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Anna_Scott
Guest
I do, indeed.
- Status
J
JustaServant
Guest
Story’s in my sig.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
While we are on the subject of Protestant Bibles and Catholic Bibles; I have a question regarding Luke 3:21-22. There are variants among both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles concerning the words of the voice from heaven upon the Baptism of Jesus.
Some translations say, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”
Other translations say, “You are my Son; today have I fathered you,” or “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
There seems to be a huge difference between the variants.
I know there were a group of Christians known as Adoptionists, who believed Christ was adopted as God’s Son upon Baptism.
If Jesus was “fathered” or “begotten” on the day of His Baptism, what does this mean? Can anyone explain this?
Luke 3:21-22
International Standard Version (ISV)
Jesus Is Baptized 21 When all the people had been baptized, Jesus, too, was baptized. While he was praying, heaven opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. Then a voice came from heaven, saying, (Footnote: The Gk. Lacks saying) “You are my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with you!” (Footnote: Other Mss. Read You are my Son, Today I have become your Father”)
Luke 3:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when(A) Jesus also had been baptized and was praying,(B) the heavens were opened, 22 and(C) the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and(D) a voice came from heaven,(E) “You are my beloved Son;[a] with you I am well pleased.”** Footnotes: a. Luke 3:22 Or my Son, my (or the) Beloved; b. Luke 3:22 Some manuscripts beloved Son, today I have begotten you**.
Luke 3:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:21-22
Christian Community Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Jesus is baptized by John 21 Now, with all the people who came to be baptized, Jesus too was baptized. Then, while he was praying, the heavens opened: 22 the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the bodily form of a dove and a voice from heaven was heard, “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
Luke 3:21-22
Good News Translation (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
The Baptism of Jesus 21 After all the people had been baptized, Jesus also was baptized. While he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit came down upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my own dear Son. I am pleased with you."
Luke 3:21-22
Jerusalem Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Jesus is baptized 21 Now when all the people had been baptized and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily shape, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven,** “You are my Son, the Beloved; my favor rests on you.”**
Luke 3:21-22
New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you.’
Luke 3:21-22
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
Luke 3:21-22
(NRSV) Catholic Bible (Anglicized) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
Some translations say, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”
Other translations say, “You are my Son; today have I fathered you,” or “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
There seems to be a huge difference between the variants.
I know there were a group of Christians known as Adoptionists, who believed Christ was adopted as God’s Son upon Baptism.
If Jesus was “fathered” or “begotten” on the day of His Baptism, what does this mean? Can anyone explain this?
Luke 3:21-22
International Standard Version (ISV)
Jesus Is Baptized 21 When all the people had been baptized, Jesus, too, was baptized. While he was praying, heaven opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. Then a voice came from heaven, saying, (Footnote: The Gk. Lacks saying) “You are my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with you!” (Footnote: Other Mss. Read You are my Son, Today I have become your Father”)
Luke 3:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when(A) Jesus also had been baptized and was praying,(B) the heavens were opened, 22 and(C) the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and(D) a voice came from heaven,(E) “You are my beloved Son;[a] with you I am well pleased.”** Footnotes: a. Luke 3:22 Or my Son, my (or the) Beloved; b. Luke 3:22 Some manuscripts beloved Son, today I have begotten you**.
Luke 3:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:21-22
Christian Community Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Jesus is baptized by John 21 Now, with all the people who came to be baptized, Jesus too was baptized. Then, while he was praying, the heavens opened: 22 the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the bodily form of a dove and a voice from heaven was heard, “You are my Son, this day I have begotten you.”
Luke 3:21-22
Good News Translation (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
The Baptism of Jesus 21 After all the people had been baptized, Jesus also was baptized. While he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit came down upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my own dear Son. I am pleased with you."
Luke 3:21-22
Jerusalem Bible (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Jesus is baptized 21 Now when all the people had been baptized and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily shape, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven,** “You are my Son, the Beloved; my favor rests on you.”**
Luke 3:21-22
New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
Jesus is baptised 21 Now it happened that when all the people had been baptised and while Jesus after his own baptism was at prayer, heaven opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in a physical form, like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son; today have I fathered you.’
Luke 3:21-22
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
Luke 3:21-22
(NRSV) Catholic Bible (Anglicized) (The Catholic Comparative New Testament)
The Baptism of Jesus 21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved (Or my beloved Son) with you I am well pleased. (other ancient authorities read You are my Son, today I have begotten you.)
R
RosaryCrusader
Guest
Protestant Bibles are not the word of God. They have no value outside of apologetics.
I would burn them. They also make good doorstops.
I would burn them. They also make good doorstops.
T
TristanCross
Guest
I don’t like your heart…if you have one…
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adstrinity
Guest
… You have a shrine to Guy Fawkes, don’t you?
J
JustaServant
Guest
Only facists burn books.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
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TristanCross
Guest
Anna,
Luke 3:21 ᾿Εγένετο δὲ ἐν τῷ βαπτισθῆναι ἅπαντα τὸν λαὸν καὶ ᾿Ιησοῦ βαπτισθέντος καὶ προσευχομένου ἀνεῳχθῆναι τὸν οὐρανὸν
Luke 3:22 καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ῞Αγιον σωματικῷ, εἴδει ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι λάγουσαν· σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.
The King James Version of the Bible gave a good, literal translation of this:
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
So does the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible
Luke 3:21-22 DRB
(21) Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened.
(22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove, upon him. And a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son. In thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:21 ᾿Εγένετο δὲ ἐν τῷ βαπτισθῆναι ἅπαντα τὸν λαὸν καὶ ᾿Ιησοῦ βαπτισθέντος καὶ προσευχομένου ἀνεῳχθῆναι τὸν οὐρανὸν
Luke 3:22 καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ῞Αγιον σωματικῷ, εἴδει ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι λάγουσαν· σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.
The King James Version of the Bible gave a good, literal translation of this:
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
So does the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible
Luke 3:21-22 DRB
(21) Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened.
(22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove, upon him. And a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son. In thee I am well pleased.
P
PKinsale
Guest
Interesting shift in perspective over time;
“A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.” (Catechism of Pius X)
MORE HERE:
rencesvals.blogspot.com/2009/07/burning-protestant-bibles.html
“A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.” (Catechism of Pius X)
MORE HERE:
rencesvals.blogspot.com/2009/07/burning-protestant-bibles.html
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TristanCross
Guest
The Apostles held on to the books the Jews accepted. Was that heresy?
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TristanCross
Guest
I’ve seen many Catholic quote KJV. It’s a beautiful and yes, a majestic translation. The style of writing is just amazing.
B
brigid12
Guest
Anna,
Please remember that the KJV and DRB were developed from information/manuscripts that are (in some cases) no longer available. Although scholarship may seem to have advanced and certainly archeological knowledge has - contemporary scholars are also influenced by a post-Christian culture that has gotten (sometimes) a little “big for it’s boots” at times and the translations that come of that don’t have the clarity of vision that a reliable translation should have. Whenever I’m in doubt, I trust those older translations, due to that.
The Catechism of St. Pius X is possibly not culturally applicable to us, in that history and culture has gotten to a very different point (not necessarily a better point at all), or not as applicable in certain specific ways?
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excelsus
Guest
The Douay-Rheims revised by Challoner is also a great (magnificent) translation. It’s very close to the KJV (I think - I’ve never actually read the KJV, I always read the DR anyway).I’ve seen many Catholic quote KJV. It’s a beautiful and yes, a majestic translation. The style of writing is just amazing.
About the Luke 3:22 thing (considering we know the Clementine Vulgate is good stuff as per the Council of Trent) “Tu es filius meus dilectus, in te complacui mihi.” = “Thou art my dear son, in thee I am pleased.”
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
Don’t know 'em. Don’t have any shrines either.
Not so… the Church has rightly burned faulty translations of the Bible for centuries.
See above comment.
See above comment.
Why all the tears shed over burnt literature? Would you feel the same about burning a sexually explicit love novel? You know, my local parish had a used book sale once. I saw a hardcover book by Hans Kung for 50 cents. I couldn’t pass it up. I bought it so no one would innocently stumble upon this heretic’s works and we had a good ol’ fashion book burning in the back yard.
Best 50 cents I ever spent.
P.S. Just because a book says “Holy Bible” on it does not mean it’s the inspired word of God. The Jehovah’s witnesses version says the same. I
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TristanCross
Guest
I’ll pray for you, Sir.
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adstrinity
Guest
Already more Catholic than you think, you are!I’ll pray for you, Sir.
(That’s a compliment, btw.)
And, incidentally, even if was a JW or LDS translation, I would still ask you to keep it just so you could see the distinction in translations. Protestant Bibles are alright to keep. Cleaning my Gram’s house, I ran across a Common Book of Prayer!
Never read it, but, I now have it in my library, should I ever need it.
H
Hesychios
Guest
The burning of books, and the burying of scholars…
http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/images/exbig_images/30e9538ea98b408bf0a87b1a4bbe9605.jpg
Qin Dynasty, China
http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/images/exbig_images/30e9538ea98b408bf0a87b1a4bbe9605.jpg
Qin Dynasty, China
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
For those naysayers about burning protestant bibles:
From EWTN’s library:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm
32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.
From EWTN’s library:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm
32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
O.K., you know that I am Protestant. Please don’t lynch me yet.
This is a quote from the*** Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version***, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:
"For four hundred years, following upon the great upheaval of the Reformation, Catholics and Protestants have gone their separate ways and suspected each other’s translations of the Bible of having been in some way manipulated in the interests of doctrinal presuppositions. It must be admitted that these suspicions were not always without foundation. At the present time, however, the sciences of textual criticism and philology, not to mention others, have made such great advances that the Bible text used by translators is substantially the same for all–Protestants and Catholics alike."
If you click on the Faith Tab at the top of this website, you can find a Bible Translations Guide. Again, this is a Catholic Resource.
Link: catholic.com/library/Bible_Translations_Guide.asp
"What is the Best Bible?
. . . A second question you will need to ask yourself is whether you want an old or a modern translation. Older versions, such as the King James and the Douay-Rheims, can sound more dignified, authoritative, and inspiring. But they are much harder to read and understand because English has changed in the almost four hundred years since they were done.
One down side to using certain modern translations is that they do not use the traditional renderings of certain passages and phrases, and the reader may find this annoying. The “Good News Bible” or TEV is especially known for non-traditional renderings. For example, “the abomination of desolation” referred to in the book of Daniel and the Gospels is called “the awful horror,” and the ark of the covenant is known as “the covenant box.”
Some Protestants will tell you that the only acceptable version of the Bible is the King James. This position is known as King James-onlyism. Its advocates often make jokes such as, “If the King James Version was good enough for the apostle Paul, it is good enough for me,” or, “My King James Version corrects your Greek text.”
They commonly claim that the King James is based on the only perfect set of manuscripts we have (a false claim; there is no perfect set of manuscripts; and the ones used for the KJV were compiled by a Catholic, Erasmus), that it is the only translation that avoids modern, liberal renderings, and that its translators were extremely saintly and scholarly men. Since the King James is also known as “the Authorized Version” (AV), its advocates sometimes argue that it is the only version to ever have been “authorized.” To this one may point out that it was only authorized in the Anglican church, which now uses other translations. For a still-in print critique of King James-onlyism, see D. A. Carson, The King James Version Debate, A Plea for Realism (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979).
**As amusing as King James-onlyism may sound, some people take it very seriously. There is even a Catholic equivalent, which we might call “Douay-Rheims-onlyism.” **The Douay-Rheims version, which predates the King James by a few years, (the complete KJV was published in 1611, but the complete Douay-Rheims in 1609) was the standard Bible for English-speaking Catholics until the twentieth century.
What many advocates of both King James-onlyism and Douay-Rheims-onlyism do not know is that neither Bible is the original issued in the 1600s. Over the last three centuries, numerous minor changes (for example, of spelling and grammar) have been made in the King James, with the result that most versions of the KJV currently on the market are significantly different from the original. This has led one publisher to recently re-issue the 1611 King James Version Bible.
The Douay-Rheims currently on the market is also not the original, 1609 version. It is technically called the “Douay-Challoner” version because it is a revision of the Douay-Rheims done in the mid-eighteenth century by Bishop Richard Challoner. He also consulted early Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, meaning that the Douay Bible currently on the market is not simply a translation of the Vulgate (which many of its advocates do not realize).
For most the question of whether to use an old or a modern translation is not so pointed, and once a decision has been reached on this question it is possible to select a particular Bible version with relative ease.
We recommend staying away from translations with unconventional renderings, such as the TEV, and suggest using the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. This is a Church-approved version of the RSV that has a few, minor changes in the New Testament. It has been reissued by Ignatius Press under the title The Ignatius Bible (available from Catholic Answers in both hardcover and paperback formats).
In the end, there may not be a need to select only one translation of the Bible to use. There is no reason why a Catholic cannot collect several versions of the Bible, aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each. It is often possible to get a better sense of what is being said in a passage by comparing several different translations. So, which Bible is the best? Perhaps the best answer is this: The one you’ll read."
So, what is it that you want to burn so badly? The KJV? the RSV?
This is a quote from the*** Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version***, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:
"For four hundred years, following upon the great upheaval of the Reformation, Catholics and Protestants have gone their separate ways and suspected each other’s translations of the Bible of having been in some way manipulated in the interests of doctrinal presuppositions. It must be admitted that these suspicions were not always without foundation. At the present time, however, the sciences of textual criticism and philology, not to mention others, have made such great advances that the Bible text used by translators is substantially the same for all–Protestants and Catholics alike."
If you click on the Faith Tab at the top of this website, you can find a Bible Translations Guide. Again, this is a Catholic Resource.
Link: catholic.com/library/Bible_Translations_Guide.asp
"What is the Best Bible?
. . . A second question you will need to ask yourself is whether you want an old or a modern translation. Older versions, such as the King James and the Douay-Rheims, can sound more dignified, authoritative, and inspiring. But they are much harder to read and understand because English has changed in the almost four hundred years since they were done.
One down side to using certain modern translations is that they do not use the traditional renderings of certain passages and phrases, and the reader may find this annoying. The “Good News Bible” or TEV is especially known for non-traditional renderings. For example, “the abomination of desolation” referred to in the book of Daniel and the Gospels is called “the awful horror,” and the ark of the covenant is known as “the covenant box.”
Some Protestants will tell you that the only acceptable version of the Bible is the King James. This position is known as King James-onlyism. Its advocates often make jokes such as, “If the King James Version was good enough for the apostle Paul, it is good enough for me,” or, “My King James Version corrects your Greek text.”
They commonly claim that the King James is based on the only perfect set of manuscripts we have (a false claim; there is no perfect set of manuscripts; and the ones used for the KJV were compiled by a Catholic, Erasmus), that it is the only translation that avoids modern, liberal renderings, and that its translators were extremely saintly and scholarly men. Since the King James is also known as “the Authorized Version” (AV), its advocates sometimes argue that it is the only version to ever have been “authorized.” To this one may point out that it was only authorized in the Anglican church, which now uses other translations. For a still-in print critique of King James-onlyism, see D. A. Carson, The King James Version Debate, A Plea for Realism (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979).
**As amusing as King James-onlyism may sound, some people take it very seriously. There is even a Catholic equivalent, which we might call “Douay-Rheims-onlyism.” **The Douay-Rheims version, which predates the King James by a few years, (the complete KJV was published in 1611, but the complete Douay-Rheims in 1609) was the standard Bible for English-speaking Catholics until the twentieth century.
What many advocates of both King James-onlyism and Douay-Rheims-onlyism do not know is that neither Bible is the original issued in the 1600s. Over the last three centuries, numerous minor changes (for example, of spelling and grammar) have been made in the King James, with the result that most versions of the KJV currently on the market are significantly different from the original. This has led one publisher to recently re-issue the 1611 King James Version Bible.
The Douay-Rheims currently on the market is also not the original, 1609 version. It is technically called the “Douay-Challoner” version because it is a revision of the Douay-Rheims done in the mid-eighteenth century by Bishop Richard Challoner. He also consulted early Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, meaning that the Douay Bible currently on the market is not simply a translation of the Vulgate (which many of its advocates do not realize).
For most the question of whether to use an old or a modern translation is not so pointed, and once a decision has been reached on this question it is possible to select a particular Bible version with relative ease.
We recommend staying away from translations with unconventional renderings, such as the TEV, and suggest using the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. This is a Church-approved version of the RSV that has a few, minor changes in the New Testament. It has been reissued by Ignatius Press under the title The Ignatius Bible (available from Catholic Answers in both hardcover and paperback formats).
In the end, there may not be a need to select only one translation of the Bible to use. There is no reason why a Catholic cannot collect several versions of the Bible, aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each. It is often possible to get a better sense of what is being said in a passage by comparing several different translations. So, which Bible is the best? Perhaps the best answer is this: The one you’ll read."
So, what is it that you want to burn so badly? The KJV? the RSV?
- Status