Can i expect him to ever train his eyes, and is his still looking as wrong as i feel it is?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RachelKH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RachelKH

Guest
My husband has been cheating with his eyes by looking at other women’s bodies and lusting about them for all 23 years of our marriage. He has finally come around to understanding ow wrong and hurtful it is. His eyes still go to butt, breast, thighs, of every woman he comes across. I’ve seen his eyes follow our teen age daughter’s body, especially when she leaves the room we are in. He says he is just naturally drawn to these body parts and that I and my daughters have no right to feel uncomfortable because he ‘controls his thoughts’ and ‘doesn’t think lustful thoughts’ about his daughters. I feel he needs to control his eyes better, to not be looking at those body parts, to not think it is fine, especially when he is looking at our own daughters or their friends. Am I unrealistic about this? Our daughters are all beautiful (or at least nice-looking – hey, I’m their mom and I think they are wonderful!!) but they do not dress seductively or in clothing that is designed to draw the eyes to breasts, butt, thighs – seriously, they know all about modesty and not trying to cause sin, etc, and wear their clothing looser than most, longer than most, more covering than most – please don’t think his argument that it is their fault that his eyes go there holds any water. I just need to know how realistic my hope/expectations are and how ok/tolerable his looking his. Please share and advise.
 
It is NOT normal for a father to look at his daughters “parts” like that.:(…That is very bizarre and wrong:(
 
//please don’t think his argument that it is their fault that his eyes go there holds any water. //

**I have not seen your husband’s actions, but I have read your posting, and this is my evaluation:

Rather odd.

You ask a question–and then you immediately say what answer you will not accept to it.

Any possibility you are simply insecure about your own status with your husband and are deliberately subjecting him to your own censorious view of his actions–and simply want approval of this?**
 
I have been trying to understand my husband and his actions for a long time. He blames others for every thing he does that is wrong, hurtful, doesn’t work out, etc. He accepts responsibility for nothing but the things that are well received, successful, admired. I believe he is narcissistic to a large degree. I was trying to paint a truer, clearer picture for you so you could help me. I guess it would have been better for me to post front and back pictures of my daughters in what they were wearing when he has looking at the in areas I feel he should not be, but that would be everything they own and take a lot of space on here.
 
I can’t speak for your husband because I am not there to see exactly what this looking looks like…but I can share what I have seen in my husband.

I am always catching him in public places with wandering eyes. He sees a girl with a short skirt and his eyes follow her for 2-4 seconds. (this is an approximation, since I don’t actually time it). Then he is off looking at something else. It doesn’t matter if the girl is 16 or 50. It happens, I shrug it off because it’s not like he’s staring at her for 30+ seconds. If I feel his gaze is a little long, I take his hand or put my arm around him to get his attention back on me. This will always work, and when he does turn to look at me, I’ll give him a smile and a light kiss to remind him how lucky he is to have me. 😉

If this doesn’t sound like your husband, I’d say something is up there.

Something else to keep in mind is that in this society women are dressing more and more to attract as much sexual attention as they can. This is making it harder and harder and harder for men, who are more drawn visually than women anyway, to not look. This is why I help him when I see it by taking his hand or putting my arm around him to get his attention back. It’s a hard thing for men to stay pure in this age, and I see it as my job to help my husband, rather than guilt him. (not that I think you are!)

As far as the daughters, I can’t help but wonder if part of him is looking at that with frustration. It can’t be easy for a man, who knows what goes on in the hearts of teen boys, to see his daughters showcasing anything remotely at all. I thuroughly believe that any man is disturbed by his little girls wearing anything less than a head-to-toe robe (burkas?) 😉 I am not saying this to defend him if he is in the wrong, but just to provide alternate perspectives. If he is honestly attracted to your daughter’s body parts, that’s kind of creepy.
 
He blames others for every thing he does that is wrong, hurtful, doesn’t work out, etc. He accepts responsibility for nothing but the things that are well received, successful, admired. I believe he is narcissistic to a large degree.
Okay, I didn’t see this before I posted (you beat me! hehe) and that is definatly a red flag. Have you thought about marital counselling?
 
Hi Rachel,

I’m really sorry that you are having this trouble with your husband. I really think that you and your husband would benefit by having a meeting with your priest.

It’s tough to really assess what your husband is thinking when he seems to look at your daughters. I am not married and don’t have daughters; it could be that he really is just ‘drawn in’ by their beauty. Still, I think talking things with a priest would be in order since he apparently lusts after other women, which is not an acceptable action.

This might sound a little hokey, but try praying with him. But definitely see your priest with your husband.
 
the monsignor at our church just brushed off my concerns and even my suicidal depression a year ago when i went to him – he has no interest in anything other than keeping things peaceful – my dh works for the church in a position where he is there with the school students and is seen as an asset by many including the pastor, so he just wants me to shut up and not rock the boat. i believe he is one of those priest who covers for or would cover for other priests who have caused the scandals in our churches, so as to make his job easier, more calm, less stressful – he is a ‘sweep it under the rug’ type of priest, and that is his advice to me. I need to know that our 4 daughters are safe and not part of my dh’s sexual fantasies – i feel they should feel safe from harm at home, able to breathe, play, talk, move, etc, w/o worrying about what their daddy is looking at on them or what he is thinking about. I feel I should not have to force my dh to be true to me by being there to babysit him and stop his lusting over others by getting between him and other women all the time. I am his wife, I am very good to him in bed and out, I am not ugly or undesirable, I care only for him, I think and plan and do for him constantly – why is he so uncaring of me? why does he look to others for his pleasure? why does he not try to please me? why is he so unattached to me and our children? why does he not care to ‘be present’ in our children’s lives except as it causes him pleasure (never disciplining, talking, showing other than superficial interest, ignoring his effect on their lives, not having a relationship where anyone feels he cares about them, denying other’s the right to their feelings if they differ from his own, etc) why does he say in lovemaking that it is too much trouble to find my pleasure spot since it is so small unlike his big penis so why should he have to take the trouble to find and bother with it? why does he look at women so much and be such a poor lover (no i don’t tell him he is a lousy lover, just ask him to give me some pleasure too as I do for him)? Is he really as uncaring as it feels? Will he ever care about me or anyone? Are we just a poor match? If I were more beautiful, a better lover, less caring about getting some pleasure myself, would he ever show interest and love in a way that didn’t leave me always striving to make him love me?
 
You need some professional counseling that we cannot offer here. I sense that there may be some jealousy as well as resentment. I am an electrician, though, and not a therapist but some things are obvious. Seeking out your parish priest may not be the best option while seeking another priest might be. You definitely need to work things out or this will escalate into a separation and that will neither be good for you or your daughters.

Make an appointment with a professional counselor and then you can air out all of frustrations with a trained professional. Your husband’s “looking” at your daughters can either be a very dangerous situation or it can be another part of the whole picture of jealousy. We cannot nor will not determine that here on a public forum. Do yourself a huge favor and tackle this as soon as you can. May God give you the peace and courage that you need…In Christ…teachccd
 
the monsignor at our church just brushed off my concerns and even my suicidal depression a year ago when i went to him – he has no interest in anything other than keeping things peaceful – my dh works for the church in a position where he is there with the school students and is seen as an asset by many including the pastor, so he just wants me to shut up and not rock the boat. i believe he is one of those priest who covers for or would cover for other priests who have caused the scandals in our churches, so as to make his job easier, more calm, less stressful – he is a ‘sweep it under the rug’ type of priest, and that is his advice to me. I need to know that our 4 daughters are safe and not part of my dh’s sexual fantasies – i feel they should feel safe from harm at home, able to breathe, play, talk, move, etc, w/o worrying about what their daddy is looking at on them or what he is thinking about. I feel I should not have to force my dh to be true to me by being there to babysit him and stop his lusting over others by getting between him and other women all the time. I am his wife, I am very good to him in bed and out, I am not ugly or undesirable, I care only for him, I think and plan and do for him constantly – why is he so uncaring of me? why does he look to others for his pleasure? why does he not try to please me? why is he so unattached to me and our children? why does he not care to ‘be present’ in our children’s lives except as it causes him pleasure (never disciplining, talking, showing other than superficial interest, ignoring his effect on their lives, not having a relationship where anyone feels he cares about them, denying other’s the right to their feelings if they differ from his own, etc) why does he say in lovemaking that it is too much trouble to find my pleasure spot since it is so small unlike his big penis so why should he have to take the trouble to find and bother with it? why does he look at women so much and be such a poor lover (no i don’t tell him he is a lousy lover, just ask him to give me some pleasure too as I do for him)? Is he really as uncaring as it feels? Will he ever care about me or anyone? Are we just a poor match? If I were more beautiful, a better lover, less caring about getting some pleasure myself, would he ever show interest and love in a way that didn’t leave me always striving to make him love me?
Again, I don’t know your husband or you very well. I can only base things on what I read here I have to say that based on what you have written here it really seems that his wandering eyes have very little to do with why you are so unhappy with DH right now. It seems to me that it is just a visibile symptom that angers you of deep marital issues. Have you been this forthright with him? Have you told him everything you feel, nothing held back? You need to. I cannot reccomend highly enough that you two seek marital help from a professional.
…and even my suicidal depression a year ago when I went to him…
I am sorry you are struggling with this. I can’t believe a priest would brush you off so casually if you are talking about suicide!!! That is totally unacceptable. He should at least have told you what I am about to tell you:

Suicidal thoughts and fantasies are a MAJOR symptom that something is very wrong. It should be treated as seriously as if a person was having the same symptoms of a stroke, heart attack, or other deadly health issue. Have you seen someone who could see if you have medical depression? Are you in treatment for it? If you are not seeing a professional about this, you need to as soon as possible. Your life is so valuable, and you can’t treat the symptom of a deadly disease as if it weren’t serious.

Also keep in mind that if you are indeed struggling with depression, it is going to change how you perceive things. Before you make any big decisions about your marriage or telling someone in your church that you fear for kid’s safety because of your husband. This is a good case of taking care of #1 first. Seeing a therapist for your depression, and getting both you and DH into marital counselling should be the first step.
 
we’ve tried marriage counseling, i’ve been to my own counselor and am on anti-depressants
but it all comes down to his unwillingness to care about his effect on our family, his unwillingness to accept any responsibility for his behaviors, his indifference to anyone’s hurt or feelings or differences from how he wants things to be, in short that he loves himself only and wants what he wants w/o regard to how it affects others
i guess i have lots of my own problems – i want him to truly love me and he is incapable but i keep asking for it
i have been co-dependent too long, but am trying to get well, be whole, no longer bang my head against the wall of his indifference and be manipulated by his toying with me
i just need to know what a normal male is like so i can have boundaries and expectations that are realistic
if all males are going to look at all women, even their own daughters, then this part of him is normal. if they feel this is not normal, that i need to understand too. i am not visually stimulated by the male (or female!!!) naked body at all and can not ever understand the effect of the female naked, scantily dressed, or tightly dressed body on the visually stimulated male, so i am asking for understanding of normal or not behavior like my dh’s.
i have read books teaching men how to train their eyes, so i understood that would mean not habitually looking at bodies, not just suppressing the lustful thoughts looking brings. can he develop a different habit? is it normal for him to be looking for sexual stimulation by looking at my breasts, etc, as he does in the middle of arguments, serious discussions, any difficult talk, like even paying bills or undone chores or forgetting his promise to be available to take his own child to a band practice or pick up a prescription for another sick child? it seems like ‘mental masturbation’ used like thumb sucking or nail biting or hair twirling to comfort himself during stress (any situation where he might be at fault or ashamed or uncomfortable) or boredom or trying to perk up his day by getting a little mental sexual buzz from unsuspecting women who cross his vision.
i come here looking for the catholic view of all this, because so far the counselors i’ve come to with this have said ’ don’t expect monogamy because the human male is not programmed for that’ and ‘just decide what you are willing to live with and leave him or don’t depending on your decision’, but no real help as to what is normal and right behavior for a male 45 yo father of 6 in a stable marriage situation. or how to get it.
 
i just need to know what a normal male is like so i can have boundaries and expectations that are realistic
if all males are going to look at all women, even their own daughters, then this part of him is normal. if they feel this is not normal, that i need to understand too. i am not visually stimulated by the male (or female!!!) naked body at all and can not ever understand the effect of the female naked, scantily dressed, or tightly dressed body on the visually stimulated male, so i am asking for understanding of normal or not behavior like my dh’s.
i have read books teaching men how to train their eyes, so i understood that would mean not habitually looking at bodies, not just suppressing the lustful thoughts looking brings. can he develop a different habit? is it normal for him to be looking for sexual stimulation by looking at my breasts, etc, as he does in the middle of arguments, serious discussions, any difficult talk, like even paying bills or undone chores or forgetting his promise to be available to take his own child to a band practice or pick up a prescription for another sick child? it seems like ‘mental masturbation’ used like thumb sucking or nail biting or hair twirling to comfort himself during stress (any situation where he might be at fault or ashamed or uncomfortable) or boredom or trying to perk up his day by getting a little mental sexual buzz from unsuspecting women who cross his vision.
Let me say at the start, that if you husband has sexual feelings for his own offspring, he suffers from a disorder that absolutely, positively requires psychological help. We are biologically prevented from wanting to mate with our own offspring, just as we are biologically prevented from wanting to touch fire. If someone wants to touch a fire, or has sexual feelings towards his own offspring, there is some pathology to blame. Fathers with healthy relationships with their daughters do not, and could not, find them sexually appealing. Normal fathers would look at their own daughters and react just as they might at seeing a naked man–no sexual feelings or thoughts whatsoever. It is not entirely clear that your husband is, in fact, finding your daughters sexually attractive, but if he is, he needs professional help, pronto.

As far as your question above… As has been posted, most (all?) normal males, no matter how pious and strong, will have their eyes “caught” by scantily-clad women, and sometimes by non-scantily clad women. For most men, however, this is for almost less than a moment. A woman falling out of her dress, as women say, will walk by, and a (good) male will think for just a fraction of a second “oh, there’s a woman falling out of her dress” and then immediately return to whatever he was thinking about or looking at. Its impossible for many men to not have this response–it is a hardwired, involuntary reaction.

This need not be a lustful response. If we try, we can look away immediately, and never give lust a chance. In fact, when my eyes are caught, it is often in disgust–my feelings aren’t lust, but frustration that the poor female is acting that way, frustration that something like that even catches my eye, etc. When the initial “eye catch” results in lust, that is a failure of will, a failure of us trying to do the right thing. I don’t care if its Cindy Crawford naked, we can look away if we want to, and I’d like to think I would look away immediately upon realizing what I’m looking at.

To sum up, men will naturally have their eyes caught. It is always within our power to pull away, so to speak, immediately upon realizing what we are seeing. It also seems, however, that your husband may be suffering from some kind of psychological problem, which could conceivably include a sexual compulsion towards all women, including his own daughters. If what you have said thus far is true, you absolutely need to seek professional help. From a priest, yes, but also from a mental health professional.

Good luck, you are in my prayers.
 
Have you been this forthright with him? Have you told him everything you feel, nothing held back? You need to.
The problem with that is if her husband is truly narcissistic, he’ll turn everything around and make it seem like her fault.
Also keep in mind that if you are indeed struggling with depression, it is going to change how you perceive things. Before you make any big decisions about your marriage or telling someone in your church that you fear for kid’s safety because of your husband. This is a good case of taking care of #1 first. Seeing a therapist for your depression, and getting both you and DH into marital counselling should be the first step.
Totally agree here. First and foremost find help with the depression and yourself. This is ~not~ saying that you’re the problem or in any way even hinting that if might be just the way you’re looking at things because “you have a problem” and that’s ~very~ important to keep in mind.

I don’t know enough about this specific situation, nor am I a therapist so wouldn’t be able to say anyways, but if it ~is~ the case that you’re right about the narcissism, you need to be emotionally healthy yourself in order to be able to do anything about it effectively.

I say this from a perspective of having married a woman with Borderline Personality Disorder. I was depressed and suicidal at one point that, making it worse, she used that “as proof” that ~I~ was the “mentally ill” person who “messed up our marriage”. If I didn’t have my own therapist to help me with my own problems, as well as dealing with mine ~with~ hers, I could easily have lost myself completely.

Again, I’m not saying he has BPD or the similar NPD, but even if he leans that way, you can’t help him without the help you need for yourself. If the counselors you’re seeing essentially blow you off as if you’re “expecting too much from a man” it’s possible they might think you’re overreacting and don’t understand the part that probably hurts more:
but it all comes down to his unwillingness to care about his effect on our family, his unwillingness to accept any responsibility for his behaviors, his indifference to anyone’s hurt or feelings or differences from how he wants things to be, in short that he loves himself only and wants what he wants w/o regard to how it affects others
It’s hard to say it that way “what hurts more?” especially in the middle of the problems that can cause so much hurt that ~everything~ seems to, it makes it even harder to p(name removed by moderator)oint where it started after so much has already been added. That’s where a ~good~ therapist for yourself can be the most help.

My heart aches for what you’re going through, and I’ll pray for you. I know how hard it is to have patience and keep seeking help while being in so much pain, but always try to keep in mind that ~it will pass~, for certain. You can find the help you need, as long as you keep looking.
 
My Heart akes for you. I have four daughters and I never look or looked at them in that manner. I have a nineteen year old granddaughter livjng with me and her mom and I dont look at her in that way.I am very carefull that she always feels comfortable. My oldest daughter said they always felt secure at home and that is how it should be. You need to find a priest or a catholic counciler outside of your parish for help.
I will keep you in my prayers.

Antrim
 
I thought you left him.

Yes, he’s a narcissist. Please go read the online book I have recommended till I’m blue in the face.
i have read books teaching men how to train their eyes, so i understood that would mean not habitually looking at bodies, not just suppressing the lustful thoughts looking brings. can he develop a different habit? is it normal for him to be looking for sexual stimulation by looking at my breasts, etc, as he does in the middle of arguments, serious discussions, any difficult talk, like even paying bills or undone chores or forgetting his promise to be available to take his own child to a band practice or pick up a prescription for another sick child? it seems like ‘mental masturbation’ used like thumb sucking or nail biting or hair twirling to comfort himself during stress (any situation where he might be at fault or ashamed or uncomfortable) or boredom or trying to perk up his day by getting a little mental sexual buzz from unsuspecting women who cross his vision.
Sweetie, he does that deliberately. A narcissist will demean you when you are trying to discuss something serious by looking at your boobs or something. It gets you off guard and makes you forget the real issue. It negates you as a person.

The narcissist does not see his/her spouse or children as human beings. Everyone is a prop in their lives. They will even make comments that are very inappropriate about their own children.

No it is not normal for a man to be gazing at his own daughter like that. A normal man doesn’t. But a narcissist does not have a normal relationship with his/her own children.

No, you can’t trust him. I wouldn’t leave him alone with any daughters. I’d be afraid to let him sleep in the same house. Narcissists are predators. Not every narcissist is a sexual predator, but every sexual predator is a narcissist.

Go find a different priest to talk to. Narcissists seldom commit suicide. They drive other people to do it and then stand back as the grieving spouse and get sympathy for the love and patience they showed that poor unstable person all those years.

While you’re getting help, get help for your kids. Being treated as a non-person by their father all these years is going to destroy their ability to make normal relationships with people. Seeing you denigrated will affect their expectations in life. And your daughters… how do they feel being leered at by their father and unable to bring their friends home or daddy will leer at them too.

He can train his eyes. He won’t. You can’t control him. How long do you want to put up with that?
 
he has finally moved out, but only to my parents’ house so far, because they still think of him as the perfect person he puts on for the world to see. my 16yodd never wants to see him again, but is in the Messiah that he is leading this year so she has it hard deciding how much she has to give up and how much she can take. no friends come over right now at all due to illness and the strained atmosphere – hoping to get over all that. my 13yodd is started at a special school to help troubled emotionally teens. it is so hard because the 4yo and 7yo miss daddy and want him to play with them and he needs his adulation fix by being with them. i let him come over to play outside with them, but am looking ahead to frigid weather and how that will work and also if he gets his own place, whether they would be safe there at all. he says there are lines he would never cross, like having an actual physical relationship w/ anyone but me, but just because he hasn’t or hasn’t been caught doesn’t mean he won’t or that the lines he draws would keep my children safe. i am insisting that he get treatment and live apart at least 6 months until we see if he can change or not and if our children can feel comfortable and be safe with him ever. thank you for all your advice and help, and the book recommendations etc. i really am trying to do my best, which i am getting better at, but having flu in one or another of the 5 of us for the past month has made everything harder, and stress on all of us is making it hard to get and stay well. thank you so much especially for prayers.
 
I feel for you. It seemed everyone was sick at our house except Mr. Narcissist. He never looked so hale and hearty and he was literally sucking the energy and health out of everyone around him.

Adulation fix is the perfect description. Once they no longer feed his insatiable need, they’ll be in the special school for emotionally troubled kids too. 😦

I’d like to take a fire hose to your parents.

But maybe as he lives with them, they’ll see the truth finally. That kind can’t NOT mess with people’s lives and heads and take advantage.

Pray for them to see the truth about him. And to have the courage to act on it.

The fact they can’t take your word for it… well, maybe they always were jerks as parents and conditioned you perfectly for life with a narcissist.

It would take a nicer person than me, once they find out the truth, not to make them crawl to see their grandchildren, having taken his side.
 
\ we’ve tried marriage counseling, i’ve been to my own counselor and am on anti-depressants
but it all comes down to his unwillingness to care about his effect on our family, his unwillingness to accept any responsibility for his behaviors, his indifference to anyone’s hurt or feelings or differences from how he wants things to be, in short that he loves himself only and wants what he wants w/o regard to how it affects others\

**On the basis of your posts here, especially your own words I’m quoting, it seems that YOU are the one who is suffering from great resentment about your husband.

If you are always complaining to him about his behavior as you have done here, no wonder he is tuning you out.

There’s a little couplet you should think about:

How very selfish others can be.
They think of themselves instead of me.

Perhaps a different anti-depressant might help you. YOU are the only one whose behavior you can control, and YOU are the only one whose attitude you can control.**
 
Did you say that he works in a church environment…with children? That is a bit un-nerving. I do not think it is unreasonable for you to tell him to either find a new job without children or that you will be taking your concerns about his charecter to his boss.

About this being reality vs. your perception…do your daughters notice him leering at them? Have they commented to you that they see him looking at them? If the answer is yes, then he should not be living under the same roof as them. One thing about sexual deviancy is that it is a process of escalation…a graphic image here, an online escapade there and before long they are assaulting women. If he is able to objectify your daughters, then he no longer sees them as people. He sees them only as an ends to his means. That is very dangerous.

If he is in fact looking at other women compulisvely and with lust with no attempts to stop it, then he is already guilty of adultery.

You asked what is “normal.” Well, I have been married for 2 1/2 years and before that dated for 2 years. In this span of time I never seen my husband so much as glare at another women… not even the slightest, quickest glance. Not one single time. Not at a beach, not at party, not at the mall. Not one single time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top