Can I still call myself Catholic?

[char1963]

Ok, so I am taking a step back. I heard something in Church yesterday that disturbed me greatly. There was a prayer that said " Let us pray that Mary will lead the children" ( in their religon class) That didnt sound like asking Mary to pray *for * them. This is the dogma I am having a huge issue with. Why do we need the virgin Mary to intercede for us?

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Ok, so I am taking a step back. I heard something in Church yesterday that disturbed me greatly. There was a prayer that said " Let us pray that Mary will lead the children" ( in their religon class) That didnt sound like asking Mary to pray *for * them. This is the dogma I am having a huge issue with. Why do we need the virgin Mary to intercede for us?

Mary leads by her example, as any good mother does. She gives us:

• the example of humility (Luke 1:48, “For He has looked upon His handmaid’s lowliness”)
• the example of obedience (Luke 1:38, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word”)
• the example of prayerful meditation (Luke 2:19, “And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart”)
• the example of staying with Jesus even when it brings us suffering (John 19:25, “Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother …”).

She gives us good maternal advice, reminding us to obey Jesus (John 2:5, “Do whatever He tells you”).

You ask, “Why do we need the virgin Mary to intercede for us?” Why wouldn’t we WANT the virgin Mary to intercede for us? She is part of the Communion of Saints (Christians on earth, in heaven, and in Purgatory), and all of us (on earth, in heaven, and in Purgatory) are bound by the law of love to pray for each other. And death does not separate us from this duty of love:

For I am convinced that neither death … nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Thus we can (and should) ask the saints in heaven (and especially Mary, who is closest to Christ) to pray for us, just as we ask our loved ones on earth to pray for us. Death does NOT separate us from this prayerful communion of love.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by char1963
First of all, I havent left the Catholic Church to become a Seventh Day Adventist. I went to the Catholic Church today, Saturday. I did not partake of communion, not because anybody told me not to, but because my own conscience told me not to. My issues are NOT about the Church’s moral teachings anymore. I was fine with the Catholic Church until I discovered what I am supposed to believe in regards to dogma. I have asked several Catholics if they believed that the virgin Mary stayed a virgin. All of them said no or that they had never thought about it.

Char, If your going to rely ONLY on what the bible[neither the best or worst of idea’s] tells you, be honest with yourself and at least accept EVERYTHING it teaches, not just a selective passage here and there.

2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”

[reply quote]
All this proves is that people don’t pay attention. We say that we believe she was “the virgin Mary” (ie: that she died in the state of virginity) every time we recite the Creed, which is at least every Sunday Mass, and every time we recite the Rosary, hopefully more than once a week.[end quore]

Now, I am not saying that she did or she didn’t. How is that an 81 year old woman , who was raised way more Catholic than I am didnt know she was supposed to believe that? I am not sure why I am bringing that up except to show that many Catholics are going to Catholic Churches and have no clue why. Jesus taught simple fishermen who had no knowledge of theology.

*For about 1300 years after the canon of the Bible had been set, the Catholic Church prohibited lay-folk from reading the bible, precisely for fear of and with the understanding, that it **NEVER *intended to be self -interpeted. Because we are NOT theologians, because we lack the training, lack the knowledge of how to go about translating the Words of God, the Church wisely forbade untrained and unskilled to read it.

***Was this the right decision? YES! Look at the Protestants who in in a short 350 years have gone from One to MANY, MANY THOUSANDS of denominations, ALL BASED ON A SINGLE SET OF TRUTH! SIMPLY INCREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDING HIS CATHOLIC CHURCH./*B]

**2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 **“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Cor. 4: 2 **“We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing"

1 Peter 4: 17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”

2 Peter 3: 14 –17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

**Col. 1:23 **“provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

Rom. 10: 17*** “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.” ***

[reply quote]
they may have started out that way, but we see just by reading the Bible (they wrote it, you’ll recall) that they certainly learned it as they came to know Jesus more and more, and as they listened to His teachings more and more. They didn’t remain ignorant of all these things. [end quote]

Why should I need someone with a degree in theology to understand the bible?

2 Peter 3: 14 –17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. **There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” **

[reply quote]
Why would you consult an uneducated person, instead, when you have the choice? [end quote]

VERY SOLID POINT!
Quote:

I asked God to show me the truth and he did. “Ask and it shall be given”. Where did He lead me? Back to the 10 commandments. Do I need a theologist (sp) to explain those to me?

*Char, PRIDE is throot of all sin. READ this post and honestly ask yourself how you can be absolutely, 100% certain this “finding” is from God

Keep going to church! AND TALK TO A PRIEST*!

Love and prayers, Pat**

 

[PJM]

=char1963;6151643]Ok, so I am taking a step back. I heard something in Church yesterday that disturbed me greatly. There was a prayer that said " Let us pray that Mary will lead the children" ( in their religon class) That didnt sound like asking Mary to pray *for * them. This is the dogma I am having a huge issue with. Why do we need the virgin Mary to intercede for us?

Char,

I’d like to send you a PM on this BUT your box is full. Please let m know when I can send it

Thanks,
Pat -PJM

 

[Vasian]

As one who has “come back” as it were, re-learning the catechism (an ongoing process) is helping me immensely. And, so does reading the historicity thereof.

Don’t sweat the small stuff, and don’t throw out the baby with the bath water:thumbsup:

 

[Vasian]

its the dogmas that I am having trouble with.

Then don’t look at any other organized religions either, as they are fraught with such things regardless of what they may claim.
And furthermore, many others are quite spiritually damaging.
I cannot state that about anything in the Catholic faith.
I know, as I was an active Jehovah’s Witness, and a Servant therein for many, many years.

 

[Della]

Char, if you don’t read the Catechism to find the answers you cannot say you have explored the teachings of the Church.

And no one can claim direct dogmatic inspiration from God whom God himself did not give that authority. Really, this is all about authority, not if some Catholics are confused/misinformed about their faith.

Christ gave the Apostles the authority to teach/preach in his name and that they would be led into all truth. He didn’t give that authority to you or to me. Ask yourself why there are so many Protestant denominations if all one has to do is read the Bible and know what God is asking us to believe/do.

You need to talk to your priest again and explain all this to him. Don’t just ask him one question and assume he meant to give you a complete answer. And if one priest gives you the wrong answer, go to one who will tell you the truth. Priests are people too who can be more afraid of offending people than in being truthful, either that or they themselves were poorly catechised–it happens sometimes.

No one priest has the authority to decide matters of faith and morals. They are laid out for us in the Catechism. Read it.

 

[Apryl]

I doubt Char has even read the Catechism, but rather is being influenced by others.

The Catechism is a great document… but for so many people, it is ‘foriegn’ and it doesn’t make sense to them.

I do not think that a person with a gazillion questions, most of which they believe are unimportant, would be influenced/corrected/whatever by the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

When I read the reply that, to me, said, ‘Good that you got out when you could… I couldn’t make heads or tails of it all myself’, was that rather than leave the church, why not find out what they are leaving.

Sort of makes me think about some one handing you a package. It’s a boring looking package, but a package. You just take it and set it in the garbage can. A day later, you then ask ‘what was in there?’

The reply is ‘Those old letters of your grandmother’s and her recipe for your favorite dinner’. Hmm… irreplaceable. But it’s lost. Gone for good. Because you didn’t even bother to open the package to see what was inside

Those who leave the church, not so much that they disagree with the church, but they BELIEVE they disagree with the church, because they ASSUME that the church means something (that it doesn’t!) remind me of that scenerio.

It was in their hands. Theirs for the taking. Something they wanted (if they would have known what was inside) and would later find themselves asking for.

You are NOT going to find that in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The CCC is more for, ‘I have this specific question. Is one plus one two, or eleven, and how do I understand the difference?’ For so many people, it’s way over their heads, and their hearts.

 

[Della]

The Catechism is a great document… but for so many people, it is ‘foriegn’ and it doesn’t make sense to them.

I do not think that a person with a gazillion questions, most of which they believe are unimportant, would be influenced/corrected/whatever by the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

When I read the reply that, to me, said, ‘Good that you got out when you could… I couldn’t make heads or tails of it all myself’, was that rather than leave the church, why not find out what they are leaving.

Sort of makes me think about some one handing you a package. It’s a boring looking package, but a package. You just take it and set it in the garbage can. A day later, you then ask ‘what was in there?’

The reply is ‘Those old letters of your grandmother’s and her recipe for your favorite dinner’. Hmm… irreplaceable. But it’s lost. Gone for good. Because you didn’t even bother to open the package to see what was inside

Those who leave the church, not so much that they disagree with the church, but they BELIEVE they disagree with the church, because they ASSUME that the church means something (that it doesn’t!) remind me of that scenerio.

It was in their hands. Theirs for the taking. Something they wanted (if they would have known what was inside) and would later find themselves asking for.

You are NOT going to find that in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The CCC is more for, ‘I have this specific question. Is one plus one two, or eleven, and how do I understand the difference?’ For so many people, it’s way over their heads, and their hearts.

The CCC is fully indexed. There are several online copies with search functions to find passages for any issue. And if the Catechism isn’t clear enough, it can discussed with a priest or other reliable Catholic, such as a solid deacon or nun. It’s a good resource written in English. It may not be as easy to read as the latest pot boiler, but it’s a start.

We’ve also recommended articles on this website to Char, which are written specifically for lay people. There are plenty of resources. No one has to flounder around wondering what the Church teaches and why.

 

[HelenRose]

I don’t think the CCC would be my first choice in learning about the the Catholic faith. It would be to much like trying to read a dictionary in order to learn a language.

I am grateful for the CCC when someone makes a statement about what they think the Catholic Church teaches and what She in reality teaches.

However, for those who really want to delve into what the Church is about the CCC is a great reference.

 

[Della]

I don’t think the CCC would be my first choice in learning about the the Catholic faith. It would be to much like trying to read a dictionary in order to learn a language.

I am grateful for the CCC when someone makes a statement about what they think the Catholic Church teaches and what She in reality teaches.

However, for those who really want to delve into what the Church is about the CCC is a great reference.

Arrrrggggghhhh! What is the matter with people these days? Has no one been taught how to read logically laid out essays any more? It’s not all that hard, as I wrote above. And as I wrote above, there are other resources. The CCC isn’t a bad place to begin, which is what I urged Char to do many posts ago.

 

[HelenRose]

I don’t think the CCC would be my first choice in learning about the the Catholic faith. It would be to much like trying to read a dictionary in order to learn a language.

I am grateful for the CCC when someone makes a statement about what they think the Catholic Church teaches and what She in reality teaches.

However, for those who really want to delve into what the Church is about the CCC is a great reference.

 

[HelenRose]

I am having some major problems with the Catholic faith. I thought my problem was with opposing gay marriage, women priests and priests not being allowed to get married. When I started looking into what I am supposed to believe , I realized I had much bigger issues. The Pope is infallable, Mary was a virgin the rest of her life, Purgatory? I have never believed any of that. I have always gone to Church to hear the word of God, not for any of the sacrements. If I keep going to the Catholic Church but dont go to communion, can I still say I am Catholic? I am certainly not in communion with the Church. I am sure some of you will say that I shouldnt be going to a Church I dont believe in, but where am I going to go?

There are those who leave the Church because they do not know what the Church teaches…

In reading Char’s first post I see that she does understand that the Church teaches that Mary was a virgin her entire life, she doesn’t accept Purgatory, nor the sacraments. She disagrees with the Church’s position on gay marriage, and no women priests, etc.

She is not acting out of misunderstanding what the Church teaches. She is rejecting those teachings.

I think that she must make this journey and I pray that in time she will be lead back to the Church and come to understand “why” the Church has these teachings in the first place and that she will come to accept the authority of the Church. But, this has to be her decision. This is called “free will”

 

[HelenRose]

Arrrrggggghhhh! What is the matter with people these days? Has no one been taught how to read logically laid out essays any more? It’s not all that hard, as I wrote above. And as I wrote above, there are other resources. The CCC isn’t a bad place to begin, which is what I urged Char to do many posts ago.

Della, I was agreeing with you.

 

[Apryl]

The CCC is fully indexed. There are several online copies with search functions to find passages for any issue. And if the Catechism isn’t clear enough, it can discussed with a priest or other reliable Catholic, such as a solid deacon or nun. It’s a good resource written in English. It may not be as easy to read as the latest pot boiler, but it’s a start.

We’ve also recommended articles on this website to Char, which are written specifically for lay people. There are plenty of resources. No one has to flounder around wondering what the Church teaches and why.

Ok… the CCC is a great document! So is the Dictionary. But I would never get someone, who said, ‘I don’t think I want to learn English’ to read a Dictionary!

Instead, I would get them to read some poetry, talk with people who spoke English well, maybe even ask them to write.

You mentioned articles and websites… we are on Catholic Answers Forum… where there are APOLOGISTS, people who can answer the questions in a non-robotic fashion.

Let me be clear: I am NOT suggesting that they NOT get a CCC… but if a person is apprehensive, or reluctant, or just in need to of being turned around, I (Translation: APRYL) would not recommend the CCC… instead, I would do the CAF or call in to the Catholic Answers radio show, or just try to formulate the real questions that they have, and then use the resources here, or that are available through this site, to get answers.

Let us not forget: one of the first things the OP said was they wanted to leave the church because of opposition to Gay Marriage… but they never said they wanted to explore WHY the church opposes Same Sex Unions as a marriage… how does the Church define ‘marriage’ so that two people of the same sex could not be so joined? Questions that a person would see and be able to answer, where a book would not do that.

I still say that I would not suggest to a Lukewarm person to start with the CCC… it’s too sterile and clinical.

JMO

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, so I am taking a step back. I heard something in Church yesterday that disturbed me greatly. There was a prayer that said " Let us pray that Mary will lead the children" ( in their religon class) That didnt sound like asking Mary to pray *for * them. This is the dogma I am having a huge issue with. Why do we need the virgin Mary to intercede for us?

Maybe their teacher’s name was Mary?

In any case, even if it is referring to Mother Mary, why limit her? She is the Queen of Heaven; she was assumed into Heaven body and soul, which means that she can do anything she wants; go anywhere she wants. Why do people want to bind her hands and feet, and gag her?

 

[Rence]

Isnt the most important thing that I believe Jesus died to save us from our sins? What does the rest matter? I am actually in line with the majority of the Church’s moral teachings , its the dogmas that I am having trouble with.

We’re opposite, you and I: I have NO problems with the dogma, but sometimes I have difficulty with some of the moral teachings. Just follow the advise of those here and don’t give up. Don’t lose faith: G-d is the only One who matters

 

[Della]

Ok… the CCC is a great document! So is the Dictionary. But I would never get someone, who said, ‘I don’t think I want to learn English’ to read a Dictionary!

Instead, I would get them to read some poetry, talk with people who spoke English well, maybe even ask them to write.

You mentioned articles and websites… we are on Catholic Answers Forum… where there are APOLOGISTS, people who can answer the questions in a non-robotic fashion.

Let me be clear: I am NOT suggesting that they NOT get a CCC… but if a person is apprehensive, or reluctant, or just in need to of being turned around, I (Translation: APRYL) would not recommend the CCC… instead, I would do the CAF or call in to the Catholic Answers radio show, or just try to formulate the real questions that they have, and then use the resources here, or that are available through this site, to get answers.

Let us not forget: one of the first things the OP said was they wanted to leave the church because of opposition to Gay Marriage… but they never said they wanted to explore WHY the church opposes Same Sex Unions as a marriage… how does the Church define ‘marriage’ so that two people of the same sex could not be so joined? Questions that a person would see and be able to answer, where a book would not do that.

I still say that I would not suggest to a Lukewarm person to start with the CCC… it’s too sterile and clinical.

JMO

I don’t think you are giving either Char or the CCC enough credit. It may be too sterile and clinical to YOU, but it certainly isn’t to everyone, certainly not me. I have had some of my best spiritual insights from reading it’s articles. I will admit having some background in understanding the Bible and theology helps, but even so, the CCC gives biblical references along with the Church Fathers and popes. It’s much more than a dictionary. I suggest you try researching it online to see what I mean.

 

[elts1956]

You’re only required to receive communion once a year and during the Easter time. You do need to go to Mass every Sunday though. I don’t see why you couldn’t call yourself a Catholic if you do that. One still obtains many graces from Mass alone and you might want to attend outside Sundays as well. Or just visit Church and pray. Or just pray alone or with others. You sound solid to me.

Question: Do you think if one does not believe in the Sacraments, or honor them, one will still receive Grace? What would be the point of just going through the actions. Belief goes both ways, one has to give a little in order to get a lot.

 

[PJM]

=Della;6153354]The CCC is fully indexed. There are several online copies with search functions to find passages for any issue. And if the Catechism isn’t clear enough, it can discussed with a priest or other reliable Catholic, such as a solid deacon or nun. It’s a good resource written in English. It may not be as easy to read as the latest pot boiler, but it’s a start.

We’ve also recommended articles on this website to Char, which are written specifically for lay people. There are plenty of resources. No one has to flounder around wondering what the Church teaches and why.

As one who has read both the “92” and “94” Catechesim cover to cover mutiple times, I would agree hat it is NOT the document that tose strugling to understand our believes ough to try to read.

In fact, it was written as a resouce for clerics to better understand and teach of specific topics.

However there is now a ***Compendium to the CCC [2006] *** about 1/4 the size and in a very friendly Q & A format that is excellent, and would be a tool to suggest.

The real issues it seems to me is for one to overcome ones pride and preconceived notions of personal authority to hold opinions not in conformity with the Church, without even having researched them, as to what we actually hold as true and on what basis do we hold these truths. Truth is NOT arbritary; it is alwayus based on FACT.

In other words deying, without really understanding why they are denying these positions, other than it “doesen’t feel right” to me, or it “makes my life too complcated” or simply, and most often, “I Just don’t want to accept this or that.”

God gives us only ONE life to get it right It sems to me prudent, to at least invest and investigate what positions we choose to hold, BEFORE denying them

God will judge us on what He has permitted us, OPPORTUNITY to know, as being fully equal to what we choose to “know”

Love and prayers,

Pat