Can Jews by saved according to the Catholic Church?

[notsmart]

Please help me understand what you are saying. Could you direct me to Bible references to help me follow the Catholic position on unbelieving Jews. Would you say the faithful Jews became Christians?

They will become Christians before the end.
I could direct you to this to think about:
The first shall be last, and the last first

That is only one example that points to the Jews coming around before the end.

There are more.

 

[underdog]

They will become Christians before the end.
I could direct you to this to think about:
The first shall be last, and the last first

That is only one example that points to the Jews coming around before the end.

There are more.

Try Romans11. If God lifts the hardening of the Jewish nation later in history to believe in Christ, then what will those believing Jews become? The true Jews receives a circumcision by the Spirit, and are enabledby the grace of God to believe in the gospel and are united to Jesus Christ. Again, there is only two groups in all of humanity. All human beings are either united to Adam, or are united to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[notsmart]

Try Romans11. If God lifts the hardening of the Jewish nation later in history to believe in Christ, then what will those believing Jews become? The true Jews receives a circumcision by the Spirit, and are enabledby the grace of God to believe in the gospel and are united to Jesus Christ. Again, there is only two groups in all of humanity. All human beings are either united to Adam, or are united to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

I did not say a Jewish nation would believe. But, Jews that are open to grace will believe before the end.
You can not put old wine into new wineskins after all.

 

[underdog]

I did not say a Jewish nation would believe. But, Jews that are open to grace will believe before the end.
You can not put old wine into new wineskins after all.

So you believe like I do. Jews who believe in Jesus as the Christ will be saved (like Peter). However, the believing Jews in Christ are called Christians in the Bible.

Acts 11:26

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the (jewish) disciples were first called Christians.

 

[notsmart]

So you believe like I do. Jews who believe in Jesus as the Christ will be saved (like Peter). However, the believing Jews in Christ are called Christians in the Bible.

Acts 11:26

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the (jewish) disciples were first called Christians.

I am not sure we belive the same things yet, but we may.
Let me clarify, that I think it may take the second coming for Jews that do not believe now, that will see him and know him at that time. Not all will of course. Just as not all who call themselves christian will…

But, I do believe that after much trial when He comes again, there will be many Jews who will see him then.
May even be more of them that do, then those who say they follow Him.

 

[underdog]

Can we all agree that those Jews that are united to Christ will be saved by the grace of God. In addition, the body of Christ has no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

One in Christ
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, [3] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by [4] the Spirit.- Ephesians 2

 

[notsmart]

I think you are misunderstanding me somehow.

I am familliar with that bible verse, and unsure of what you are concluding from it.
Mind telling me?

 

[underdog]

I think you are misunderstanding me somehow.

I am familliar with that bible verse, and unsure of what you are concluding from it.
Mind telling me?

Hi notsmart,

I didn’t realize that you were not Roman Catholic. Therefore, I was trying to understand your posting as a Catholic Christian. Sorry. I think we believe the same things. I started the thread because it seems the Catholic Church is saying unbelieving Jews can be saved apart from faith in Christ.

 

[ralphinal]

God can show mercy and save whomever he wants. Anyone who is saved is saved by the mercy of God through the death and resurection of Jesus.

Underdog has no authority to tell God who he can and cannot show mercy to.

 

[notsmart]

Hi notsmart,

I didn’t realize that you were not Roman Catholic. Therefore, I was trying to understand your posting as a Catholic Christian. Sorry. I think we believe the same things. I started the thread because it seems the Catholic Church is saying unbelieving Jews can be saved apart from faith in Christ.

It should not matter that I am not christian to tell you what I did.
I hold that there will be Jews that will recoginize Jesus when he comes again, (see my prior posts)
I am not willing to say that all Jews will do so, and am not willing to say that all of those who call themselves christians will even then, even after intense suffering prior to His coming again.
Many Jews gave up their faith after intense suffering. Others became even stronger in their faith.
Its unclear to me how especially in the USA, how those that say they are christian will respond if given various trials to endure, but I believe Jesus would have done it all even for just one man.

 

[underdog]

God can show mercy and save whomever he wants. Anyone who is saved is saved by the mercy of God through the death and resurection of Jesus.

Underdog has no authority to tell God who he can and cannot show mercy to.

God’s salvation is based on justice being served. He is just and the justifer at the same time. God can only show mercy together with being just. It would be unjust for God to show mercy apart from being just, because that would make God immoral and unjust.

Please let me explain this is human terms. Let’s say there was a serial killer who murdered innocent people for 30 years. Finallly they caught the serial killer and he confessed to the numerous murders. During the trial, the jury convicts the killer on all charges of first degree murder. The judge comes back with the penalty for his crime. He tells everyone that the killer deserves the death penalty but I will be merciful and let him go because I AM the judge. We would all cry out that the judge was insane, unjust and corupt. The judge would lose all honor and respect of the people for his injustice. We would demand that the judge to step down from his authority because he was Incompetent.

Now let’s change this senario just a little bit. The judge comes back with the penalty for the crimes of mass murders. He tells everyone that the killer deserves the death peanlty, and justice will be served. But I want to show mercy to this sinner because I am a mericful and loving judge. Therefore,I have sent my one and only son whom I love to pay the penalty of the crimes of the killer. My Son will be executed for the crimes commited by the killer on his behalf. Justice we be served and I will show mercy who I want to show mercy to.

Here is the same truth in the Scriptures:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Rom 3

God would be unjust to show mercy to Muslims who do not have the Son to pay for their sins. Justice has to be served for sin, either by Jesus Christ or the sinner.

My answer above applies to all non-Christians. I cannot tell God anything. God has already spoken through His Son on how He chooses to be mericful. He has already provided His only way to be a vessel of His mercy which is through His Son. Are you saying Muslims and Jews can be saved through the death and ressurection of Jesus without faith in the biblical Jesus Christ? It almost appears you have a universalist belief system. The Apostle Paul tells us that the unbelieving Jew is not saved. Jesus calls the unbelieving Jew to be children of the devil.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them (Jews) is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[cathopologist]

Ummm, did you miss it? Under 839? I did post it. . .

He only sees what he wants to see and hears what he wants to hear.

 

[ralphinal]

My answer above applies to all non-Christians. I cannot tell God anything. God has already spoken through His Son on how He chooses to be mericful. He has already provided His only way to be a vessel of His mercy which is through His Son. Are you saying Muslims and Jews can be saved through the death and ressurection of Jesus without faith in the biblical Jesus Christ? It almost appears you have a universalist belief system. The Apostle Paul tells us that the unbelieving Jew is not saved. Jesus calls the unbelieving Jew to be children of the devil.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them (Jews) is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You keep going one step to far. God can save whomever he wants. Paul himself said that those who were not under the Law of Moses could still be saved by keeping the natural Law. Through God all things are possible. Now, before you jump off another cliff, I am not saying that you are just as well off to be non-Christian. No, that is not right. What I am saying is that those non-Christians, WHO THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, cannot know Christ are not damned for it.

Let em give you a good Biblical example. The story of Jonah.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

The resolution of this thread is that individuals cannot be judged by the religion they are raised in. Only God can judge their heart and their response to what light they have been given (as Paul affirms). The following is a slight de-rail from the topic at hand. I post it because I recently discovered this, and it goes against conventional wisdom concerning the affinity between the 3 major monolithic religions- particularly Judaism and Christianity.

I posted a thread asking a question related to the Jewish faith, and the ensuing discussion was quite enlightening. I have a very different understanding of the spiritual relationship between Judaism and Christianity now. If you are interested, here is the thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=291265

Judaism, rather than being most related to Christianity through means of a common Hebrew Scripture, is rather perhaps the most diametrically opposed to Christianity in terms of spiritual orientation.

The Jewish people believed that a brutal warlord 100 years after Christ was a better candidate for being the Messiah than Jesus had been. He tried to set up his own government. (And don’t miss the adjectives; brutal warlord.) This is what they are looking for in a Messiah. The Jewish faith despises the cross.

It is very fascinating, because those faiths that appear to be closest to Christianity, (Jewish and Muslim) are carnal and worldly in their understanding of God. They value power rather than sacrifice.

 

[underdog]

The resolution of this thread is that individuals cannot be judged by the religion they are raised in. Only God can judge their heart and their response to what light they have been given (as Paul affirms). The following is a slight de-rail from the topic at hand. I post it because I recently discovered this, and it goes against conventional wisdom concerning the affinity between the 3 major monolithic religions- particularly Judaism and Christianity.

I posted a thread asking a question related to the Jewish faith, and the ensuing discussion was quite enlightening. I have a very different understanding of the spiritual relationship between Judaism and Christianity now. If you are interested, here is the thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=291265

Judaism, rather than being most related to Christianity through means of a common Hebrew Scripture, is rather perhaps the most diametrically opposed to Christianity in terms of spiritual orientation.

The Jewish people believed that a brutal warlord 100 years after Christ was a better candidate for being the Messiah than Jesus had been. He tried to set up his own government. (And don’t miss the adjectives; brutal warlord.) This is what they are looking for in a Messiah. The Jewish faith despises the cross.

It is very fascinating, because those faiths that appear to be closest to Christianity, (Jewish and Muslim) are carnal and worldly in their understanding of God. They value power rather than sacrifice.

In summary, are we in agreement now?