Can Laymen wear the Alb?

[Phemie]

The Alb is not a priestly vestment, per se. The GIRM makes clear that the proper garment for those serving in the mass in any ministry are properly garbed in the Alb and Cincture, and if need be, an amice.

The Alb is also the specified garment for the newly baptised in the rite of adult baptism.

I’m familiar with parishes which vest all their first communicants and candidates for Confirmation in albs. It represents their baptism, eliminates class distinction and prevents possible immodesty.

 

[centurionguard]

The Alb is not a priestly vestment, per se. The GIRM makes clear that the proper garment for those serving in the mass in any ministry are properly garbed in the Alb and Cincture, and if need be, an amice.

The Alb is also the specified garment for the newly baptised in the rite of adult baptism.

And most of the people who are assisting the deacon and priest are altar servers, not Acolytes… there are VERY FEW acolytes, as the term refers to those men having received installation into the instituted order of acolytes… and acolytes have a few tasks permitted them that non-acolyte laity may not do.

Well yes if you mean the term Acolyte is rarely a term used in the Novus Ordo Mass.
However; Altar Boys along with Deacons and Sub-deacons are often referred as acolytes… not Altar servers. newadvent.org/cathen/01106a.htm

EMHC’s are more in tune to be referred to as modern generic Altar servers than Altar Boys.

 

[Luger]

The alb is not a garment restricted to the ordained. Wearing an alb thus involves no blurring.

Not true.

The perfect example are readers. More often then not they come out of the nave and rarely do they wear any sort of vestment unless they are seminarians or the like. There is absolutely no question they are LAITY. On the other hand I have seen altar servers, readers and EMsHC that you would swear were concelebrating priests based on their (sometimes questionable) vestments and how they comport themselves.

I remember for example a female reader on a televised Mass who was wearing a white alb and a “scarf” made of *Kente *cloth. Given the situation I don’t think anyone had the nerve to tell her to remove her scarf and the result was that it appeared she was wearing a priest’s stole or at the very least an Anglican tippit.

I think the wearing of the alb by readers and EMsHC really has some merit but great care needs to be exercised if it’s allowed.

 

[Luger]

The Alb is not a priestly vestment, per se. The GIRM makes clear that the proper garment for those serving in the mass in any ministry are properly garbed in the Alb and Cincture, and if need be, an amice.

The Alb is also the specified garment for the newly baptised in the rite of adult baptism.

And most of the people who are assisting the deacon and priest are altar servers, not Acolytes… there are VERY FEW acolytes, as the term refers to those men having recieved installation into the instituted order of acolytes… and acolytes have a few tasks permitted them that non-acolyte laity may not do.

Does the GIRM even touch on the amice? I don’t think so.

Nor must a layperson wear a cincture to be “properly garbed” if they are wearing an alb. Many albs are designed not to be worn with a cincture. While a cincture is certainly allowed, it’s another one of those things that I wonder about given the meaning of the cincture.

 

[Dicerning]

as an EMHC myself…I hope we all become unemployed SOON!!!

 

[Phemie]

Does the GIRM even touch on the amice? I don’t think so.

Nor must a layperson wear a cincture to be “properly garbed” if they are wearing an alb. Many albs are designed not to be worn with a cincture. While a cincture is certainly allowed, it’s another one of those things that I wonder about given the meaning of the cincture.

The GIRM does touch on the amice. But you’re right, depending on the alb a cincture may not be necessary.

1. The sacred garment common to ordained and instituted ministers of any rank is the alb, to be tied at the waist with a cincture unless it is made so as to fit even without such. Before the alb is put on, should this not completely cover the ordinary clothing at the neck, an amice should be put on. The alb may not be replaced by a surplice, not even over a cassock, on occasions when a chasuble or dalmatic is to be worn or when, according to the norms, only a stole is worn without a chasuble or dalmatic.

 

[Aramis]

Does the GIRM even touch on the amice? I don’t think so.

Nor must a layperson wear a cincture to be “properly garbed” if they are wearing an alb. Many albs are designed not to be worn with a cincture. While a cincture is certainly allowed, it’s another one of those things that I wonder about given the meaning of the cincture.

Actually, it does…

from the USCCB US-adapted GIRM:
336. The sacred garment common to ordained and instituted ministers of any rank is the alb, to be tied at the waist with a cincture unless it is made so as to fit even without such. Before the alb is put on, should this not completely cover the ordinary clothing at the neck, an amice should be put on. The alb may not be replaced by a surplice, not even over a cassock, on occasions when a chasuble or dalmatic is to be worn or when, according to the norms, only a stole is worn without a chasuble or dalmatic.
…
339. In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lectors, and other lay ministers may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter6.shtml

Both Cincture and Amice are noted as potentially required depending upon the cut of the Alb.

 

[diggerdomer]

Not true.

Where does the Church teach or prescribe that the alb is only for the ordained?

 

[diggerdomer]

Well yes if you mean the term Acolyte is rarely a term used in the Novus Ordo Mass.
However; Altar Boys along with Deacons and Sub-deacons are often referred as acolytes… not Altar servers. newadvent.org/cathen/01106a.htm

EMHC’s are more in tune to be referred to as modern generic Altar servers than Altar Boys.

Sub-deacons? I thought that order was suppressed decades ago. Do you know of any current sub-deacons? Thanks.

 

[Aramis]

Sub-deacons? I thought that order was suppressed decades ago. Do you know of any current sub-deacons? Thanks.

Yes. FSSP and almost all the Churches of the Eastern Rites still ordain Subdeacons. All 5 Eastern Rites (all 22 churches) consider subdeacons Minor Orders; only in the Roman Church was the Order of Subdeacon suppressed, and that only because Roman ecclesiology had them as a major order. The FSSP are referring to them as Minor Orders as well, so the issue over which the council ordered them suppressed is not present.

fssp.com/press/2009/10/minor-orders-to-be-conferred/

My home parish has a Ruthenian Church Subdeacon, Mr. Steven Vrable.

And the term Acolyte is, at present, reserved to the instituted order of Acolytes; the old Catholic Encyclopedia does not match current terminology; it is, after all, the 1913-1917 US Catholic Encyclopedia, rather than a universal document, and Rome has changed the use of quite a few terms.

 

[Luger]

Where does the Church teach or prescribe that the alb is only for the ordained?

Please don’t try to put words in my mouth! I never suggested “the Church teach or prescribe(s) that the alb is only for the ordained.” It is exceedinly bad form to infer I did based on what I actually typed:

*"Not true.

The perfect example are readers. More often then not they come out of the nave and rarely do they wear any sort of vestment unless they are seminarians or the like. There is absolutely no question they are LAITY. On the other hand I have seen altar servers, readers and EMsHC that you would swear were concelebrating priests based on their (sometimes questionable) vestments and how they comport themselves.

I remember for example a female reader on a televised Mass who was wearing a white alb and a “scarf” made of Kente cloth. Given the situation I don’t think anyone had the nerve to tell her to remove her scarf and the result was that it appeared she was wearing a priest’s stole or at the very least an Anglican tippit.

I think the wearing of the alb by readers and EMsHC really has some merit but great care needs to be exercised if it’s allowed."
*

 

[Luger]

Yes. FSSP and almost all the Churches of the Eastern Rites still ordain Subdeacons. All 5 Eastern Rites (all 22 churches) consider subdeacons Minor Orders; only in the Roman Church was the Order of Subdeacon suppressed, and that only because Roman ecclesiology had them as a major order. The FSSP are referring to them as Minor Orders as well, so the issue over which the council ordered them suppressed is not present.

fssp.com/press/2009/10/minor-orders-to-be-conferred/

My home parish has a Ruthenian Church Subdeacon, Mr. Steven Vrable.

And the term Acolyte is, at present, reserved to the instituted order of Acolytes; the old Catholic Encyclopedia does not match current terminology; it is, after all, the 1913-1917 US Catholic Encyclopedia, rather than a universal document, and Rome has changed the use of quite a few terms.

Wow. Our deacon was a subdeacon for about 15 minutes before he was ordained a deacon but I have never heard of a “permanent” subdeacon in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church – at least in the USA. Which eparchy are you in?

 

[Aramis]

Wow. Our deacon was a subdeacon for about 15 minutes before he was ordained a deacon but I have never heard of a “permanent” subdeacon in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church – at least in the USA. Which eparchy are you in?

He’s transitional. Due to be ordained to the Deaconate next summer. One of two such subdeacons in the Eparchy.

Protection of the Mother of God of Phoenix.

 

[centurionguard]

Sub-deacons? I thought that order was suppressed decades ago. Do you know of any current sub-deacons? Thanks.

I was only making a point. And no I know of no sub-deacons used in the Catholic Church today. Is it really so surprising today how so few Catholics today even heard of a Sub-Deacon. Perhaps with the use of ultra modern Dalmatics we see today it would be difficult to discern if the Church still used sub-deacons today.

In the Sacristy Vestment room in my parish we still have old Pre-Vatican II Priestly Chasuble’s and Dalmatics that distinguish deacons and sub-deacons.

Some dioceses sadly don’t even have a deacon.

 

[Phemie]

Some dioceses sadly don’t even have a deacon.

Your archdiocese has, what, 2? I know they’re few and far between in the Atlantic provinces. How many? About 33 throughout the 11 dioceses/archdioceses, most of them in the Archdiocese of Halifax?

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes. FSSP and almost all the Churches of the Eastern Rites still ordain Subdeacons. All 5 Eastern Rites (all 22 churches) consider subdeacons Minor Orders; only in the Roman Church was the Order of Subdeacon suppressed, and that only because Roman ecclesiology had them as a major order. The FSSP are referring to them as Minor Orders as well, so the issue over which the council ordered them suppressed is not present.

fssp.com/press/2009/10/minor-orders-to-be-conferred/

My home parish has a Ruthenian Church Subdeacon, Mr. Steven Vrable.

And the term Acolyte is, at present, reserved to the instituted order of Acolytes; the old Catholic Encyclopedia does not match current terminology; it is, after all, the 1913-1917 US Catholic Encyclopedia, rather than a universal document, and Rome has changed the use of quite a few terms.

Thanks Aramis! Very grateful. I am admittedly lacking in my desired knowledge of Eastern Catholic Rites. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I’m still curious as centurionguard (who I responded to) identifies him/herself as Roman Catholic, why he/she mentioned sub-deacons. I hope he/she responds.

Thanks again.

 

[diggerdomer]

Please don’t try to put words in my mouth! I never suggested “the Church teach or prescribe(s) that the alb is only for the ordained.” It is exceedinly bad form to infer I did based on what I actually typed:

*"Not true.

The perfect example are readers. More often then not they come out of the nave and rarely do they wear any sort of vestment unless they are seminarians or the like. There is absolutely no question they are LAITY. On the other hand I have seen altar servers, readers and EMsHC that you would swear were concelebrating priests based on their (sometimes questionable) vestments and how they comport themselves.

I remember for example a female reader on a televised Mass who was wearing a white alb and a “scarf” made of Kente cloth. Given the situation I don’t think anyone had the nerve to tell her to remove her scarf and the result was that it appeared she was wearing a priest’s stole or at the very least an Anglican tippit.

I think the wearing of the alb by readers and EMsHC really has some merit but great care needs to be exercised if it’s allowed."
*

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I said that the alb is not restricted to the ordained. Your response started with, simply, “not true.”

Apologies if I misunderstood what you intended to convey.

 

[diggerdomer]

I was only making a point. And no I know of no sub-deacons used in the Catholic Church today. Is it really so surprising today how so few Catholics today even heard of a Sub-Deacon. Perhaps with the use of ultra modern Dalmatics we see today it would be difficult to discern if the Church still used sub-deacons today.

In the Sacristy Vestment room in my parish we still have old Pre-Vatican II Priestly Chasuble’s and Dalmatics that distinguish deacons and sub-deacons.

Some dioceses sadly don’t even have a deacon.

Why is it surprising that Roman Catholics have not heard of a sub-deacon (as you identify yourself as a Roman Catholic, I assume that’s what you’re referring to)?

In the Roman Catholic liturgy, there have not been sub-deacons for about 40 year or so…so, again, what’s the surprise? Thanks for any clarification.

 

[Luger]

diggerdomer:

You said:

"The alb is not a garment restricted to the ordained. Wearing an alb thus involves no blurring."

and I replied:

*Not true.

The perfect example are readers. More often then not they come out of the nave and rarely do they wear any sort of vestment unless they are seminarians or the like. There is absolutely no question they are LAITY. On the other hand I have seen altar servers, readers and EMsHC that you would swear were concelebrating priests based on their (sometimes questionable) vestments and how they comport themselves.

I remember for example a female reader on a televised Mass who was wearing a white alb and a “scarf” made of Kente cloth. Given the situation I don’t think anyone had the nerve to tell her to remove her scarf and the result was that it appeared she was wearing a priest’s stole or at the very least an Anglican tippit.

I think the wearing of the alb by readers and EMsHC really has some merit but great care needs to be exercised if it’s allowed.*

 

[Luger]

There are sub deacons in the Latin Rite outside of some rather limited order/society/etc? Is there an example of a subdeacon use in the OF?