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Can Islam and Christianity coexist? Vatican expert hopeful, but wary
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Tonks40
Guest
This part of the article was very interesting:
I wonder why that is???
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Mike_D30
Guest
Telling it like it is, is never a crime. Everyone hope Islam and Christianity can co-exist, however the matter is very complicated and the future not promising. In 30 years Christian/Islmaic relations has deteriorated to near hatred for Christians in Muslim lands, and true disdain and suspicion towards Muslims in Christian lands. It’s scary to me it feels like both sides are just waiting for the bough to break.
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JOHNYJ
Guest
As long as Islam is not the prefered or state religion there is a chance.
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Mike_D30
Guest
Telling it like it is, is never a crime. Everyone hopes Islam and Christianity can co-exist, however the matter is very complicated and the future is not promising. In 30 years Christian/Islamic relations have deteriorated to near hatred for Christians in Muslim lands, and true disdain and suspicion towards Muslims in Christian lands. It’s scary to me, it feels like both sides are just waiting for the bough to break.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
The lamb will lie down with the lion but the lamb will get no sleep.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
Christianity in general is more that willing to coexist with Muslims but there dosnt seem to be the same feelings on the Muslim side for the Christians. All one has to see is the persecution of Egyptian Copts, Lebonese Christians, Palestinian Christians, Sudanese Christians, etc. who only want is to be left alone to live as close to normal a life free from intimidation. But, the Muslims are not content to leave well enough alone. They feel compelled by whatever reasons to impress thier beliefs or if they cant try to make life difficult for those around them who are not of their faith.
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inJESUS
Guest
If muslims agree to issue a universal fatwa to all countries saying :
1- killing non-moslems is banned.
2- applying sharia on non-muslims is banned
3-paying jizya is banned
4-Christians can preach and build churches
If this happens, then sure; but i guess this will happen when the fish learns to fly.
the quran calls us blasphemers, unjust, perverted who will burn in hell…great attitude towards us right? do you think those who live by the quran will love/respect us when his book is full of hatred for us?
1- killing non-moslems is banned.
2- applying sharia on non-muslims is banned
3-paying jizya is banned
4-Christians can preach and build churches
If this happens, then sure; but i guess this will happen when the fish learns to fly.
the quran calls us blasphemers, unjust, perverted who will burn in hell…great attitude towards us right? do you think those who live by the quran will love/respect us when his book is full of hatred for us?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
To think they can co-exist is naive at best:
Taqiyya and kitman: The role of Deception in Islamic terrorismTradecraft. Persona. Deception. Disinformation. Cover: Western operational terms and techniques. But, Islamic terrorists have their own terms: ***taqiyya ***(pronounced tark-e-ya): precautionary dissimulation or deception and keeping one’s convictions secret and a synonymous term, kitman: mental reservation and dissimulation or concealment of malevolent intentions…
Taqiyya and* kitman* or ‘holy hypocrisy’ has been diffused throughout Arabic culture for over fourteen hundred years since it was developed by Shiites as a means of defence and concealment of beliefs against Sunni unbelievers. As the Prophet said:* 'he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives.*’
The skilful use of taqiyya and kitman was often a matter of life and death against enemies; it is also a matter of life and death to many contemporary Islamic terrorists. As so often in the history of Islam, a theological doctrine became operational.
During the Spanish inquisition, Sunni Moriscos attended mass and returned home to wash their hands of the ‘holy water’. In operational terms, taqiyya and kitman allowed the ‘mujahadeen ’ to assume whatever identity was necessary to fulfill their mission; they had doctrinal and theological and later jurisprudential sanction to pretend to be Jews or Christians to gain access to Christian and Jewish targets**: ***‘the mujahadeen can take the shape of the enemy’. *
Taqiyya is common to both Shiite and Sunni Muslim discourse and has significant implications for understanding Islamic fundamentalism and terrorist operations. The theory and practice of counter terrorism would be counter productive, indeed pointless, and even harmful, without reference to taqiyya and* kitman* and the crucial role of deception ranging from Islamic jurisprudence to Al Qaeda training manuals, which carry detailed instructions on the use of deception by terrorists in Western target countries.
According to Christian ethics lying is a sin; In Islamic jurisprudence and theology, the use of taqiyya against the unbelievers is regarded as a virtue and a religious duty…
[Remainder of article at link]Catholics are allowed to use mental reservations; but not to lie, ever. The distinction can be easier to draw in theory than in practice. Dissimulation, which is something different again, is never permissible.
Taqiyya and kitman: The role of Deception in Islamic terrorism ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Muslim hatred for Christians in Muslim lands is a fact already:
"Jihadists threaten to kill Coptic PopeIn revenge for the video shown in the Coptic church. Apparently a stabbed nun and three deaths aren’t enough. “Muslim radicals threaten to kill Pope Shenouda III,” from the FreeCopts blogspot, with thanks to Susan:
EL FAGR Egyptian newspaper published threats made by Muslims radicals against the Pope of Alexandria. According to the newspaper, Muslim radicals publicly announced their threats through small mosques in the outskirts of the city of Alexandria and regarded the bloodshed of H.H. Pope Shenouda III as Halal (permissible) in revenge for what they considered an insult to Islam’s prophet…
On the other hand, the “Mother of All Radicals” or the so called “Muslim Brotherhood” group has been giving out fliers inciting the Muslims to revenge the honor of their prophet.
You can see the flyer and the newspaper article at the Free Copts site."
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More items & comment at: jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008692.php
The item was posted on 24 October 2005
The video in question was shown on the 22nd:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008652.php
"…An earlier report from Al-Jazeera gives more details that reinforce this point:The production features a poor Christian university student who converts to Islam when a group of Muslim men promise him much-needed money. When he becomes disenchanted with his decision, the men threaten him with physical violence to prevent him from returning to his original faith.
So perhaps the Egyptian Muslims are offended that the student originally converted only for money, and that he was threatened by the Muslims when he wanted to return to Christianity. But this, of course, is like CAIR being offended by a book that depicts Muhammad as a warrior: both are taking offense at the truth…"
What is the matter with these people 
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pro_universal
Guest
Something we will do well to remember is that the radicalism and persecution in the middle east is a relatively recent phenomenon, especially compared to the length of time that Muslims have lived in those regions. The problem began with the last days of the Ottomans, ie, post WWI, and became critical after the establishment of Israel in 1948.
Pretending that the radicals who now struggle to oppress others in the middle east (they oppress the muslims as much as they oppress everyone else) only hampers our ability to find a peaceful, lasting solution to the problems there.
It’s not all about religion, and never has been. One thing you can be certain of with any claim about a historical event (the inquisitions or the Spanish conquests, for example) is that if the claim is “it was just for religion!”, it is almost certainly wrong.
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inJESUS
Guest
Fine, can we agree now that to have peace, muslims must reform themselves?
Do you think the fatwa am dreaming of is possible?
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pro_universal
Guest
It’s not just reform…it’s stopping the cult like movements of terrorism from gaining ground. The problem is that, like most former colonial states, governments in this part of the world are not legitimate enough to effectively do this.
The fatwa of peace is out there from every single major religious school in Islam. On that there is no question. Try this: find a sect of Islam that has any substantial following, which has issued a fatwa permitting the killing of innocents and authorizing attacking other religions…if you can do that, I’d like to see it.
Even in very radical countries, the religious law on Islam and other faiths is clear. Iran, for example, has specifically written religious freedom into its constitution…most people respond with disbelief when I tell them this, so I will post a link:
iranologyfo.com/low-e02.htm
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inJESUS
Guest
what meant by reform is this : muslims should be taught that the violence in quran does not apply now…for example killing until the religion is for allah, fight those who do not believe in allah, taking jizya ecc
i can give you many quotations from muslims throughout the world who say jihad must continue until islam dominates the world…whose fault is it?
In my post, i raised many points : do you think it is possible for such a comprehensive fatwa to exist? not only killing, but the other points i raised?
does it exclude killing apostates in your opinion? thats what i understand by religious freedom…
iranologyfo.com/low-e02.htm
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pro_universal
Guest
They have already been taught that for centuries. Look at what the religious authorities in Islam have to say about the scriptures you’ve cited…there is virtually no dispute (except for followers of sects like the Wahhabi) as to their requiring respect for other religions, and prohibiting the killing of noncombatants and any killing outside of declared wars. No major Muslim group has ever interpreted the Koran to command anything other than that. I think perhaps your difficulty is that you are grabbing pieces of the Koran and making them mean what you want them to mean…that’s simply not what most Muslims see in the book, though.
Every single one of the quotes you post will be from a radical group, guaranteed. If you can find someone who represents a large group in Islam, please post the fatwa that says this and I’ll be happy to see it.
In the meantime, yes, such a fatwa does exist. I already posted it three times on this forum, and I hope you will read it again. livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html
You clearly did not read that fatwa when I posted it before. To review: it is by a Shafi’i Imam, it covers the Maliki, Hanbali, and Hanafi views of killing, and it categorically and clearly prohibits all killing outside of warfare and any killing of noncombatants, even in war. You will find links and citations to justify every point it makes based on the Muslim teachings on the subject.
That’s an area I haven’t researched as much, but I’ll look to see what the governing opinions are. In the meantime, please read the above fatwa, as it does everything that you are claiming has never been done.
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inJESUS
Guest
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inJESUS
Guest
yes i told you that i read half of the fatwa and i’ll read the rest later and i told you that is good…still there are the other questions i raised…if they are covered in the fatwa please notify me…
As for killing apostates, i’d like to hear what you have to say after fiding a fatwa.
And can you provide me with a fatwa stating clearly what is a threat according to islam?
caricature of mohammad is a threat?
not paying jizya is a threat?
preaching?
not accepting to live under sharia?
not chaging a secular constitution to fit muslims in West for example?
just what exactly do muslims consider a threat.
As for killing apostates, i’d like to hear what you have to say after fiding a fatwa.
And can you provide me with a fatwa stating clearly what is a threat according to islam?
caricature of mohammad is a threat?
not paying jizya is a threat?
preaching?
not accepting to live under sharia?
not chaging a secular constitution to fit muslims in West for example?
just what exactly do muslims consider a threat.
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pro_universal
Guest
Muslims do understand this. That’s my point. There are no Islamic scholars of any traditional or large school of Islam that teach anything opposed to what you will find in the fatwa I cited.
As for muslims who do commit violence, they are just like the “christians” in Serbia, South America, and America who don’t really care about religion and commit crimes. Crime is crime, and people use all sorts of excuses to justify it…muslims are human just like the rest of us, that as all that can be logically derived from the problem of crime in the muslim world.
Anywhere where people have been colonized, where there is poverty, and oppression, you will find violence…regardless of the dominant religion there. The problems of violence and instability in the middle east are not tough to understand if you take a look at the political and social history…any people of any religion subjected to those problems will face these difficulties.
Jizya has not been customary everywhere…it wasn’t the norm in India, for example, when muslims ruled there. As for the right to preach without fear, the answer is to find a government that is legitimate and respected and provides for the people…when muslims are secure, they will not feel as much invaded by preaching, is my view of the subject. So if you want to spread the message, start by helping muslims to rebuild their world.
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pro_universal
Guest
Here is a good article for learning about the islamic tradition regarding government:
meforum.org/article/14
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Pug
Guest
Tonks40, I couldn’t tell if you were saying this in regard to the quote about there being few published books. The illiteracy rates in Arab countries, at least, is substantially higher than around here. That could countribute a lot.I wonder why that is???
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