Can I forge a document?

[LilyM]

Don’t hyperbolize. It adds nothing to the discussion. And if you think Greece is in trouble because they don’t pay taxes, you might want to read up more about the situation.

I don’t think it’s my lawful duty to pay fines, which is what this is, not a tax. Yes, I agree other avenues of rectification would be better, if they will work. But I certainly would sign the document before I gave up $$$. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

That’s some peculiar logic from where I sit.

Fines are usually (not always) imposed for a breach of some just law.

Taxes are imposed for no other reason than that you dare to earn income, buy or sell goods and services or employ people. If anything, taxes should be the bigger moral issue.

 

[LaSainte]

That’s some peculiar logic from where I sit.

Fines are usually (not always) imposed for a breach of some just law.

Taxes are imposed for no other reason than that you dare to earn income, buy or sell goods and services or employ people. If anything, taxes should be the bigger moral issue.

I am perfectly willing to pay the TAX that I owe. As a matter of fact, the seller left the price of the vehicle (which is almost 50 years old and not running) blank. I could theoretically say that I paid 1000 dollars for the car and not get a second glance from the tax office. I fully intend to pay the FULL amount of taxes that I owe (6.25% of $12,500-a handy amount) because not going to lie about how much I paid. THAT would be tax fraud. I am simply not willing to pay a completely unfair and exorbitant penalty because of a simple “penalty” that is applied because I was ignorant of the law.

I’m not talking about ignorance of an obvious law, but an absurd fee attached to something obscure that I was not even aware I had to do.

If someone suddenly told you that you had to get a title for every item in your home, and that you owed $10 per item that you own, to the point of being financially untenable, would you just voluntarily offer that money up?

This is not cheating or fraud. This is an unjust penalty that I had no way of knowing about until after the fact.

 

[LilyM]

I am perfectly willing to pay the TAX that I owe. As a matter of fact, the seller left the price of the vehicle (which is almost 50 years old and not running) blank. I could theoretically say that I paid 1000 dollars for the car and not get a second glance from the tax office. I fully intend to pay the FULL amount of taxes that I owe (6.25% of $12,500-a handy amount) because not going to lie about how much I paid. THAT would be tax fraud. I am simply not willing to pay a completely unfair and exorbitant penalty because of a simple “penalty” that is applied because I was ignorant of the law.

I’m not talking about ignorance of an obvious law, but an absurd fee attached to something obscure that I was not even aware I had to do.

If someone suddenly told you that you had to get a title for every item in your home, and that you owed $10 per item that you own, to the point of being financially untenable, would you just voluntarily offer that money up?

This is not cheating or fraud. This is an unjust penalty that I had no way of knowing about until after the fact.

We are not talking some minor purchase. We are talking a car worth many thousands of dollars, the second most expensive thing most of us buy apart from our houses.

There is ALWAYS paperwork involved and fees to be paid when buying and selling a car, and penalties if it is not properly transferred and registered and so on. Common prudence dictates that anyone making such a substantial purchase would check and abide by the rules and ensure that the paperwork is done properly and in a timely fashion that will avoid penalties such as that incurred by the OP.

If we choose not to check the details, it is like choosing not to inspect a property for pests before buying. in which case buyer beware and suffer the (often expensive) consequences of not exercising proper diligence.

It is not like this fine was something brought into law just yesterday that a reasonable amount of homework would not have made the buyer aware of before the purchase, nor the penalty something that due diligence could not have easily avoided.

 

[LaSainte]

We are not talking some minor purchase. We are talking a car worth many thousands of dollars, the second most expensive thing most of us buy apart from our houses.

There is ALWAYS paperwork involved and fees to be paid when buying and selling a car, and penalties if it is not properly transferred and registered and so on. Common prudence dictates that anyone making such a substantial purchase would check and abide by the rules and ensure that the paperwork is done properly and in a timely fashion that will avoid penalties such as that incurred by the OP.

If we choose not to check the details, it is like choosing not to inspect a property for pests before buying. in which case buyer beware and suffer the (often expensive) consequences of not exercising proper diligence.

It is not like this fine was something brought into law just yesterday that a reasonable amount of homework would not have made the buyer aware of before the purchase, nor the penalty something that due diligence could not have easily avoided.

Bull! My engagement ring is worth more than this car, and a person can go and buy a similar piece of jewelry and not do massive amounts of “homework” before doing so.

You go to the store, buy it, and leave with your purchase.

How much “research” are we required to do when making everyday purchases?

You buy something and assume that you legally own it. Suddenly when you go to sell it, you realize that there are all of these restrictions on said transaction and you are suddenly obligated to pay a massive fine? Bologna!

 

[LaSainte]

We are not talking some minor purchase. We are talking a car worth many thousands of dollars, the second most expensive thing most of us buy apart from our houses.

There is ALWAYS paperwork involved and fees to be paid when buying and selling a car, and penalties if it is not properly transferred and registered and so on. Common prudence dictates that anyone making such a substantial purchase would check and abide by the rules and ensure that the paperwork is done properly and in a timely fashion that will avoid penalties such as that incurred by the OP.

If we choose not to check the details, it is like choosing not to inspect a property for pests before buying. in which case buyer beware and suffer the (often expensive) consequences of not exercising proper diligence.

It is not like this fine was something brought into law just yesterday that a reasonable amount of homework would not have made the buyer aware of before the purchase, nor the penalty something that due diligence could not have easily avoided.

Comparing such a thing to not Inspecting a property for pests is a false analogy. If I bought a house and did not inspect it for, let us say, termites, the. I am absolutely willing to incur the financial burden of ridding the property that I OWN of pests. Caveat emptor. I get that. I am and have been willing to do the things that need to be done to get this car in working order.

I am perfectly willng to pay the money to get this car into the condition that it needs to be. No problem there. What I am NOT willing to do, is to pay the government 3000 dollars as a “fee” for not knowing that I had to register/title this car immediately, even though it was not being driven.

 

[underacloud]

LaSainte, you seem to have made your mind up that this is OK, so why did you post the question? If you want a properly considered answer (not to say you haven’t already received such here), why not discuss this matter with your pastor?

I’m also a little unsure of the details. Does the title have the signature of the previous to last owner (the one before the ebay purchase), but it is simply not dated? If this were the case, why not just try to work with that, leave the date blank and if asked be vague and hope they’ll just write a recent date and process it. If you feel the fines are unreasonable, this may be a way to avoid them without actually telling any lies.

Of course, as other have suggested, you could just proceed with all honesty and hope to have the fines waived as it was an honest mistake.

These two courses of action would seem defensible. But deliberately lying on a legal document is not.

 

[LilyM]

Bull! My engagement ring is worth more than this car, and a person can go and buy a similar piece of jewelry and not do massive amounts of “homework” before doing so.

You go to the store, buy it, and leave with your purchase.

How much “research” are we required to do when making everyday purchases?

You buy something and assume that you legally own it. Suddenly when you go to sell it, you realize that there are all of these restrictions on said transaction and you are suddenly obligated to pay a massive fine? Bologna!

Well, enough research to be sure you’ve done the paperwork correctly and so actually own the thing for starters! Is there nothing on the actual form that indicated the deadline or at least refers you elsewhere to find out the requirements?

Presumably there was no paperwork to be done on your purchase of your ring beyond handing over money and getting a receipt in return - so not much if anything to check.

I’d wager that you did at least some research before you bought your ring? That you at least made sure that you were not about to become the proud owner of a piece of glass encased in chicken wire for which you got snookered into paying thousands of dollars, but instead something a little more genuinely rare and precious and subsequently more worth what was paid for it? That you perhaps insured it and had it valued, as most people do with valuable jewellery?

You bought a car, not a piece of jewellery. You already know that there is much more paperwork involved - in that sense it is more like buying a house than your ring. Simple rule - the more paperwork, the more hidden catches and things that can go wrong. The more checking, therefore, required to ensure that nothing comes back to bite you.

Heck, I’ve never even bought a car personally and yet still I know, mostly because I know people who have bought em, that it’s not just a simple matter of hand over money and drive away. I’ve also seen, when in my local Transport office to get my licence, that they put out booklets about buying and selling cars - which I’m sure would outline the sorts of rule that tripped you up.

Prudence dictates that I would give such a booklet a glance prior to purchasing a vehicle, as I would the guides put out by my state’s Real Estate Institite about buying a house before I did so.

Never seen the equivalent in a jewellery shop or a white goods store

 

[LaSainte]

Well, enough research to be sure you’ve done the paperwork correctly and so actually own the thing for starters! Is there nothing on the actual form that indicated the deadline or at least refers you elsewhere to find out the requirements?

Presumably there was no paperwork to be done on your purchase of your ring beyond handing over money and getting a receipt in return - so not much if anything to check.

I’d wager that you did at least some research before you bought your ring? That you at least made sure that you were not about to become the proud owner of a piece of glass encased in chicken wire for which you got snookered into paying thousands of dollars, but instead something a little more genuinely rare and precious and subsequently more worth what was paid for it? That you perhaps insured it and had it valued, as most people do with valuable jewellery?

You bought a car, not a piece of jewellery. You already know that there is much more paperwork involved - in that sense it is more like buying a house than your ring. Simple rule - the more paperwork, the more hidden catches and things that can go wrong. The more checking, therefore, required to ensure that nothing comes back to bite you.

Heck, I’ve never even bought a car personally and yet still I know, mostly because I know people who have bought em, that it’s not just a simple matter of hand over money and drive away. I’ve also seen, when in my local Transport office to get my licence, that they put out booklets about buying and selling cars - which I’m sure would outline the sorts of rule that tripped you up.

Prudence dictates that I would give such a booklet a glance prior to purchasing a vehicle, as I would the guides put out by my state’s Real Estate Institite about buying a house before I did so.

Never seen the equivalent in a jewellery shop or a white goods store

No, my ring is not insured, and it was a gift, so I did not do any research on it before I received it. I know what it is worth though, and every time I take it to a jeweler, they go crazy over the stone, sink know its not glass and chicken wire (as if I wod not have known this by plain sight).

This was the first car I ever bought personally. I bought it on EBay. It was delivered to me on a truck. The driver unloaded it, handed me the title and bill of sale, and left. So no, I did not have to fill anything out, nor was there a “form” or anything to indicate that there was anything else for me to do. I paid for it in full, by cashier’s check, before I ever even saw the car in person.

Sorry, I thought that when I paid in full for something, had the item delivered into my hands, along with a legal document including a title and bill of sale signed over to me, that this meant I owned the item in question. I guess that not knowing I had to fill out even MORE paperwork and somehow get the signature of an out-of-state seller on a local document means I deserve to pay several thousand dollars in fines as opposed to just copying a signature and paying the taxes on it. Please.

 

[LaSainte]

LaSainte, you seem to have made your mind up that this is OK, so why did you post the question? If you want a properly considered answer (not to say you haven’t already received such here), why not discuss this matter with your pastor?

I’m also a little unsure of the details. Does the title have the signature of the previous to last owner (the one before the ebay purchase), but it is simply not dated? If this were the case, why not just try to work with that, leave the date blank and if asked be vague and hope they’ll just write a recent date and process it. If you feel the fines are unreasonable, this may be a way to avoid them without actually telling any lies.

Of course, as other have suggested, you could just proceed with all honesty and hope to have the fines waived as it was an honest mistake.

These two courses of action would seem defensible. But deliberately lying on a legal document is not.

I’m going to the title hearing to get it straightened out. The person who owned it before skipped the title and sold it to me without ever even transferring it into his name, which makes it extremely complicated for me. I don’t want to do this to another person, which is why I am getting the title in my name first.

I would rather sell this car for parts, have the chassis towed to the DMV and set fire to that ***** than pay 3000 dollars over a piece of beurocratic paperwork I didn’t even know about.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

If someone suddenly told you that you had to get a title for every item in your home, and that you owed $10 per item that you own, to the point of being financially untenable, would you just voluntarily offer that money up?

I would do as the law required and then go to court and ask for a fine reduction. You have no excuse. You can legally fix this problem by taking responsibility for your actions and talking to the judge.

If you forge the person’s signature, you will get caught. Every licensed drivers’ signature is on file electronically through the DMV from when they renewed their drivers licence. When you take the title to the DMV, they will pull up your name as well as the other person’s name on the computer. When they see the signatures don’t match, they will start an investigation.

Before I got into law enforcement, I worked as a cashier to get myself through school. It’s not hard to notice that signatures don’t match. I have had people try to forge their spouse’s/parent’s signature and it never worked for them.

 

[LaSainte]

I would do as the law required and then go to court and ask for a fine reduction. You have no excuse. You can legally fix this problem by taking responsibility for your actions and talking to the judge.

If you forge the person’s signature, you will get caught. Every licensed drivers’ signature is on file electronically through the DMV from when they renewed their drivers licence. When you take the title to the DMV, they will pull up your name as well as the other person’s name on the computer. When they see the signatures don’t match, they will start an investigation.

Before I got into law enforcement, I worked as a cashier to get myself through school. It’s not hard to notice that signatures don’t match. I have had people try to forge their spouse’s/parent’s signature and it never worked for them.

Actually, I can duplicate the signature very well. Not a problem.

But, I don’t believe for a moment that you would choose to lose your house and make your family homeless over a fine like this. Sorry. I call ********.

And I AM going to he title hearing, as I said above. If the fine is not removed, I will get a bonded title. If that doesn’t work, I will not pay this absurdity. It is extortion.

 

[eyesopening]

Sorry, I can’t see this as grave matter. First off, civil laws and how serious the court deems an offense has nothing to do with whether or not it is grave matter according to God’s law.

And of course it’s an unjust law. It amounts to extortion.

The forgery part is hardly even the issue. It’s a title transfer for a car I BOUGHT and PAID FOR. I have the title and bill of sale with the owner’s signature and I have even checked the VIN to make sure it is not stolen. In fact, the man who sold it lives in California and obviously fully intended for me to put his signature on the title application for him. The car belongs to ME, I simply wasn’t aware of the title transfer process when I bought it. The government has NO right to demand in excess of 2500 dollars as “punishment” for not knowing every aspect of the law where this is concerned. Was it a dumb mistake? Sure. Do I OWE them this money? Absolutely NOT. I owe them the sales tax on the vehicle and the cost of the title.

When I run a stop sign that’s behind a bush, do I turn myself in and pay the fine, or do I think “Gee, I’m glad nobody saw that happen. Now I know about that stop sign”, and move on with my life? Why would I VOLUNTARILY pay thousands of dollars that they have no right to demand from me?

I will get a bonded title for less than it would cost me to honestly go in and pay the taxes on what I actually spent before I pay the government 2000 bucks for this non-working piece of **** car. I can do that “legally” and it would be cheaper. I just wanted to know what you all thought about me going in and honestly trying to pay the taxes I owe without the unfair penalty.

Now I see that from the point of view of the people here, I would be better off trying to screw the system through the “legal” route of a bonded title than to actually pay what I owe because of a silly signature and date on a title application for my own car.

Ok…

I’m not trying to kick a hornets nest, and I will not register an opinion on this issue because you have people on both sides coming at you. However, I noticed that you asked a legitimate question, but it really seemed that you were only looking for confirmation of what you already believed. This is evidenced by the fact that a couple of people told you that it would be wrong, but you immediately countered that you didn’t think that they were right. Why did you ask the question if you had already decided the answer? You even get quite angry over it, rather than weighing the two sides of the argument that you yourself requested by posting.

I hope you get this situation resolved with no financial or spiritual loss on your end.

 

[davidv]

Actually, I can duplicate the signature very well. Not a problem.

But, I don’t believe for a moment that you would choose to lose your house and make your family homeless over a fine like this. Sorry. I call ********.

And I AM going to he title hearing, as I said above. If the fine is not removed, I will get a bonded title. If that doesn’t work, I will not pay this absurdity. It is extortion.

You may want to consider this, as it seems you won’t accept a moral argument.

Forgery can be a federal offense and is also recognized as a criminal act in all 50 states. The jurisdiction over the crime will be dependent upon the circumstances. If a forgery has implications for victims in multiple states, it will most likely be a federal offense. If forgery is committed to defraud the government, it is also likely to lead to federal charges.
While there are no mandated minimum charges for forgery crimes, it is a felony offense. Every state has different laws that pertain to forgery, but often a conviction leads to jail time of up to 10 years and significant fines. Being convicted of a felony can create problems with future employment opportunities, regardless of the amount of time spent in prison for the crime. If you are being charged with forgery, an experienced criminal defense attorney can help protect your rights.

Source: legalinfo.com/content/criminal-law/crime-overview-forgery.html

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

But, I don’t believe for a moment that you would choose to lose your house and make your family homeless over a fine like this. Sorry. I call ********.

Have faith in God. There is no cross so big that cannot be bore. I’ve paid thousands of dollars in traffic fines during my youth while on student loans and having to make rent, pay bills etc. I took responsibility for my actions and either paid the fins in full over time, or had them reduced significantly. Like I said, if you’re respectful and explain your circumstances, while taking full responsibility, they will work with you. If you display the same attitude you’re displaying here, they will throw the book at you. You will be fined the full fine and any other legal ramifications. Further, if you don’t pay the fines, you will not be able to renew you’re licence, registration, insurance, etc. It’s better if you just co-operate.

 

[LaSainte]

Have faith in God. There is no cross so big that cannot be bore. I’ve paid thousands of dollars in traffic fines during my youth while on student loans and having to make rent, pay bills etc. I took responsibility for my actions and either paid the fins in full over time, or had them reduced significantly. Like I said, if you’re respectful and explain your circumstances, while taking full responsibility, they will work with you. If you display the same attitude you’re displaying here, they will throw the book at you. You will be fined the full fine and any other legal ramifications. Further, if you don’t pay the fines, you will not be able to renew you’re licence, registration, insurance, etc. It’s better if you just co-operate.

Yes. If they tell me I will have to pay the fine to title it, I will say thanks but no thanks and politely walk out. I will then sell off the parts of the car, tow the chassis to my father-in-law’s property, set that mofo on fire, and send the picture to the DMV with a note that says “Here’s what I think about your bullsh*t fine.” I will then use the burned-out chassis to start a shabby chic herb garden like the ones you see on Pinterest.

 

[LaSainte]

You may want to consider this, as it seems you won’t accept a moral argument.
Source: legalinfo.com/content/criminal-law/crime-overview-forgery.html

People do this all the time. I guarantee you they do not prosecute these cases or even question the Forms unless they have a specific reason to believe that you stole the car or something. It’s practically expected with an out-of-state purchase.

 

[LaSainte]

I’m not trying to kick a hornets nest, and I will not register an opinion on this issue because you have people on both sides coming at you. However, I noticed that you asked a legitimate question, but it really seemed that you were only looking for confirmation of what you already believed. This is evidenced by the fact that a couple of people told you that it would be wrong, but you immediately countered that you didn’t think that they were right. Why did you ask the question if you had already decided the answer? You even get quite angry over it, rather than weighing the two sides of the argument that you yourself requested by posting.

I hope you get this situation resolved with no financial or spiritual loss on your end.

I was initially asking for advice. The opposition has actually managed to convince me of my own opinion, which is that it is a ridiculously unjust law and it basically amounts to the government confiscating my money because I didn’t inform them of a private transaction I made 6 years ago.

When someone basically tells you they would rather have their home and possessions confiscated by the government and their family thrown out into the street rather than copy a man’s signature who would gladly offer it if he were able to be contacted, then I have to question the mental stability of the person involved as well as question their entire position.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I was initially asking for advice. The opposition has actually managed to convince me of my own opinion, which is that it is a ridiculously unjust law and it basically amounts to the government confiscating my money because I didn’t inform them of a private transaction I made 6 years ago.

When someone basically tells you they would rather have their home and possessions confiscated by the government and their family thrown out into the street rather than copy a man’s signature who would gladly offer it if he were able to be contacted, then I have to question the mental stability of the person involved as well as question their entire position.

GO TALK TO THEM.
They will be reasonable if you are reasonable. You’re just going to regret it if you forge and scam.

 

[LaSainte]

The idea that we are responsible for knowing every ridiculous law on the books is absurd. There are thousands upon thousands of them. The idea that the government can make an arbitrary law and then fine a person whatever they choose for breaking it is also absurd.

Did you know it’s illegal in Texas to carry wire cutters in your pocket because you might use them to rustle cattle? My husband’s Leatherman has wire cutters on it. Lets say he didn’t know about that law, and was walking around with his Multi-tool in his pocket like he always does. He gets stopped by the cops and fined 300,000 dollars or 5 years in prison. What is he supposed to do? Pay it? Voluntarily go to prison if he can’t?

Or can we, as THINKING human beings, OCCASIONALLY determine that the confiscatory and freedom-limiting policies of the government are outside of their parameters and immoral and act accordingly. Jesus said to pay your taxes, He didn’t say to give up any and all sense of personal freedom and property to the government. I have a right not to be stolen from. That money is not a tax and the government has NO right to it.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I still don’t see why the person who holds the original title cannot be contacted. I’m sure you have the name. Call.

You just can’t sign someone’s name on a legal document.