Can Islam and Christianity coexist? Vatican expert hopeful, but wary

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Pug:

Tonks40, I couldn’t tell if you were saying this in regard to the quote about there being few published books. The illiteracy rates in Arab countries, at least, is substantially higher than around here. That could countribute a lot.

However, what sort of illiteracy is meant?​

1. Complete inability to make sense of a simple sentence in written form such as “The Cat Sat On the Mat” ?
2. Functional illiteracy, which leaves people at a disadvantage in society, so that they cannot shine in school or be employed except as manual workers or drudges ?
3. Semi-literacy, which leaves people unable to spell, or construct a sentence without showing that they are not readily able to do so ? There are several degress of this alone.

Illiteracy is a problem in cultures or for activity in which literacy is required - the written text of the Koran as authorised by the Caliph Omar (IIRC) was gathered in part from “the breasts of men”, that is, from the memories of the remembrancers who had committed it to memory. There was a time when men had to be able to memorise the Psalms if they were to be ordained to the diaconate. (It would be no bad thing if Christians knew the Bible or large parts of it by heart - this is where singing comes into its own, for singing fixes words more firmly in the memory; one of the great benefits of sound files of Christian texts, is that they are a help to fixing the words in the memory.) ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

unesco.org/webworld/mdm/1997/images/ouzbekistan/1g.gif unesco.org/webworld/mdm/1997/eng/uzbekistan/uzbekistanom.html

 

[Pug]

## However, what sort of illiteracy is meant?

Unknown. Here is a quote from the same site that I referenced for the statistics.

For some countries, literacy is measured by asking a simple question like “Are you literate or not?” or ‘Can you read and write with understanding?’ while for other countries, a more comprehensive question is asked or a literacy assessment test is administered.

Probably literacy as that particular country defines it is meant, since it would be their own govenernment gathering the statistics.

To sustain an insanely high rate of books being published, probably people would need to be thoroughly comfortable reading. No one reads for recreation if it is a chore.

I agree that memorization has value.

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Christianity and Islam can not coexist. Islam is a evil political agenda hell bent on the take over of the world. It has been spread by the sword and only christian arms has keep the horde from keeping europe. Lets not forget the moslem armies conquered the holy land, north africa, spain, made roads in to france, sacked rome and drug the body of St. Peter himself into the streets, the balkans and seiged Vienna twice.

These people are one not to be negotiated with and not to be trusted. Either in the physically realm the armies of Christendom will again liberate her most holy lands or by the Armies of heaven will Christ come back to remove all obstacles to his kingdom on earth. There should be and can not be ecumenicalism or a coexistence with a pagan political agenda thats main ideal is the domination of the world.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

A further reason Islam and Christianity cannot co-exist:

A Conspiracy Against The People

16th February 2006

****​

Curioser and Curioser, as Alice was wont to say. Or worse and worse as I have nothing else to say. Look at this [report (Blogger) on alphabetcity:

*While Muslim mobs - incited by Muslim regimes and radical Islamists competing for popular approval - are rioting over the *[Jyllands-Posten cartoons (Blogger), there is a move afoot by the [Organization of the Islamic Conference (http://www.oic-oci.org/), an inter-governmental organization with a permanent delegation to the United Nations, to use the UN and the EU to establish international laws against blasphemy. Such legislation would necessarily limit the freedoms of speech and press in Western nations.
**
On Tuesday, ambassadors and permanent representatives from the 57 Islamic countries that comprise the OIC General Secretariat met in Jeddah and unanimously approved [five points (http://www.oic-oci.org/press/english/2006/February 2006/ambass-meeting.htm) that form a “proactive OIC strategy [that would] project the true image of Islam and Muslims [to] the West” and “increase cooperation with the international institutions [EU, UN] with a view to ensuring the adoption of political, legal and cultural-social frameworks in combating defamation and stereotyping of Muslims and their religion.”
**

• the adoption by the EU of necessary legislative measures through the European Parliament against Islamophobia;
• making joint efforts by the EU and the OIC to adopt UN Resolution on the lines of existing UN Resolution 60/150 (Combating defamation of religions) which should prohibit defamation of all Prophets and faiths;
• *the adoption of a code of ethics for the European media; *
• the adoption of an International Communication Media Order by the United Nations which should cover a definition of freedom of speech in case of religious symbols;
• the inclusion of an operative paragraph prohibiting blasphemy, defamation of religions and incitement to hatred in the text of Human Rights Council resolution presently being negotiated.

[**Read the entire damn thing ** (Blogger)- and find out what awaits you if you give up one inch of ground over the Danish cartoon issue.

=======

A law against blasphemy ? Sounds wonderful - there is one minor snag: Islam includes faith in the Blessed Trinity, in Christ Crucified, in the Divine Maternity of Mary, in the Holy Spirit, and a lot more, that all Christians agree on, as blasphemy. Ian Paisley and the Holy Father (to name but two) would be in as much danger as the secularists, athiests, humanists, and any other rejecters of God or gods.

As for “the true image of Islam” - I thought they rejected images Maybe this, from Pakistan, is what is meant:

http://www.gardjola.org/images/God_Bless_Hitler_Pakistan.jpg

[continue…]

 

[pro_universal]

Read the entire damn thing - and find out what awaits you if you give up one inch of ground over the Danish cartoon issue.

These articles and websites are the same kind of trash that the Nazis used to justify their attacks on Jews. Now the same methods are being deployed against Muslims.

Let’s stop this insanity and remember who we are before it goes any further. I refer you to Lumen Gentium and CCC 841 if you think this kind of propaganda is justified.

 

[StMarkEofE]

When cows learn how to fly!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

[continued and ended]

Bullies must be resisted - not placated:

• http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,1330571,00.html

Unacceptable

18th February 2006

“The E.U.’s CFSP High Representative Javier Solana is touring Muslim countries desperately trying to stay in their good books by prostrating himself in a pitiable fashion and [saying (http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060214&hn=29765) things such as *“We never had the intention of harming. Please feel assured that we will do our best to preclude the cartoon crisis from re-occurring, because we need each other.” *And how does Solana propose to prevent a re-occurrence? Perhaps by muzzling the free press in Europe as is done in totalitarian countries?..”

For that report, that picture, and others, go to: http://www.gardjola.org/#Malfeasance

 

[StMarkEofE]

## However, what sort of illiteracy is meant?

1. Complete inability to make sense of a simple sentence in written form such as “The Cat Sat On the Mat” ?
2. Functional illiteracy, which leaves people at a disadvantage in society, so that they cannot shine in school or be employed except as manual workers or drudges ?
3. Semi-literacy, which leaves people unable to spell, or construct a sentence without showing that they are not readily able to do so ? There are several degress of this alone.

Illiteracy is a problem in cultures or for activity in which literacy is required - the written text of the Koran as authorised by the Caliph Omar (IIRC) was gathered in part from “the breasts of men”, that is, from the memories of the remembrancers who had committed it to memory. There was a time when men had to be able to memorise the Psalms if they were to be ordained to the diaconate. (It would be no bad thing if Christians knew the Bible or large parts of it by heart - this is where singing comes into its own, for singing fixes words more firmly in the memory; one of the great benefits of sound files of Christian texts, is that they are a help to fixing the words in the memory.) ##

Do Muslim towns have librarys? Do Muslims have novelists? Do Muslims have fiction writers? Do Muslims have secular book stores?

 

[StMarkEofE]

Muslims will not be known by what they say but by what they do.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

pro_universal:

These articles and websites are the same kind of trash that the Nazis used to justify their attacks on Jews. Now the same methods are being deployed against Muslims.

Let’s stop this insanity and remember who we are before it goes any further. I refer you to Lumen Gentium and CCC 841 if you think this kind of propaganda is justified.

It is MUSLIMS who broadcast the Blood Libel,​

by courtesy of SyrianTV, and see fit to accuse Jews of making their matzos with Christian blood.

It is MUSLIMS who preach hatred of Jews and Christians in mosques

It is MUSLIMS who produce cartoons of Ariel Sharon chopping up babies with a swastika-shaped axe

It is MUSLIMS who thank God for Hitler, while blaming Hitler for not going far enough

It is MUSLIMS who have been caught out in a lie to the Danish media

It is MUSLIMS who are members of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood

It is MUSLIMS whose law denies Christians freedom to rebuild churches

And so on.

Don’t blame the messenger for showing Muslims as they are - blame them for their lies, plotting, violence, and homicidal ways.

I am sorry the facts of modern life don’t fit the notion that Islam is peaceful - but that is the fault of Muslims and of no one else.

All they have to do is stop imposing Sharia law by the back door, persecuting Christians (for instance), preaching the extermination of the Jews, rioting because someone showed a video they did not like, killing priests, and similar unlovely activities.

I for one have no intention of being Islamised just because politicians - or clergy - haven’t the guts or gumption to stand up to these thugs. Islam is anti-Christian - slavery, dhimmi status, or death, are too high a price to pay for rthe delusions of others. Europe paid dearly - it is paying still - for the blindness of its rulers to the murderousness of Hitlerism in the 1930s; and that same blindness is being shown, all over again, by the same classes of people, to the same murderous and deceitful enemy. Don’t flatter yourself that distance will save the USA from this evil. It didn’t, and it won’t.

Nothing in the CCC can change that - besides, the document quoted in CCC 841 was written when it was easier for the West and for Christians in the West to be blind and deaf to the dangers of Islam. Changes in technology and in Islam, & in Near Eastern politics, and in the world generally, have changed the context in which that quotation has to be understood: it is easy to be pally with a religion that is not knocking hard at one’s door, but is thousands of miles away. That is no longer the case.

To adapt your own words slightly:

If this insanity is not stopped, we will no longer be free to remember who we are. ##

 

[pro_universal]

Nothing in the CCC can change that - besides, the document quoted in CCC 841 was written when it was easier for the West and for Christians in the West to be blind and deaf to the dangers of Islam. Changes in technology and in Islam, & in Near Eastern politics, and in the world generally, have changed the context in which that quotation has to be understood: it is easy to be pally with a religion that is not knocking hard at one’s door, but is thousands of miles away. That is no longer the case.

Sorry, but I never believed that the fact that following a teaching of the Church is no longer “easy” means that you don’t have to do it.

You accuse muslims of blood libelling Jews. Your propaganda is exactly the same, it just uses the word “muslim” instead of “jew”. You have no moral grounds for attacking anyone when you post these rants, because you are encouraging exactly the same kind of intolerance.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

pro_universal:

Sorry, but I never believed that the fact that following a teaching of the Church is no longer “easy” means that you don’t have to do it.

Easy to say - is one to respect a religion which has a long record of slaying and otherwise oppressing Christians: which is doing it now ? If that was not happening when the document quoted in CCC 841 was written - Nostra Aetate, IIRC - 40 years ago, does that meant it does not happen now ? Or are we to be like children, not in faith, but in playing a game of “let’s pretend” that costs olthers their liberty and lives ? That is not docility to Church teaching - that is grossly irresponsible behaviour; which is not very Christian. I prefer my way of being a “bad Catholic” to yours, TY v. much.​

The Church does not exist in a timeless vacuum - or should we all behave as though we did ?

There is a vast practical difference between different types of teaching, for some are time-bound, in different ways - & some are not. Therefore, different teachings make different practical demands; they didn’t float down from the highest heaven bound up with seven seals which the Pope alone can open.

Ecumenical dialogue is fine in principle - but not when the place chosen for it is on fire. When that happens, the ecumenists must stop chatting, and do something about putting out the fire - even if their time-table does not allow for a fire. So it is here. The needs of human beings in danger of oppression or enslavement are more important than the general dispositions of the Church; ther will be time enough for those once the trouble arising is past. Not before.

I’m allowing for CCC 841 and for the human beings who would be endangered by a pedestrian observance of it - not sacrificing them to the requirement of a teaching mistreated as a timeless Platonic Idea. I think my approach is rather more Catholic and Christian; because more discerning.

There is not very much room for Christians in some countries to “esteem the Muslims”, CCC 841 notwithstanding - not when they are being persecuted. Love is not a refusal to look facts in the face; it’s the very reverse. of this; it is supremely realistic. There is not much esteem for Christians coming from Muslims: *dhimmi *status, yes; hatred, yes - but not esteem. ##

You accuse muslims of blood libelling Jews.

They do - is that my fault ?​

A few links of many:

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP21201

*In his short daily column in the Egyptian government daily *Al-Akhbar, entitled “Half a Word,” columnist Ahmad Ragab reiterates his thanks to Hitler. MEMRI first reported this sentiment in Special Dispatch No. 208, ‘Thanks to Hitler,’ April 20, 2001. Now, in a defiant manner, Al-Akhbar publishes:

“[Insistently] for the second time, thanks to Hitler, of blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him for his revenge on them was not enough.”[1]

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP35402

“For this holiday = Purim], the victim must be a mature adolescent who is, of course, a non-Jew – that is, a Christian or a Muslim. His blood is taken and dried into granules. The cleric blends these granules into the pastry dough; they can also be saved for the next holiday. In contrast, for the Passover slaughtering, about which I intend to write one of these days, the blood of Christian and Muslim children under the age of 10 must be used, and the cleric can mix the blood [into the dough] before or after dehydration.” [the items in blue are my addition]

[continue…]

 

[pro_universal]

There is not very much room for Christians in some countries to “esteem the Muslims”, CCC 841 notwithstanding - not when they are being persecuted. Love is not a refusal to look facts in the face; it’s the very reverse. of this; it is supremely realistic. There is not much esteem for Christians coming from Muslims: dhimmi status, yes; hatred, yes - but not esteem. ##

First of all, 841 comes from Lumen Gentium, written in 1964. At the very least, you must admit that either the Church does not know of what it speaks, or that up to 1964, it considered Islam to be a religion worthy of dialogue and without this “long history” of persecution and evil.

As for the blood libel…where do you think these modern libellants in the muslim world got those stories? Hint: they were originally written in European languages…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

[continued]That item is foul - but you wanted evidence.

Why would I want to libel Muslims ? You aren’t morally entitled to counter-accuse me, unless you can suggest a tolerably plausible motive for my committing what is by any remotely Christian ethical standards an extremely serious sin.

There is this too:

Special Dispatch Series - No. 1053 - Antisemitism Documentation Project, December 22, 2005

---

Iranian TV Blood Libel: Jewish Rabbis Killed Hundreds of European Children to use Their Blood for Passover Holiday & Discussion on Holocaust Denial

For a video of the Blood Libel, go to this video page: http://memri.org/video/index.html - it is about halfway down. It lasts just under four minutes, and has English subtitles.

Here is a transcript of it : http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000361.php
Judge for yourself.

If you think my sources are making it up, it is for you to suggest a plausible reason why - and the same applies to all the other things I’ve posted. They need to be explained, accounted for - and plausibly. ##

Your propaganda is exactly the same, it just uses the word “muslim” instead of “jew”. You have no moral grounds for attacking anyone when you post these rants, because you are encouraging exactly the same kind of intolerance.

I have very good moral grounds for post them. I think constantly of exactly that while writing, because lying, and even stating as fact what one does not know for sure, so ffar as one is able to know it for sure, are both grossly immoral. I post them because they are facts, because they show what is considered acceptable behavour among more than a handful of Muslims, because I don’t appreciate the murder of Christians or anyone else. And most of all, because they are of public interest.​

 

[pro_universal]

Why would I want to libel Muslims ? You aren’t morally entitled to counter-accuse me, unless you can suggest a tolerably plausible motive for my committing what is by any remotely Christian ethical standards an extremely serious sin.

Sure I can. It is clear from your posts that you have bought what the propaganda machines online have said about muslims, and therefore you consider them to be a real threat. I do not doubt for a second that most people in Germany honestly believed that Jews were a threat to their culture and lives as well. I simply believe that these fears happen when people start listening to propaganda instead of actually learning something about the supposed new threat to world peace and western culture. (Every generation has such a threat, conveniently, and after every generation, it seems all the hype turns out to be wrong…)

If you think my sources are making it up, it is for you to suggest a plausible reason why - and the same applies to all the other things I’ve posted. They need to be explained, accounted for - and plausibly. ##

Same as above. Why did the Nazis make up all those lies about Jews? Why did whites claim that blacks were animals? Why did protestants claim that Catholics were the spawn of satan?

Answer: ignorance, fear, and politics feeding into each other. That’s the most plausible explanation for hatred you will find anywhere.

I have very good moral grounds for post them.

No, you do not. The websites you posted get their information wrong all the time (Jihadwatch especially-that one is utter trash), and they ignore the political contexts surrounding these events. To reduce all the problems in the middle east to religion is ridiculous on its face, but if you spend enough time reading propaganda, I could see how you’d forget that there are in fact other things besides praying and preaching going on in these parts of the world. That is what has happened to you, and I pray that you’ll have the guidance to expand your vision.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

pro_universal:

First of all, 841 comes from Lumen Gentium, written in 1964. At the very least, you must admit that either the Church does not know of what it speaks, or that up to 1964, it considered Islam to be a religion worthy of dialogue and without this “long history” of persecution and evil.

Don’t blame me for the nescience or ignorance - take your pick - of the Council Fathers. If they were wrong, they were wrong. I could hardly have been clearer than I was, in allowing for that second possibility. Islam is not going to stop having a history of persecution just to suit the one’s wishful thinking. Or was the Church wrong to beatify the 800 Martyrs of Otranto, killed in 1480/1 by Muslim forces after the siege of Otranto (impaled, except for the bishop: he was sawn in half) ?​

As for the blood libel…where do you think these modern libellants in the muslim world got those stories? Hint: they were originally written in European languages…

So why do Muslims propagate them ? I can prove what I say - can you ? ##

 

[pro_universal]

If they were wrong, they were wrong. I could hardly have been clearer than I was, in allowing for that second possibility.

LG is an encyclical by the Pope himself. I highly recommend reading it for yourself before you judge the point at issue.

Islam is not going to stop having a history of persecution just to suit the one’s wishful thinking.

Islam’s history of problems is no worse than our own. That is the point, that it is hypocritcal to start bashing the religion today as if these people are guilty of the sins of some of their fathers. If it is possible to ascribe guilt that way, all Christians would by the same logic be guilty of a horrible tradition of racism, murdering Jews, and colonial expansion. Our people were willing participants in all of those events. Does that mean that Christianity is a threat to world peace?

So why do Muslims propagate them ? I can prove what I say - can you ? ##

They do this because there is a political interest at stake, namely, possession of territory in Israel. Given the total blackout in western media to Israeli attacks on Palestinians and to Israeli history, we have the same problem with bias and junk reporting.

Your probblem, Gottle, is that you are reading only sites like Jihadwatch and others that do not give any context whatsoever besides religion for the problems. Religion does not exist in a vacuum, and where there is violence, there are politics…that’s a concept you should easily grasp from your own knowledge of the history of the Church. The murder of millions of Jews, heretical christians, muslims, and witches combined in the name of our Church doesn’t make the Church evil…especially when you consider that all of these events had political contexts that had nothing to do with religious teaching.

Why is it so hard for you to see the same thing going on in the muslim world?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

pro_universal:

Sure I can. It is clear from your posts that you have bought what the propaganda machines online have said about muslims,

I suppose I could have imagined that Muslims were drawing Jews as Nazis, or as axe-wielding child-killers, or as demons. Maybe I need some new glasses, so that I can stop thinking there are cartoons hinting that Muslims hate and defame Jews. Maybe the BBC invented all those placards calling for the extermination of others. Maybe the Shoah-deniers in the Muslim world are correct, and those horrid Jews made the whole thing up. Maybe the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem never webt to Berlin, let alone consulted with Hitler on how to exterminate the Jews ##

and therefore you consider them to be a real threat. I do not doubt for a second that most people in Germany honestly believed that Jews were a threat to their culture and lives as well.

That proves all such fears were unfounded ? I suppose it’s possible that those afraid of Islam in the 16th century were hallucinating when the Muslim advance into Europe after 1453 took place - or rather, didn’t.​

I simply believe that these fears happen when people start listening to propaganda instead of actually learning something about the supposed new threat to world peace and western culture. (Every generation has such a threat, conveniently, and after every generation, it seems all the hype turns out to be wrong…)

above. Why did the Nazis make up all those lies about Jews? Why did whites claim that blacks were animals? Why did protestants claim that Catholics were the spawn of satan?

Answer: ignorance, fear, and politics feeding into each other. That’s the most plausible explanation for hatred you will find anywhere.

So show that it applies here​

No, you do not. The websites you posted get their information wrong all the time (Jihadwatch especially-that one is utter trash),

Please show in what respects they are wrong in these cases in particular.​

We’ve established, because you say so, and we must defer to your unsupported assertion, that jihadwatch can’t be trusted with one item, a link, because it is in some unspecified way “rubbish” - that invalidates all it says, does it ? In that case, let’s not be Catholic, because the CC gave the blood libel a lot of currency. Are we to junk the reliability of the CC on matters not relating to faith, as we do jihadwatch ? If not - why not ?

None of this invalidates anything else anywhere else in the site or in my posts. ##

and they ignore the political contexts surrounding these events. To reduce all the problems in the middle east to religion is ridiculous on its face,

Please quote a post, blogger, or any other internet resource I have used, where this done. Either that - or please withdraw what you have said.​

Even if I had said that, it is no evidence that what is said about Muslims is false. Please show that what was said of them, is false. It would be nice if it were - but their behaviour is in accord with what is said. ##

but if you spend enough time reading propaganda, I could see how you’d forget that there are in fact other things besides praying and preaching going on in these parts of the world.

What of it ? There are other things than the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but that is no reason to turn churches into museums. Things have their place and time, and the West in 2005 is assuredly the time and place to discuss the dangers of Islam.​

That is what has happened to you, and I pray that you’ll have the guidance to expand your vision.

So prove these particular instances of alleged untruths, are untrue.​

You’re entitled to your opinion, as we all are - but are you entitled to duck explaining Muslim utterances ? Not if you take the trouble to reject someone else’s explanation for them, I think.

Please prove - no, let’s make it easier for you - please show good reason how these are not examples of Muslim hatred of those for whom the hatred is expressed. All you have done is indulge in unspecific complaints about propaganda and libel - why not be specific for a change ? “You’re wrong” is what all this boils down to. Maybe; but why should anyone think that you, OTOH, are right in your “explanations” ? They explain nothing, because they do not descend to detail. Airy statements about nothing much in particular are not good enough - and those are all you’ve given.
##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

pro_universal:

LG is an encyclical by the Pope himself. I highly recommend reading it for yourself before you judge the point at issue.

Islam’s history of problems is no worse than our own. That is the point, that it is hypocritcal to start bashing the religion today as if these people are guilty of the sins of some of their fathers. If it is possible to ascribe guilt that way, all Christians would by the same logic be guilty of a horrible tradition of racism, murdering Jews, and colonial expansion. Our people were willing participants in all of those events. Does that mean that Christianity is a threat to world peace?

They do this because there is a political interest at stake, namely, possession of territory in Israel. Given the total blackout in western media to Israeli attacks on Palestinians and to Israeli history, we have the same problem with bias and junk reporting.

Your probblem, Gottle, is that you are reading only sites like Jihadwatch and others that do not give any context whatsoever besides religion for the problems. Religion does not exist in a vacuum, and where there is violence, there are politics…that’s a concept you should easily grasp from your own knowledge of the history of the Church. The murder of millions of Jews, heretical christians, muslims, and witches combined in the name of our Church doesn’t make the Church evil…especially when you consider that all of these events had political contexts that had nothing to do with religious teaching.

Why is it so hard for you to see the same thing going on in the muslim world?

Because, so far, your explanations make almost no sense.​

I shall explain why tomorrow. Sorry, but I have to go ##