherd with the herd, some have to be coaxed, some have to be positively sought. And we are taught that these lost sheep are to be cherished all the more.

And besides, who can truly now cast a judgment on my marriage and on my wife’s reasons for divorce from a previous union entirely outside the Church?

David,

I think the missing element in this (because most priests aren’t willing to put it this way) is that if you were willing to give up having a sexual relationship with your wife (the traditional cliche is “live as brother and sister”) you could go ahead and convert to Catholicism and receive the Eucharist even before her conversion and/or the annulment issues are worked out.

This is in my opinion one of the really confusing and annoying aspects of Catholic sexual teaching. Most priests simply seem to assume that people aren’t willing to give up sex, and so they put it in terms of “you can’t receive communion until you get an annulment.”

Now I’m not taking the responsibility of telling you to go this route–I’m just saying that in terms of Catholic teaching as I understand it, this is a possible approach, and that the priest’s failure to put it this way is probably due to his assumption that this just isn’t something folks are willing to do.

I may be wrong, of course. I myself am not in the same situation, though my marriage is an obstacle to my becoming Catholic in other ways, which I won’t elaborate on here. Still, I’ve seen a lot of folks for whom this is a huge issue, and the way the Catholic Church handles it is absolutely outrageous. A straightforward “you are living in adultery–repent!” might be offensive but would at least be clear. In their attempts to be sensitive, priests and canon lawyers turn the whole issue into a tangled network of technicalities.

The Catholic Church’s propensity for legalism and for quenching smoking flax is one of the reasons I have never converted myself, even though I don’t face the same issues personally and even though I share your sense that there’s something here worth pursuing underneath the tangled mess of human bureaucracy.

Edwin

 

[Maryann_C]

canon lawyers turn the whole issue into a tangled network of technicalities.

The Catholic Church’s propensity for legalism and for quenching smoking flax is one of the reasons I have never converted myself, even though I don’t face the same issues personally and even though I share your sense that there’s something here worth pursuing underneath the tangled mess of human bureaucracy.

Edwin

Aside from your assumption about the priest being unwilling to ask a secularly married husband and wife to stop living as husband and wife.
Are you suggesting that a priest should baptize and accept into the Church a person who has no intention of repenting (turning from sin) ? Isn’t that what Jesus taught and isn’t that what His apostles passed on? They would say repent and be baptized. Is that the legalism you are referring to???

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Thank you again for that reply, just before you sleep

Living like brother and sister would probably be enough to push my wife away from Christianity to be honest, if not destroy our young marriage. Honestly I would consider that kind of sacrifice, but I cannot inflict it on my wife.

And as above (which you may not have seen as you were probably typing), annulment is not an option.

Dear David,
You might be surprised at what the Diocesan Tribunal’s decision may be: I would begin with having a talk with a trusted local priest and then the Diocese. Also, please, dear friend, read all you can by Scott Hahn (see Youtube, see his website) He converted a few years before his wife did. He was a Presbyterian pastor. His insights are brilliant. Please trust God and His One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to bring you closer to your Heavenly Father. He is the author of all Love, and Our Lord Jesus Christ can be trusted as your Shepherd through all this.

Please attend Mass. Pray along, sing, and wait for the decision of the Diocese and do not try to foretell the future. Please check back in with us and fear not. “Perfect love casts out all fear.” Nothing surprises God. Whatever we feel we have gotten ourselves into, whatever sins, He is more powerful than all of that and more.

Peace and patience to you, dear friend, and best wishes and prayers to you and your wife and all your family.
Love in Christ,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[benjohnson]

But, once married, and especially after having a baby, how can I now forego those things?

Most of the time, I agree with Catholic teaching, but here’s where I don’t. As a father, I’m more concerned with the salvation of my children and my wife than my own.

I would recommend vigorously using all Catholic means to remedy the situation, including trying other Catholic churches.

But at the end of the day, If the Catholic church won’t baptize your child, and won’t offer to absolve you and your wife of your sins, and won’t offer you communion as an adopted child of God then I would see Christ’s church elsewhere. The Anglican church may offer relief for your soul, and I know some Lutheran churches would.

In my opinion, the law should be strong, but the gospel should be stronger.

 

[benjohnson]

True enough Deacon Lapey.

My point is that no one will be condemned (at least as far as I know) for not knowing the fullness of truth.

For what it’s worth - not all Protestants believe in OSAS. Lutherans hold that you can lose your salvation if you willfully turn away from God.