Can I forge a document?

[eyesopening]

I should push the car into Boston Harbor?

All I’m saying is the government taxes its citizens for many things. The government is what decides what is fair and what is not (whether they are just is another matter). Not the citizen. If we only paid those taxes we personally thought were fair it would strip the government of its ability to govern. Additionally many people would disagree about which taxes were fair and which were not etc. Now, a grass roots movement could form an organization to lobby the cessation of certain taxes and could take it to court to win. But that is something else entirely.

I don’t know if you are a Catholic or not, but your “middle-fingers-up” attitude isn’t going to give you an advantage. Most people will attempt to respect your point of view provided you give some signs that you respect theirs as well.

What you do in this situation is up to you of course, but you did come on a forum asking questions. And you got some answers.

 

[LilyM]

Like telling kids there is an Easter bunny?

That is akin to Jesus saying ‘once there was a Samaritan …’ or ‘once there was a prodigal son …’. Telling stories - with some sort of moral attached or out of humility for gift givers to disguise their own generosity - is far different from forging someone else’s signature to avoid a fine.

 

[LaSainte]

That is akin to Jesus saying ‘once there was a Samaritan …’ or ‘once there was a prodigal son …’. Telling stories - with some sort of moral attached or out of humility for gift givers to disguise their own generosity - is far different from forging someone else’s signature to avoid a fine.

I don’t think it’s quite the same thing. It is a lie that we accept. Jesus’ listeners KNEW he was speaking in parables. They didn’t believe the stories were actually true. The fact is, we tell lies about the Easter Bunny and Santa and the Tooth Fairy because it’s fun and also to control their behavior. It’s not to teach some elaborate moral lesson. We even go to extremely elaborate lengths to keep the lie going. But we know that these lies aren’t sins because our intentions are good and nobody gets hurt.

 

[LaSainte]

All I’m saying is the government taxes its citizens for many things. The government is what decides what is fair and what is not (whether they are just is another matter). Not the citizen. If we only paid those taxes we personally thought were fair it would strip the government of its ability to govern. Additionally many people would disagree about which taxes were fair and which were not etc. Now, a grass roots movement could form an organization to lobby the cessation of certain taxes and could take it to court to win. But that is something else entirely.

I don’t know if you are a Catholic or not, but your “middle-fingers-up” attitude isn’t going to give you an advantage. Most people will attempt to respect your point of view provided you give some signs that you respect theirs as well.

What you do in this situation is up to you of course, but you did come on a forum asking questions. And you got some answers.

But I WANT to pay the tax. I’m DYING to pay the tax on this car. It’s the exorbitant fee that they have no right to charge that I won’t pay. In fact, they would be WAY better off waiving the fee, because then I would be able to afford to title the car and actually pay them their precious tax. If they want to keep the fine in place, I won’t be able to afford to title it…so I will be forced to sell the parts off and abandon the chassis, keep it, work on it and title it in another more lenient state down the road, or abandon it.

 

[LilyM]

But I WANT to pay the tax. I’m DYING to pay the tax on this car. It’s the exorbitant fee that they have no right to charge that I won’t pay. In fact, they would be WAY better off waiving the fee, because then I would be able to afford to title the car and actually pay them their precious tax. If they want to keep the fine in place, I won’t be able to afford to title it…so I will be forced to sell the parts off and abandon the chassis, keep it, work on it and title it in another more lenient state down the road, or abandon it.

Well, if it is so obviously and manifestly unjust then almost certainly they will waive the fee.

If they do not waive it then you need to consider the possibility that it is not so terribly unjust - in their eyes AND God’s. Certainly you wouod not have been the first person in your predicament, so the law has probably been challenged before now.

Consider that you have possibly been at least a little negligent in not bothering to find out what the legal requirements are of putting a car into your name before you bought it.

Please note I do not say this is definitely the case, as I do not know your circumstances or the circumstances of the sale. But I do find it odd, as I said earlier, that I have never bought a car in my life but still had at least knew that there is far more to the process than you seemed to think.

 

[LaSainte]

Well, if it is so obviously and manifestly unjust then almost certainly they will waive the fee.

If they do not waive it then you need to consider the possibility that it is not so terribly unjust - in their eyes AND God’s. Certainly you wouod not have been the first person in your predicament, so the law has probably been challenged before now.

Consider that you have possibly been at least a little negligent in not bothering to find out what the legal requirements are of putting a car into your name before you bought it.

Please note I do not say this is definitely the case, as I do not know your circumstances or the circumstances of the sale. But I do find it odd, as I said earlier, that I have never bought a car in my life but still had at least knew that there is far more to the process than you seemed to think.

So just because the government says something is just means that it is just in God’s eyes? Like abortion? The healthcare mandate? The Patriot Act? The inheritance tax? The government doesn’t exactly have the best track record when it comes to meting out justice or
Protecting the rights of its citizens. Since when does God have ANYTHING to do with the government

 

[eyesopening]

So just because the government says something is just means that it is just in God’s eyes? Like abortion? The healthcare mandate? The Patriot Act? The inheritance tax? The government doesn’t exactly have the best track record when it comes to meting out justice or
Protecting the rights of its citizens. Since when does God have ANYTHING to do with the government

The bill of rights guarantees us certain rights. When the government infringes upon them we have the right to fight back, civil disobedience, etc. These rights include religious rights, free speech, etc. Very importantly is what this right means. It means the government will never force me to do something that is against my religion. It does not mean that my religion can do whatever it wants (i.e. human sacrifice).

The government never gave us a right to avoid any amount of civil taxation they throw at us. Just because we don’t like a tax (or fee or whatever) does not give us the “RIGHT” to do what we want. The exception would be if I were being taxed for someone else’s abortions which would violate my religious freedoms.

Your referral to things like the healthcare mandate infringe upon religious freedoms. So they are a bit different from taxation.

I frankly agree that you should not be made to pay big bucks because of an error, but I still think you should go through legal channels to achieve this, if possible.

Besides, it really sounds like you already know what you are going to do.

 

[LaSainte]

The bill of rights guarantees us certain rights. When the government infringes upon them we have the right to fight back, civil disobedience, etc. These rights include religious rights, free speech, etc. Very importantly is what this right means. It means the government will never force me to do something that is against my religion. It does not mean that my religion can do whatever it wants (i.e. human sacrifice).

The government never gave us a right to avoid any amount of civil taxation they throw at us. Just because we don’t like a tax (or fee or whatever) does not give us the “RIGHT” to do what we want. The exception would be if I were being taxed for someone else’s abortions which would violate my religious freedoms.

Your referral to things like the healthcare mandate infringe upon religious freedoms. So they are a bit different from taxation.

I frankly agree that you should not be made to pay big bucks because of an error, but I still think you should go through legal channels to achieve this, if possible.

Besides, it really sounds like you already know what you are going to do.

I’m going to get a title hearing and then go from there. Just getting the title hearing is an enormous pain though. I have to send certified letters from the post office to each of the previous owners telling them about it and bring those copies to the DMV in downtown Houston, fill out forms, present my evidence, etc. Hubby is traveling for work so I will have to do all of this with a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old in tow. Actually, I have to FLY alone with my 2 kids, carseats, etc. to Houston to go to my brother’s surprise wedding ($1000) and do this while I am there, so I’m really looking forward to the upcoming week, and to being told I have to pay 3 grand to title a non-working car that I put 16 grand into and MIGHT be able to sell for 7 once I pay $1000 to get it running. Did I mention we have 12 grand in credit card debt? Yay.

Seriously, if they tell me I have to pay that much I’m just going to tell them to forget it. I can’t pay the fine. I can’t even really afford to pay the tax, but that is at least a legitimate tax and not a government-sanctioned rape.

 

[LaSainte]

Also, the government doesn’t “give” us rights. We HAVE rights intrinsically. The bill of rights only recognizes some of those rights that we already have to clarify them so that they can never be questioned-sort of how the Church has certain dogmas defined so as to clarify them for us and assure us of things that will never be changed. We have many rights above and beyond those formally enumerated by the Constitution, just as there are many dogmas that are not for ally specified by the Catholic Church.

The government didn’t GIVE slaves the right to personal freedom. That is a right that every human being has, and if the government fails to protect that right, or worse, starts actively creating laws that enslave the people, we have a RIGHT to stand up and say “NO”, I refuse to comply with this."

When the government starts TAKING people’s money and private property as payment for not complying with a law that is actually a huge violation of personal freedom and privacy to begin with, then I too have the right to say “NO, I refuse to comply with this.” Of course, when we do this, we run the risk of being imprisoned or otherwise punished (such as the refusal to pay inheritance tax or exorbitant income tax), but it is still our right.

The government cannot just take whatever it wants and force us to comply. Many people would actually say that it is immoral to comply with unfair and unjust laws because we are merely contributing to the problem.

How many female saints were martyred because they refused to be married off to someone that their parents (AND the laws of the time) dictated that they should marry because they had pledged themselves to God? It would have not have been a sin for them to marry, and in NOT complying, they were in fact breaking the law. If people like this had not stood up for themselves and refused the law, then laws like that may still be around today.

How many people have disguised themselves for similar reasons, women masquerading as men and boys so as to avoid some injustice or to be able to fight in a war when the government said women were not permitted to fight? Surely, they were assuming the identities of another so as to avoid some perceived injustice? To hell wih them?

 

[kisper]

…Did you know it’s illegal in Texas to carry wire cutters in your pocket because you might use them to rustle cattle? My husband’s Leatherman has wire cutters on it. Lets say he didn’t know about that law, and was walking around with his Multi-tool in his pocket like he always does. He gets stopped by the cops and fined 300,000 dollars or 5 years in prison. What is he supposed to do? Pay it? Voluntarily go to prison if he can’t?

Your husband would be advised as you have been: plead the case before the relevant authority.

I hope the hearing goes well. Pray tell us what comes of it.
I can sympathize with you. It does seem like a raw deal. Do they tell people about these things in driver’s education courses?? I don’t remember it.

Like telling kids there is an Easter bunny?

This is a type of logical fallacy known as “tu quoque.” An appeal to hypocrisy does not strengthen your argument that forgery would not be a sin; it only misses the point.

You’re forgetting that God specifically told Adam and Eve, “I will kill you if you eat that apple.”

Your memory is not entirely accurate. And no, it’s not just semantics.
www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/2:

Genesis 2: 16-17
16 The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.

God did not kill Adam and Eve, they did. They brought death into this world as a consequence of their disobedience towards God’s will.
It is similar to when a parent warns a child not go to a party where there is alcohol. There are consequences for disobeying: physical, relational, legal, et cetera.

Some hopefully soothing words:

1 Peter, CHAPTER 2

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

www.usccb.org

1 Peter 2: 19-25
19 For whenever anyone bears the pain of unjust suffering because of consciousness of God, that is a grace.
20 But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God.
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.
22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
23 When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.
24 He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
25 For you had gone astray like sheep, but you have now returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

I ask forgiveness for the hostile reaction that you have received from some. Please understand that others might have felt that, when you initially posted, you were not receptive to their opposing statements. Rather, based on later posts, they assumed that you had come simply to be affirmed or to argue. I understand how frustrating the whole thing is. I hope all turns out well :console:

 

[eyesopening]

Also, the government doesn’t “give” us rights. We HAVE rights intrinsically. The bill of rights only recognizes some of those rights that we already have to clarify them so that they can never be questioned-sort of how the Church has certain dogmas defined so as to clarify them for us and assure us of things that will never be changed. We have many rights above and beyond those formally enumerated by the Constitution, just as there are many dogmas that are not for ally specified by the Catholic Church.

That’s right!!

The government didn’t GIVE slaves the right to personal freedom. That is a right that every human being has, and if the government fails to protect that right, or worse, starts actively creating laws that enslave the people, we have a RIGHT to stand up and say “NO”, I refuse to comply with this."

I totally agree!

When the government starts TAKING people’s money and private property as payment for not complying with a law that is actually a huge violation of personal freedom and privacy to begin with, then I too have the right to say “NO, I refuse to comply with this.”

This is where I start to get nervous. If we were really talking about some sort of civil rights issue I’d agree with you, but we’re talking about civic fees relating to auto ownership. (Fees that will probably be waved anyway.) I’m just not sure that these qualify for the same kind of civil disobedience that we associate with the revolution, the emancipation, or the civil rights act. If my own personal judgement is the measure of whether the government is fair or not I could elect to civilly disobey any law I want! “It is inconvenient and expensive to have my DL renewed, so I won’t.” “I choose not to pay my income taxes because they are expensive and inconvenient. I revolt!” These are things that a person could of course choose to do, and like you said, they could most certainly suffer whatever consequences the government chose to dish out. But if we are talking about whether a person can justly do these things, that’s another story.

Of course, when we do this, we run the risk of being imprisoned or otherwise punished (such as the refusal to pay inheritance tax or exorbitant income tax), but it is still our right.

The government cannot just take whatever it wants and force us to comply. Many people would actually say that it is immoral to comply with unfair and unjust laws because we are merely contributing to the problem.

Yes, but are you ready to start a revolution? If not you’ll just have to suck it up and do what they say.

How many female saints were martyred because they refused to be married off to someone that their parents (AND the laws of the time) dictated that they should marry because they had pledged themselves to God? It would have not have been a sin for them to marry, and in NOT complying, they were in fact breaking the law. If people like this had not stood up for themselves and refused the law, then laws like that may still be around today.

How many people have disguised themselves for similar reasons, women masquerading as men and boys so as to avoid some injustice or to be able to fight in a war when the government said women were not permitted to fight? Surely, they were assuming the identities of another so as to avoid some perceived injustice? To hell wih them?

Now we’re just getting off topic. No one could remotely believe that one who chooses to not pay back taxes/fees etc for an automobile can be compared to the great Saints who exercised civil disobedience. I think an important point that should be made is that your civil rights are not being violated. This is not a fee that black people must pay, or that hindus must pay. This is a fee that everyone has to pay that did not have their paperwork in order (and of course, you can possibly get that fee waved).

If the waver is rejected, then you can get bent out of shape about it. But wavers exist for exactly this type of reason. Perhaps the government that you think is being so unreasonable will look at your situation and say, “oh sure, we can make an exception for that.” You just don’t know unless you ask. Instead of deliberately being sneaky for no reason, why not just investigate and see what they will offer you?

I’ve enjoyed talking about this with you!

 

[LaSainte]

Your husband would be advised as you have been: plead the case before the relevant authority.

I hope the hearing goes well. Pray tell us what comes of it.
I can sympathize with you. It does seem like a raw deal. Do they tell people about these things in driver’s education courses?? I don’t remember it.

This is a type of logical fallacy known as “tu quoque.” An appeal to hypocrisy does not strengthen your argument that forgery would not be a sin; it only misses the point.

Your memory is not entirely accurate. And no, it’s not just semantics.
God did not kill Adam and Eve, they did. They brought death into this world as a consequence of their disobedience towards God’s will.
It is similar to when a parent warns a child not go to a party where there is alcohol. There are consequences for disobeying: physical, relational, legal, et cetera.

Some hopefully soothing words:

I ask forgiveness for the hostile reaction that you have received from some. Please understand that others might have felt that, when you initially posted, you were not receptive to their opposing statements. Rather, based on later posts, they assumed that you had come simply to be affirmed or to argue. I understand how frustrating the whole thing is. I hope all turns out well :console:

Thank you! I really do appreciate the response. I know that God did not really tell Adam and Eve that he would kill them, but he controls everything. It’s not quite the same as telling your kids not to play in the street. I do that because things I can of control are out there and have the ability to harm my child. If I could stop a course of action that could potentially hurt my child, then people would say I was a bad parent if I just said “Don’t go in the street.” And then proceeded not to yank them out of the way of a speeding car.

God set up the consequences for eating from the tree and then TOLD Adam and Eve what would happen if they did. He did not jump in to stop them from eating the apple.

I guess it’s kind of like the parent who lets their kid get busted for smoking pot rather than going through their stuff and just taking it. And then bails them out of jail I suppose it teaches a better lesson?

 

[LaSainte]

That’s right!!

I totally agree!

This is where I start to get nervous. If we were really talking about some sort of civil rights issue I’d agree with you, but we’re talking about civic fees relating to auto ownership. (Fees that will probably be waved anyway.) I’m just not sure that these qualify for the same kind of civil disobedience that we associate with the revolution, the emancipation, or the civil rights act. If my own personal judgement is the measure of whether the government is fair or not I could elect to civilly disobey any law I want! “It is inconvenient and expensive to have my DL renewed, so I won’t.” “I choose not to pay my income taxes because they are expensive and inconvenient. I revolt!” These are things that a person could of course choose to do, and like you said, they could most certainly suffer whatever consequences the government chose to dish out. But if we are talking about whether a person can justly do these things, that’s another story.

And thanks, I too have enjoyed our discussion. I will keep everyone posted

Yes, but are you ready to start a revolution? If not you’ll just have to suck it up and do what they say.

Now we’re just getting off topic. No one could remotely believe that one who chooses to not pay back taxes/fees etc for an automobile can be compared to the great Saints who exercised civil disobedience. I think an important point that should be made is that your civil rights are not being violated. This is not a fee that black people must pay, or that hindus must pay. This is a fee that everyone has to pay that did not have their paperwork in order (and of course, you can possibly get that fee waved).

If the waver is rejected, then you can get bent out of shape about it. But wavers exist for exactly this type of reason. Perhaps the government that you think is being so unreasonable will look at your situation and say, “oh sure, we can make an exception for that.” You just don’t know unless you ask. Instead of deliberately being sneaky for no reason, why not just investigate and see what they will offer you?

I’ve enjoyed talking about this with you!

Well, I hope it doesn’t come down to me not paying the fine, because I can’t afford it, and I’m not going into further debt over this. I want to pay the taxes that I rightfully owe. The seller even left the price blank. I could say I paid 500 and nobody would think twice about it, being a 1965 car. But I really DO want to pay the tax and be done with it. They will only be screwing themselves if they don’t grant a waiver, because I can get the taxes together, but I’m not ABOUT to but 4 grand on my credit card when I could just say “no thanks” and walk out.