Can I forge a document?

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Or ask a lawyer. Consultations are normally free. Tell the lawyer your predicament. He / she might be able to give you advice that would avoid signing someone else’s name and a fine.

It would take a phone call.
 
LaSainte said:
I was initially asking for advice. The opposition has actually managed to convince me of my own opinion, which is that it is a ridiculously unjust law and it basically amounts to the government confiscating my money because I didn’t inform them of a private transaction I made 6 years ago.

When someone basically tells you they would rather have their home and possessions confiscated by the government and their family thrown out into the street rather than copy a man’s signature who would gladly offer it if he were able to be contacted, then I have to question the mental stability of the person involved as well as question their entire position.
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I’m sure Adam and Eve saw no harm at all in eating that itty bitty piece of fruit …

and certainly many people must have questioned the mental stability of those early Christian martyrs who lost their lives rather than go through the motions of worshipping pagan gods (by the way, they also had families to support who certainly suffered for the loss of those martyrs).

You think the law stinks. I get that. I may think it stinks to be childless. But I cannot morally remedy that by doing something wrong - say committing adultery with a man who is more fertile than my spouse. And you cannot morally remedy your situation by forgery. The fine may be awful and unjust, the law against forgery and perjury is perfectly just and good. Don’t break the latter because you dislike the former.

Get the law changed (get a petition going to your city or state government, call in the media and get your face on TV complaining about it) or get yourself a waiver from the fine. That way you may be helping others who are in the same fix as you as well as doing yourself good. Your way you only save your own skin but at the cost of committing a wrong.
 
Speaking as a former government bureaucrat myself, this seems to me to be less serious than it might appear. My first thought would be just to call up someone at the DMV and explain what happened and ask for advice, even anonymously. They might have a fairly simple solution that doesn’t cost thousands of dollars in fines.

I almost hate to admit it, after all this controversy, but I once did something similar myself, when buying a car that was sold by a rental car agency. The seller gave me title, and when I tried to re-title it, it seems that there were several other entities involved between the rental agency offices in a couple of states. The seller agency said they couldn’t fix it because those entities were really no longer existing; they were something like temporary subsidiaries, and there was nobody to sign for them. The DMV just wanted two extra signatures on a form, and I couldn’t get anyone to provide them.

Fine, I thought, after trying unsuccessfully to get it straightened out, I can provide two extra signatures myself–from people at my office. It wasn’t forgery—we signed our real names! DMV didn’t care, it just wanted the paperwork signed. There was no problem.
 
JimG said:
Speaking as a former government bureaucrat myself, this seems to me to be less serious than it might appear. My first thought would be just to call up someone at the DMV and explain what happened and ask for advice, even anonymously. They might have a fairly simple solution that doesn’t cost thousands of dollars in fines.

I almost hate to admit it, after all this controversy, but I once did something similar myself, when buying a car that was sold by a rental car agency. The seller gave me title, and when I tried to re-title it, it seems that there were several other entities involved between the rental agency offices in a couple of states. The seller agency said they couldn’t fix it because those entities were really no longer existing; they were something like temporary subsidiaries, and there was nobody to sign for them. The DMV just wanted two extra signatures on a form, and I couldn’t get anyone to provide them.

Fine, I thought, after trying unsuccessfully to get it straightened out, I can provide two extra signatures myself–from people at my office. It wasn’t forgery—we signed our real names! DMV didn’t care, it just wanted the paperwork signed. There was no problem.
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As you said, that wasn’t forgery. And it literally was impossible for you to go about things the right way as the previous owners did not even exist any more. Significant differences.
 
JimG said:
Speaking as a former government bureaucrat myself, this seems to me to be less serious than it might appear. My first thought would be just to call up someone at the DMV and explain what happened and ask for advice, even anonymously. They might have a fairly simple solution that doesn’t cost thousands of dollars in fines.

I almost hate to admit it, after all this controversy, but I once did something similar myself, when buying a car that was sold by a rental car agency. The seller gave me title, and when I tried to re-title it, it seems that there were several other entities involved between the rental agency offices in a couple of states. The seller agency said they couldn’t fix it because those entities were really no longer existing; they were something like temporary subsidiaries, and there was nobody to sign for them. The DMV just wanted two extra signatures on a form, and I couldn’t get anyone to provide them.

Fine, I thought, after trying unsuccessfully to get it straightened out, I can provide two extra signatures myself–from people at my office. It wasn’t forgery—we signed our real names! DMV didn’t care, it just wanted the paperwork signed. There was no problem.
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That is awesome.
 
LilyM said:
As you said, that wasn’t forgery. And it literally was impossible for you to go about things the right way as the previous owners did not even exist any more. Significant differences.
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True enough. Significant differences. But our signatures on the document did make us out to be agents of an entity which were were not. So that was deception.

My brother once sold an old car to a buyer who just hauled it off our driveway, because it didn’t work. Turns out he never retitled it either, because when it turned up as the subject of some police action, it was still in my brother’s name. I’m just saying that this is not all that unusual. What puzzles me is what state levies such huge fines which accrue on a monthly basis? And I’m thinking that if one appeals to a bureaucrat on an individual basis and seeks advice, there may be a way to work it out.
 
JimG said:
True enough. Significant differences. But our signatures on the document did make us out to be agents of an entity which were were not. So that was deception.

My brother once sold an old car to a buyer who just hauled it off our driveway, because it didn’t work. Turns out he never retitled it either, because when it turned up as the subject of some police action, it was still in my brother’s name. I’m just saying that this is not all that unusual. What puzzles me is what state levies such huge fines which accrue on a monthly basis? And I’m thinking that if one appeals to a bureaucrat on an individual basis and seeks advice, there may be a way to work it out.
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Entities which didn’t exist any more? If not, then in a sense you were their agents - they would have signed had they still been existing to do so but they were no longer existing.
 
LilyM said:
As you said, that wasn’t forgery. And it literally was impossible for you to go about things the right way as the previous owners did not even exist any more. Significant differences.
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In your mind, there is nothing in the world that can justify even the smallest venial sin. So I guess you don’t even have to bother going to confession like, EVER. For the rest of us mere mortals, there occasionally arises a moment in our lives when we feel the need to do the unthinkable: exceeding the speed limit slightly to get a loved one to the hospital, telling our children that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real, telling our mothers that no, the outfit she is wearing and has no opportunity to change doesn’t make her look fat. Yes, sometimes we tell little white lies or break little laws because the alternative is either unfair or socially awkward or dangerous or we just feel like instilling our kids’ childhood with a little bit of magic.

If the government wants to CONFISCATE my money, and the only way to avoid that is to copy a man’s signature that he would GLADLY give if he were present, I see no harm in that. Nobody is being hurt in the process.

Now, of course I am going to do what I can to rectify the situation within the bounds of the law, but seriously, if it comes down to it, I see no real harm in what I am proposing. I could sell it for parts and abandon the chassis, but that would also be illegal now wouldn’t it? AND I wouldn’t even be able to pay the tax that I actually OWE if I did it this way. I’m actually trying to do the right thing here, believe it or not. I’m just not going to bend over and take it in the keister in the process. The fact is, I don’t have the money, and even if I DID, the government has no right to it just because they say they do. They can cram it if they think they can charge me 3000 dollars just for not telling them about a car that I bought that can’t even be driven.
 
LaSainte said:
I’m going to the title hearing to get it straightened out. The person who owned it before skipped the title and sold it to me without ever even transferring it into his name, which makes it extremely complicated for me. I don’t want to do this to another person, which is why I am getting the title in my name first.

I would rather sell this car for parts, have the chassis towed to the DMV and set fire to that ***** than pay 3000 dollars over a piece of beurocratic paperwork I didn’t even know about.
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Good luck with the hearing. I’m sure…well, I hope…there will be a reasonable resolution.
 
LaSainte said:
In your mind, there is nothing in the world that can justify even the smallest venial sin. So I guess you don’t even have to bother going to confession like, EVER. For the rest of us mere mortals, there occasionally arises a moment in our lives when we feel the need to do the unthinkable: exceeding the speed limit slightly to get a loved one to the hospital, telling our children that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real, telling our mothers that no, the outfit she is wearing and has no opportunity to change doesn’t make her look fat. Yes, sometimes we tell little white lies or break little laws because the alternative is either unfair or socially awkward or dangerous or we just feel like installing our kids’ childhood with a little bit of magic.

If the government wants to CONFISCATE my money, and the only way to a kid that is to copy a man’s signature that he would GLADLY give if he were present, I see no harm in that. Nobody is being hurt in the process.

Now, of course I am going to do what I can to rectify the situation within the bounds of the law, but seriously, if it comes down to it, I see no real harm in what I am proposing. I could sell it for parts and abandon the chassis, but that would also be illegal now wouldn’t it? AND I wouldn’t even be able to pay the tax that I actually OWE if I did it this way. I’m actually trying to do the right thing here, believe it or not. I’m just not going to bend over and take it in the keister in the process.
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I never said it was the right thing to do for either of you, just that his circumstances were different and so possibly his guilt less. And forgery and perjury are not minor venial sins no matter how much good comes out of them.

As I said, Adam and Eve took one teeny little bite out of an apple. Look where it got them - and us.
 
LilyM said:
I never said it was the right thing to do for either of you, just that his circumstances were different and so possibly his guilt less. And forgery and perjury are not minor venial sins no matter how much good comes out of them.

As I said, Adam and Eve took one teeny little bite out of an apple. Look where it got them - and us.
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In what universe could this ever be considered grave matter? Nobody’s reputation is being hurt, no lives destroyed, nobody even minorly inconvenienced, no theft involved. It is laughable to actually think that someone could see grave matter in this. I left mass 5 minutes early once too because my kids were screaming their heads off. Guess I should go to confession.
 
LaSainte said:
In what universe could this ever be considered grave matter? Nobody’s reputation is being hurt, no lives destroyed, nobody even minorly inconvenienced, no theft involved. It is laughable to actually think that someone could see grave matter in this. I left mass 5 minutes early once too because my kids were screaming their heads off. Guess I should go to confession.
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Who was hurt or even minorly inconvenienced when Adam and Eve ate that fruit? Who is hurt or even minorly inconvenienced when we skip Mass on Sunday for no good reason (screaming kids are a very good reason).

The answer in all cases is first and foremost that we hurt and inconvenience God. In fact the fact that our sins hurt Him is the ONLY reason they are sins in the first place. Your car will not save your soul, neither will the money you save by forgery. Neither, as important as they are, will your family. All come second to obedience to God.

God is truth incarnate. We know from scripture that truth is a virtue He values incredibly highly. Any offence against truth is to at least some extent an offense against him. Most are not minor, as He is not only mjnorly interested in is being truthful.

Perjury and forgery are especially bad, the former being a lie under oath (ie calling to God or others to witness the truth of one’s lie) and the latter being an assumption of another’s identity for purposes of deception.
 
LaSainte said:
The idea that we are responsible for knowing every ridiculous law on the books is absurd. There are thousands upon thousands of them. The idea that the government can make an arbitrary law and then fine a person whatever they choose for breaking it is also absurd.

Did you know it’s illegal in Texas to carry wire cutters in your pocket because you might use them to rustle cattle? My husband’s Leatherman has wire cutters on it. Lets say he didn’t know about that law, and was walking around with his Multi-tool in his pocket like he always does. He gets stopped by the cops and fined 300,000 dollars or 5 years in prison. What is he supposed to do? Pay it? Voluntarily go to prison if he can’t?

Or can we, as THINKING human beings, OCCASIONALLY determine that the confiscatory and freedom-limiting policies of the government are outside of their parameters and immoral and act accordingly. Jesus said to pay your taxes, He didn’t say to give up any and all sense of personal freedom and property to the government. I have a right not to be stolen from. That money is not a tax and the government has NO right to it.
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I partially agree with what you are saying regarding civil disobedience. Obviously the old cattle rustling laws that are still on the books are no longer relevant. But that is why an agent of the law wouldn’t attempt to enforce that law, and even if they did, a judge would not uphold it. Again, I will not issue an opinion regarding the morality of your current situation, but I think (given your comment that I have quoted in this post) it is important to ask the question of: Where do we draw the line on which laws apply to us and which ones don’t? If we reject laws that are in our best interest to reject, and follow the ones that we feel are in our best interest to follow, then they cease to be laws. We end up in a world where everyone does whatever they want, whenever they want regardless of laws.

This is admittedly an extreme example:

A debtor has failed to pay me back for a loan that I am not inclined to forgive. So I or my representatives break into the debtors house when no one is home and take cash from the residence. Nothing is vandalized (lock picks were used to gain entry) and no one was hurt. I only took what was mine.

Obviously, this action is unjustified even though no one was hurt, no property was damaged, and nothing was technically stolen since he owed me money. (The debtor’s privacy and right to property was violated.)

Again, this does not relate directly to your issue, but it addresses your comments that laws are ok to break as long as it does not directly affect anyone.

Also, as someone who loves debate, I should point out to you that you appear to be beginning to rant which will lose you credibility with many of these people you are debating against. Keep it cool! :cool:
 
LilyM said:
Who was hurt or even minorly inconvenienced when Adam and Eve ate that fruit? Who is hurt or even minorly inconvenienced when we skip Mass on Sunday for no good reason (screaming kids are a very good reason).

The answer in all cases is first and foremost that we hurt and inconvenience God. In fact the fact that our sins hurt Him is the ONLY reason they are sins in the first place. Your car will not save your soul, neither will the money you save by forgery. Neither, as important as they are, will your family. All come second to obedience to God.

God is truth incarnate. We know from scripture that truth is a virtue He values incredibly highly. Any offence against truth is to at least some extent an offense against him. Most are not minor, as He is not only mjnorly interested in is being truthful.

Perjury and forgery are especially bad, the former being a lie under oath (ie calling to God or others to witness the truth of one’s lie) and the latter being an assumption of another’s identity for purposes of deception.
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You’re forgetting that God specifically told Adam and Eve, “I will kill you if you eat that apple.”

I don’t recall such an edict regarding anything even remotely resembling this situation. It breaks none of the 10 commandments and nobody is defrauded of any money. Reputations are not hurt. Justice is ultimately served.
 
eyesopening said:
I partially agree with what you are saying regarding civil disobedience. Obviously the old cattle rustling laws that are still on the books are no longer relevant. But that is why an agent of the law wouldn’t attempt to enforce that law, and even if they did, a judge would not uphold it. Again, I will not issue an opinion regarding the morality of your current situation, but I think (given your comment that I have quoted in this post) it is important to ask the question of: Where do we draw the line on which laws apply to us and which ones don’t? If we reject laws that are in our best interest to reject, and follow the ones that we feel are in our best interest to follow, then they cease to be laws. We end up in a world where everyone does whatever they want, whenever they want regardless of laws.

This is admittedly an extreme example:

A debtor has failed to pay me back for a loan that I am not inclined to forgive. So I or my representatives break into the debtors house when no one is home and take cash from the residence. Nothing is vandalized (lock picks were used to gain entry) and no one was hurt. I only took what was mine.

Obviously, this action is unjustified even though no one was hurt, no property was damaged, and nothing was technically stolen since he owed me money. (The debtor’s privacy and right to property was violated.)

Again, this does not relate directly to your issue, but it addresses your comments that laws are ok to break as long as it does not directly affect anyone.

Also, as someone who loves debate, I should point out to you that you appear to be beginning to rant which will lose you credibility with many of these people you are debating against. Keep it cool! :cool:
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If you have a debtor, you have legal recourse to help you to get your money back and see that justice is done. What happens when the government itself is offending justice and stripping me of my personal right to my own money?
 
LaSainte said:
If you have a debtor, you have legal recourse to help you to get your money back and see that justice is done. What happens when the government itself is offending justice and stripping me of my personal right to my own money?
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Well, what did the founding fathers of the US do when they had “taxation without representation”?
 
There is never a reason that makes it okay for us to commit even the smallest venial sin.
 
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