Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

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I’d like to know what your humanistic code would look like. However, I know that we have really digressed on this thread. Would you consider starting a thread outlining it? I’m just wondering how close it would be to a Catholic morality.
 
JMJ,

The Humanist has a fairly simple world view. We support universal human ethics, reason and science. Most would throw in democracy and moderation as a natural outgrowth of reason and ethics. From a moral or ethical standpoint, you and I could agree on many things. Humans are social animals with many types of interactions, and you and I will react much the same way to them. We accept that generally killing, stealing, lying, or even being simply rude, are unacceptable to a varying degree because of their effects on us and others. We both are reasonable enough to see the exceptions, such as killing in self defense, or a starving person with no choice but to steal food…the list is long. We could agree that doing things, on balance, that create suffering is unethical, and things that tend to fairness and happiness are valued. We would both support reasonable laws where it is necessary, but personal freedoms are valued when respecting the rights of others. We agree so far, I hope.

Humanism assumes the irrelevance of divine revelation in the application of ethics so this is where we will part on some issues of morality. For Humanism, some infractions, sins if you prefer, do not exist…missing church on sunday, or violating some ritual, not praying, and obviously not having “faith”…would not be a problem. Where no outright human suffering is inflicted on another, such as the choice to use contraception, there is no ethical infraction whatsoever. Accepting the arguments of science over dogma, as with evolution theory, is a given.

Issues of personal indulgence would largely be answered with reasoned choice and moderation…gambliing, alcohol, smoking, drugs, etc…if not outright abstinance.

War is a tricky question because it is almost by definition a failure of reasonableness. Humanists vary in opinion, but pacifism is not implied. Self defence is reasonable.

I save abortion as a special topic. Reasonable people disagree about it, as do Humanists. I think most are not naturally repelled by the thought of aborting an embryo of a few cells, but most would be at the thought of late term procedures. I do think most would want the freedom of choice for themselves and others, as a statement of the value of personal choice. I know none that feel something like RU486 is an ethical problem.

The philosophy of Humanism is basically that we can encode ethics we all agree on and come to reasoned compromises on those we don’t, while putting a premium on personal choice.
I would enjoy your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Rod
 
Hmmm, would you consider yourself a libertarian?

So sorta live and let live, unless it greatly impacts another?
 
JMJ

In as much as some Humanist positions would seem libertarian, maybe so. But I do not subscribe to the Libertarian (big L) ideas such as abolishing income taxes, etc. I have no problem with regulated capitalism and I support socialized medicine on ethical grounds.(I am a physician)

Live and let live…the golden rule…I have no problem with that. The big problems always start when we feel we have ethical reasons to intervene on anothers behalf. How far should you go to prevent another from falling into heroin addiction…which my own reasoning says is always a problem. Does reason dictate mandatory treament, or simply labeling them as a criminal and imprisoning them? Guess that depends on reasonable assessments of their threat to society.

Politically, I would love to see our country act generally in a Humanist manner, and it often does. The country is secular and the Constitution holds to reasonable principles and personal freedom for the most part. We have our founding fathers to thank for the Humanistic approach to this founding document…that God is irrelevant to our nation’s laws. On a foreign policy theory, things get complicated. Such as, from an ethical standpoint, just how much is a powerful country like ours obligated to help or intervene in the affairs of other countries? Especially, when fighting is involved, it’s difficult to say. If most people can agree that intervention is ethical and needed, well, that’s probably what will happen. A reasonable minority opinion should be respected, however, as a country without an opposition has no conscience.
I’m afraid that if we start listening to things like " God says…so and so", our foreign policy certainly starts to run the risk of being unreasonable and jingoistic.

I’m curious, if America was a Catholic country how it might have acted differently in some of our recent international interventions. What do you think?

Later, Rod
 
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Sparetherod:
Michael,
I appreciate the effort but I can see that neither of us getting through. Maybe we should call this quits. These online chats are interesting and a challenge for me, and unique. It is almost unheard of for me to have this kind of discussion elsewhere as you can imagine it would deteriorate quickly with hurt feelings and ruined friendships. We have two different concerns: You are concerned about obeying a specific moral code to get to heaven. I have traded any chance at your heaven for the chance of promoting a humanistic code here on earth which would allow all to live together in peace.

May we wish each other good luck,

Rod
If you live by the moral code you can live heaven on earth. Goodness you complain Catholics are concerned about obeying a specific moral code, but then you want to promote your own specific moral code. So you get this moral code together, what makes you think people are going to follow it any more than they have the one proposed by the Church, espcially when your promise is so much less? I guess if everyone went through a purgatury on earth then maybe we could have peace, but then people would no longer have free will.
 
jman507, good morning,
Goodness you complain Catholics are concerned about obeying a specific moral code, but then you want to promote your own specific moral code. So you get this moral code together, what makes you think people are going to follow it any more than they have the one proposed by the Church, espcially when your promise is so much less?
Have you heard me complain about any believer’s code except where they try to force it on others. You are free not to use contraception, have abortions, be gay or anything else you have a problem with. With ethical consensus, you probably would not be free to have underage brides, commit honor killings, sacrifice virgins, have Inquisitions, or any number of UNETHICAL things believers are prone to want to do over the ages.
The philosophy of Humanism is basically that we can encode ethics we all agree on and come to reasoned compromises on those we don’t, while putting a premium on personal choice.
Where do you get the idea that this would be MY system and I would force it on you. I think "we all agree on " is the operative phrase. You’re still free to feel guilty about missing Mass; it just wouldn’t be part of OUR (yours and mine) law. As for human nature, I think people will always break laws. They break OURS…they pay here. They breakYOURS… they pay in hell. Fair enough?

Rod
 
Hi Rod,

I am late to this discussion, but wanted to help you in your search for knowledge. In reading your posts you seem to have several objections/questions about a Christian worldview. Here is how I read them and correct me if I am wrong. I wanted to correctly understand you before I tried to give you answers. You seem to be asking:
  1. (The Jonathan Edwards question.) How do we know if supernatural events are possible? How are the possible real ones distinguished from the false?
  2. (reflexology) How does one empirically prove that petitioning prayer is helpful to an individual?
  3. (Alien visitor) What is the basis for morality? Is it universal? How do we find it?
Now I have a couple of questions for you after reading your posts.
  1. Do you believe the supernatural is even possible in any form or are you a dogmatic naturalist?
  2. Do you think that the only truth we can know is scientific empirically tested truth?
 
Hey, Psalm89,

Finally…your the first who’s actually approached the thought process behind those questions. Your assessment is close enough. Give them a go.
Now I have a couple of questions for you after reading your posts.
  1. Do you believe the supernatural is even possible in any form or are you a dogmatic naturalist?
  1. Do you think that the only truth we can know is scientific empirically tested truth?
I am agnostic on the possibility of the supernatural only to the degree that I believe it’s possible that my chair will one day read to me. If the supernatural is possible, then that’s possible.
There is truth that science may not be able to state clearly or even test for…such as, “Is the death penalty truly a benefit for society?”
Later,Rod
 
Miracles. I’m not going to pretend to be original here, but this is a summary of the various things that I have read about the possibility of miracles. The best modern book on this subject is Miracles by C.S. Lewis and as he so eloquently points out that if ones mind is already made up about the non-existence of miracles than no proof will be sufficient.

I’m going to focus my thoughts on the first type of miracle, which I believe happens in everyday life, namely the existence of a real Free Will. I’m also going to use the term Natural World as both theists and atheists most commonly use it alike, namely it is all we can see and measure with our natural five senses. In this case think of the Natural Word as a closed bottle of fire, one that has no outside supernatural force pressing against it. Within this Natural World you and I, and perhaps all that there is, exists. Like a bottle of fire that has barriers we exist within it completely—for even the universe does has barriers as it extends in four dimensions (the fourth being time) according to the science I have read.

So in this bottle we are much like atoms. Moving to and fro as the bottle bends, and expands from the heat of the fire. For no doubt given enough time, the scientists say the universe will burn out. Being part of the fire, being wholly created by it and existing in it, we are of course part of it. We are totally interconnected to the fire and cannot escape its very grasp because we are part of it. There is no way that fire can cease to be fire, perhaps leave for a little bit and then become fire again if all there is, is fire. As parts of the fire light up and burn out so is our lives. One brief moment after the spark of life and then an eternity of darkness as our light goes out.

When fire presses upon fire it gives and takes. We can measure this in the real world quite easily even without complex scientific instruments. The simplest of men knew that by pushing on a small bock of stone they could move it. As our understanding of the Natural World became better we also got better at “pushing the block of stone around.” You mentioned that you are a physician and I am sure that you have a much better understanding than I about our greater understanding of natural phenomenon and how we can influence these things, but here is where our “pushing the block of stone around” gets hazy.

When the primitive man pushes a block of stone at the same time other things are happening, the air around the rock moves, his muscles contact from signals of his brain, and the earth under the rock moves. So what does this have to do with Free Will? Everything, as cause and effect dominate the simple moving of a rock. Whatever the reason behind the primitive man pressing the rock it is nothing more than a bio-chemical process in a living organism pressing against a piece of stone. If you empirically test this, the result will be the same each time. Whether it is 100 different men with 100 different types of rocks, the end result is still cause and effect, force against force, biochemistry against geology. Furthermore since the primitive man is made up of the same type of material, only natural material, then the moving of the rock has no more significance than a meteor hitting the earth and knocking the rock over.
 
But one objects, “The man is certainly different than a meteor.” He is in actual material, but not in approximate or type, as in natural material. Whether and amoeba pushes a small bit of dirt, a dog digs a hole, or a man pushes a rock the mechanisms are still the same. This means is that we cannot empirically measure the reason beyond simple stimulus and response. Hence the psychological study of Behaviorism. Behaviorism reduces all actions to cause and effect. The organism pulls back from fire because of heat, pushes a stone because it is in the way, eats because it is hungry. It says nothing about the consciousness, Free Will, or even mental states because they cannot be empirically tested. Which is why evolutionary psychology is a pseudo-science as we only know two empirical things about early man, they lived in groups and the females had babies. There is so little other evidence that anything beyond that is strict conjecture.

That is why Free Will from a naturalist standpoint must be an illusion. We are driven by two factors, heredity and environment in our universe, or bottle of fire. We cannot choose to exist in any other way since it is the way we do exist and because there is no other way to exist since the material is all there is forever. This is why in positivism we cannot know anything for fact beyond what can be empirically tested, everything else is simply conjecture and ultimately unknowable. The question, “Does God exist?” or “Do miracles happen?” are equally meaningless since it is outside of the realm of empiricism.

Yet this is where another problem creeps in. The positivist makes claims based upon things that cannot be tested. For instance the scientific method cannot be tested by the scientific method, yet the positivist certainly believes the method to be true. If it were untrue then the results would be suspect. In your work as a physician you wouldn’t trust a syringe that had faulty measurements, or a scale with out-of-order numbers. Truth, freedom, love, consciousness and ethics like you point out like the death penalty cannot be tested. So does that mean they cannot be discussed? Or are they rendered meaningless?

“We can discuss them,” comes the objection, “even if they are meaningless.” “We can apply existential values to them or use them in a utilitarian way.” This is true, but what about Free Will? To truly have Free Will it must be able to completely exist outside of the natural system and then come into the system, to be able to truly change the natural world. It cannot be dependent upon the natural system for it’s existence anymore than a bear must depend on its existence by having a leg caught in a trap. It must be able to move out of the system at its own volition. Once in the Natural World it is affected by it, but not trapped within it. It must be able to go into the Natural World manipulate it and then be able to leave. If no Free Will exists than we are simply atoms pushing atoms, which is meaningless.

Beyond that it also means that we cannot truly comprehend the natural world because we are caught within it. We are bags of atoms that try to comprehend other atoms in a naturalistic worldview, and as I have shown this is a fool’s folly. We cannot even trust the scientific method for it deals with truth, which cannot be tested empirically. For how does a collection of atoms truly manipulate other atoms if that is all there is? They cannot deliberately do so anymore than a wave deliberately pushes sand on the shore. This is the heart of Modernism, which we cannot know anything beyond what can be empirically tested. We cannot know good or bad, or God or anything that cannot be repeatedly tested.

This Free Will is the soul and supernatural. In my next post I will explain how the Great Soul, namely God works in the same manner.

Psalm89
 
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Psalm89:
But one objects, “The man is certainly different than a meteor.” He is in actual material, but not in approximate or type, as in natural material. Whether and amoeba pushes a small bit of dirt, a dog digs a hole, or a man pushes a rock the mechanisms are still the same. This means is that we cannot empirically measure the reason beyond simple stimulus and response. Hence the psychological study of Behaviorism. Behaviorism reduces all actions to cause and effect. The organism pulls back from fire because of heat, pushes a stone because it is in the way, eats because it is hungry. It says nothing about the consciousness, Free Will, or even mental states because they cannot be empirically tested. Which is why evolutionary psychology is a pseudo-science as we only know two empirical things about early man, they lived in groups and the females had babies. There is so little other evidence that anything beyond that is strict conjecture.

That is why Free Will from a naturalist standpoint must be an illusion. We are driven by two factors, heredity and environment in our universe, or bottle of fire. We cannot choose to exist in any other way since it is the way we do exist and because there is no other way to exist since the material is all there is forever. This is why in positivism we cannot know anything for fact beyond what can be empirically tested, everything else is simply conjecture and ultimately unknowable. The question, “Does God exist?” or “Do miracles happen?” are equally meaningless since it is outside of the realm of empiricism.

Yet this is where another problem creeps in. The positivist makes claims based upon things that cannot be tested. For instance the scientific method cannot be tested by the scientific method, yet the positivist certainly believes the method to be true. If it were untrue then the results would be suspect. In your work as a physician you wouldn’t trust a syringe that had faulty measurements, or a scale with out-of-order numbers. Truth, freedom, love, consciousness and ethics like you point out like the death penalty cannot be tested. So does that mean they cannot be discussed? Or are they rendered meaningless?

“We can discuss them,” comes the objection, “even if they are meaningless.” “We can apply existential values to them or use them in a utilitarian way.” This is true, but what about Free Will? To truly have Free Will it must be able to completely exist outside of the natural system and then come into the system, to be able to truly change the natural world. It cannot be dependent upon the natural system for it’s existence anymore than a bear must depend on its existence by having a leg caught in a trap. It must be able to move out of the system at its own volition. Once in the Natural World it is affected by it, but not trapped within it. It must be able to go into the Natural World manipulate it and then be able to leave. If no Free Will exists than we are simply atoms pushing atoms, which is meaningless.

Beyond that it also means that we cannot truly comprehend the natural world because we are caught within it. We are bags of atoms that try to comprehend other atoms in a naturalistic worldview, and as I have shown this is a fool’s folly. We cannot even trust the scientific method for it deals with truth, which cannot be tested empirically. For how does a collection of atoms truly manipulate other atoms if that is all there is? They cannot deliberately do so anymore than a wave deliberately pushes sand on the shore. This is the heart of Modernism, which we cannot know anything beyond what can be empirically tested. We cannot know good or bad, or God or anything that cannot be repeatedly tested.

This Free Will is the soul and supernatural. In my next post I will explain how the Great Soul, namely God works in the same manner.

Psalm89
Why don’t you start a new thread. What you are talking about has nothing to do with the thread topic!!
 
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Sparetherod:
jman507, good morning,

Have you heard me complain about any believer’s code except where they try to force it on others. You are free not to use contraception, have abortions, be gay or anything else you have a problem with. With ethical consensus, you probably would not be free to have underage brides, commit honor killings, sacrifice virgins, have Inquisitions, or any number of UNETHICAL things believers are prone to want to do over the ages.

Where do you get the idea that this would be MY system and I would force it on you. I think "we all agree on " is the operative phrase. You’re still free to feel guilty about missing Mass; it just wouldn’t be part of OUR (yours and mine) law. As for human nature, I think people will always break laws. They break OURS…they pay here. They breakYOURS… they pay in hell. Fair enough?

Rod
Your going to have to force the code on some. Not everyone is going to agree on the code, nor on the comprimises that many agree on. Are they going to be exempt, with those parts they feel an exception too or will you force them to agree?

Laws and ethics are not always the same. Not every ethical violation needs a law, not every law regards and ethical question. If you are rude to someone that does not mean one needs to give you a state ruling.

If you break a law its not as if the Church says you will not be punished until the day you die. It allows the temoporal punishment to be given by parties that have the authority to do so like the state. I see under the humanist it is very much so like that too. But now when it comes to eternal punishment the Chuch solely says that is up to God, the Chuch will not say who’s in hell & who is not, although it’ll say what will endanger you. Eternity seems for the humanist not really to matter, no matter any actions taken in this life will matter once one becomes non-existant. Hitler will live as Mother Theresa as will Martin Luther King Jr. as will Stalin.

When it comes to heaven and hell, I think you should look at it this way. Is a father entitled to say if his son is allowed to live in his houset once his son is no longer required by law to live with a parent. Could a father not say if you are not in my good graces you cannot stay here, if you do something I say don’t do, atleast reconcile with me?
 
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Sparetherod:
Have you ever known of the assumption of naturalistic causes to be in error. Why would you go against your own reasoning and give Moses or Pat Robertson a pass and say “maybe God does talk to them.” Rev. Pat is here and now, isn’t that more credible than a 3000 year old story.
I said that I assumed that everything is an illusion, could you say that is in error? I’m sure you could say yes, but it would be real hard to prove. Its a nice complete explanation like materialism is.

Why would I go against my reasoning to say “maybe God does talk to them.” Well if God did talk to them, there really isn’t going to be much evidence for them prove it was so. I don’t really know what happened with Moses and God, I don’t really read the Bible as a history, though I will say something did happen and it had a significance in Salvation History. There is also a difference in that all thoughout history may have spoke to people, but what is in the sacred scriptures of the Bible carry a different significance, in that they are a public revalation. If God talks to Pat Roberts, thats more for Pat Roberts sake than any of mine. Nothing in that private revalation could contradict the Church and the Bible, atleast according to the assumptions of Catholic revalation.

Of course that the Bible is the revalation is an assumption and a part of faith on my part. Given the explanation of the world from the Church I’m very much agree with what it has to say. It is not solely materialistic, it is not solely spiritual, but it mixes both. It shows that we do not act as we ought, but holds out the hope that one day we will. If there is one thing I can say, is that if there is a God, we do not act as if we are in union with him. In the end it really gives a point to life.
 
Your going to have to force the code on some. Not everyone is going to agree on the code, nor on the comprimises that many agree on. Are they going to be exempt, with those parts they feel an exception too or will you force them to agree?
Laws and ethics are not always the same. Not every ethical violation needs a law, not every law regards and ethical question. If you are rude to someone that does not mean one needs to give you a state ruling.
I agree with you…some will have to be forced not to steal or lie in court, etc. And no reasonable people see a need for laws against simple rudeness. See, we can agree generally. Ideally, there would be no rules such as that against inter-racial marriage…even if most did not support it on religious grounds…they may think it’s immoral, but it’s not unethical. You get my drift. For the most part, we live in such a society now…it’s secular and you are free to practice your moral principles. It’s the forcing of sectarian religious practices into society that would be a problem. Forced prayer in schools for example.
Eternity seems for the humanist not really to matter, no matter any actions taken in this life will matter once one becomes non-existant.
This is true for me, and though it may be hard for you to see, it makes me appreciate every day I have in this life a little more than I did before.
I said that I assumed that everything is an illusion, could you say that is in error?
No, but it’s simply irrelevant to me, it’s meaningless.
Why would I go against my reasoning to say “maybe God does talk to them.” Well if God did talk to them, there really isn’t going to be much evidence for them prove it was so.
In your mind, maybe you’re skeptical…good. The danger is…do you think the people that send him money think he is a fraud? People listen to him and believe him. There are people hoping Dover, PA(remember the ID trial) will be destroyed to vindicate their belief that God is against the teaching of evolution. This is the kind of irrational behavior that has prompted me to get interested in these discussions and the reason vs faith debate. It’s not really whether believing in God is reasonable…who cares? The problem is what peripheral dogma will do to people’s thinking processes. They can be led around in God’s name to do all sorts of weird things. I’m not picking on Catholics, believe me.

Rod
 
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