Can Laymen wear the Alb?

[SRLAUREL]

Of course. My diocese proscribes it’s wear for all EMHC folks. I like it, because it helps show more reverence when we participate in giving out Holy Communion. We are of course doing something special here and the alb covers your “civilian” clothes. This is to me a religious/pious garment.

So I am assuming you meant prescribes, not proscribes. Proscribes means prohibits.

 

[Aramis]

There are sub deacons in the Latin Rite outside of some rather limited order/society/etc? Is there an example of a subdeacon use in the OF?

I am aware of a Melkite Subdeacon who serves as an Acolyte in a Roman Parish; He’s not where he can get to a Melkite parish, so he instead functions at the local Roman parish he lives near. He moved due to work, IIRC.

He vests as a melkite subdeacon, not as a Roman acolyte, however. Complete with his orarion tied about him.

A recent statement from the CDW stated that an instituted acolyte may vest as and serve as subdeacon for the EF.

 

[diggerdomer]

diggerdomer:

You said:

"The alb is not a garment restricted to the ordained. Wearing an alb thus involves no blurring."

and I replied:

*Not true.

The perfect example are readers. More often then not they come out of the nave and rarely do they wear any sort of vestment unless they are seminarians or the like. There is absolutely no question they are LAITY. On the other hand I have seen altar servers, readers and EMsHC that you would swear were concelebrating priests based on their (sometimes questionable) vestments and how they comport themselves.

I remember for example a female reader on a televised Mass who was wearing a white alb and a “scarf” made of Kente cloth. Given the situation I don’t think anyone had the nerve to tell her to remove her scarf and the result was that it appeared she was wearing a priest’s stole or at the very least an Anglican tippit.

I think the wearing of the alb by readers and EMsHC really has some merit but great care needs to be exercised if it’s allowed.*

I appreciate what you think. The point is: what does the Catholic Church teach? If you have Catholic teachings to support your feelings, please share.

 

[centurionguard]

Why is it surprising that Roman Catholics have not heard of a sub-deacon (as you identify yourself as a Roman Catholic, I assume that’s what you’re referring to)?

In the Roman Catholic liturgy, there have not been sub-deacons for about 40 year or so…so, again, what’s the surprise? Thanks for any clarification.

With all due respect just because you’ve heard of sub-deacons doesn’t mean all Catholics know about them? What’s the big deal in what I said. What I said doesn’t need any clarification. Why thank me for any clarification if you don’t require any unless you have another question.

 

[centurionguard]

Your archdiocese has, what, 2? I know they’re few and far between in the Atlantic provinces. How many? About 33 throughout the 11 dioceses/archdioceses, most of them in the Archdiocese of Halifax?

Actually there’s only one deacon in our Archdiocese. He’s married, fully retired and at the age of 91.

Strange though our deacon has been the only surviving deacon in our Archdiocese since the early 1980’s. Since the mid 1970’s no Catholic man married or single has sought serving as ordained deacons with our last three archbishops with any desires to serve in the diaconate.

Not so surprising really since the 1960’s with fewer and fewer men who don’t have the genuine calling or desire to become priests.

 

[Phemie]

Actually there’s only one deacon in our Archdiocese. He’s married, fully retired and at the age of 91.

Strange though our deacon has been the only surviving deacon in our Archdiocese since the early 1980’s. Since the mid 1970’s no Catholic man married or single has sought serving as ordained deacons with our last three archbishops with any desires to serve in the diaconate.

Not so surprising really since the 1960’s with fewer and fewer men who don’t have the genuine calling or desire to become priests.

I think though that there is as little knowledge about the permanent diaconate as there is about instituted ministries. When you’ve been in a parish your whole life without ever seeing a deacon, permanent or transitional, why would you even know that you can aspire to being one?

Not to mention that some bishops have no interest in ordaining permanent deacons. One priest told us that his bishop had categorically declared that he’d never ordain a permanent deacon as long as the laïcized priests who sat in his congregation every Sunday were not allowed exercise their priesthood.

 

[centurionguard]

I think though that there is as little knowledge about the permanent diaconate as there is about instituted ministries. When you’ve been in a parish your whole life without ever seeing a deacon, permanent or transitional, why would you even know that you can aspire to being one?

Not to mention that some bishops have no interest in ordaining permanent deacons. One priest told us that his bishop had categorically declared that he’d never ordain a permanent deacon as long as the laïcized priests who sat in his congregation every Sunday were not allowed exercise their priesthood.

When you’ve been in a parish your whole life without ever seeing a deacon, permanent or transitional, why would you even know that you can aspire to being one?

Hmmm; interesting statement, I would have thought that since both ordained priests and deacons receive this inner spiritual calling to become priests or deacons, they would both attest in a genuine sense that their real calling came from God Himself aside from their personal motives.

Not to mention that some bishops have no interest in ordaining permanent deacons.

This fact at least in my archdiocese is so regrettable. Is this how it is in dioceses throughout Nova Scotia?

Its sad because devout ordained deacons can be so helpful in the Church assisting the priest and relieving some of the work-load and stress that many priests have today due to an ever-growing shortage of priests.

I recall in the 1980’s when four men approached the Archbishop of that time, expressing strong interest of becoming deacons. I believe it was four to six years of in depth religious studies. Almost half-way into their studies all four men approached the Archbishop expressing strong intent of the Archbishop to take a year and a half off their studies and still retain their service in the diaconate. The Archbishop fired them all on the spot.

 

[diggerdomer]

With all due respect just because you’ve heard of sub-deacons doesn’t mean all Catholics know about them? What’s the big deal in what I said. What I said doesn’t need any clarification. Why thank me for any clarification if you don’t require any unless you have another question.

Why does it matter if all Catholics don’t know about sub-deacons? What does that have to do with this thread/topic?

 

[diggerdomer]

diggerdomer:

You said:

"The alb is not a garment restricted to the ordained. Wearing an alb thus involves no blurring."

and I replied:

*Not true.

The perfect example are readers. More often then not they come out of the nave and rarely do they wear any sort of vestment unless they are seminarians or the like. There is absolutely no question they are LAITY. On the other hand I have seen altar servers, readers and EMsHC that you would swear were concelebrating priests based on their (sometimes questionable) vestments and how they comport themselves.

I remember for example a female reader on a televised Mass who was wearing a white alb and a “scarf” made of Kente cloth. Given the situation I don’t think anyone had the nerve to tell her to remove her scarf and the result was that it appeared she was wearing a priest’s stole or at the very least an Anglican tippit.

I think the wearing of the alb by readers and EMsHC really has some merit but great care needs to be exercised if it’s allowed.*

Yes. I know what you said. That in no way meant, as I read it, the wearing of albs involves any “blurring.” Are you aware of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the wearing of albs?

 

[diggerdomer]

There are sub deacons in the Latin Rite outside of some rather limited order/society/etc? Is there an example of a subdeacon use in the OF?

Can you give me any (at least one) example of sub-deacons in today’s Roman Rite? Again, let’s keep on topic. The OP is identified as a Roman Catholic.

 

[Phemie]

Can you give me any (at least one) example of sub-deacons in today’s Roman Rite? Again, let’s keep on topic. The OP is identified as a Roman Catholic.

Any ordination that uses the 1962 Rite would have sub-deacons. The FSSP and those societies that celebrate the EF on a regular basis have sub-deacons.

 

[SimonDodd]

"CenturionGuard:

Not so surprising really since the 1960’s with fewer and fewer men who don’t have the genuine calling or desire to become priests.

I believe that God supplies ample vocations to the priesthood (and, I suppose, to the permanent diaconate also). How could it be otherwise? If the Church cannot function without priests, and God has promised that she will function, He must be supplying them. The problem, then, is not a lack of calling, it’s a lack of answering.

I think though that there is as little knowledge about the permanent diaconate as there is about instituted ministries. When you’ve been in a parish your whole life without ever seeing a deacon, permanent or transitional, why would you even know that you can aspire to being one?

What’s more, there are many people who insist that there is no difference between receiving communion from ordained ministers vs. EMHCs. There are several objections to this, but the one that’s germane here is this: If there is a pervasive culture that there’s nothing special about deacons, why would people make the sacrifices entailed in becoming a permanent deacon when they could do basically the same things as lay ministers? Our response to the vocations crisis, as I have argued, is in danger of exacerbating the vocations crisis.

One priest told us that his bishop had categorically declared that he’d never ordain a permanent deacon as long as the laïcized priests who sat in his congregation every Sunday were not allowed exercise their priesthood.

“Not allowed”? I don’t understand. Why were they laicized? Isn’t that typically done either because they request it (in which case it’s not a question of their not being “allowed”) or because they’ve done something horribly wrong (in which case they shouldn’t be allowed)?

 

[Phemie]

“Not allowed”? I don’t understand. Why were they laicized? Isn’t that typically done either because they request it (in which case it’s not a question of their not being “allowed”) or because they’ve done something horribly wrong (in which case they shouldn’t be allowed)?

IIRC he had 5 or 6 in his parish who had requested laïcization in order to get married. I guess he was one bishop who didn’t believe in mandatory celibacy for Catholic priests but he was certainly going about his protest in a harmful way.

 

[Luger]

Yes. I know what you said. That in no way meant, as I read it, the wearing of albs involves any “blurring.” Are you aware of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the wearing of albs?

Sure it blurs. The magnitude of the blurring depends on the local setting and on the training and education of the people viewing the EMsHC clad in albs.

Of course I know what the Church teaches on the wearing of albs. I’m also aware that most Catholics do not understand this. Nor do people who wear albs always act like servers or EMsHC nor do they always wear their albs in a manner (unaccessorized.) Many times albs distract people with questions during the Mass and that’s bad.

That said with some of the garb EMsHC wear, I think if I was a pastor I would ask that ALL EMsHC wear an off-white albs of a specific model/manufacturer. One that required neither an amice nor a cincture. I would prohibit ALL pins, patches, scarfs, etc. etc.

With shopping nice ones can be had for $30-50 in volume. Each EMHC would be required to purchase their own and keep it up. If there was an issue about money, the parish would provide one.

 

[Phemie]

That said with some of the garb EMsHC wear, I think if I was a pastor I would ask that ALL EMsHC wear an off-white albs of a specific model/manufacturer. One that required neither an amice nor a cincture. I would prohibit ALL pins, patches, scarfs, etc. etc.

I’ve never understood the point of an ‘off-white’ alb. Isn’t that an oxymoron?

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I’ve never understood the point of an ‘off-white’ alb. Isn’t that an oxymoron?

We have both styles at our parish, and the “off-white” ones look far nicer and “dressier.” The pure white ones look like they’re made from a bedsheet.

 

[Phemie]

We have both styles at our parish, and the “off-white” ones look far nicer and “dressier.” The pure white ones look like they’re made from a bedsheet.

that has more to do with the style and fabric of the alb that the colour. A well cut alb in a heavyweight fabric looks fine in white. The typical altar server alb does look like it was whipped up from a spare bedsheet.

 

[diggerdomer]

Sure it blurs. The magnitude of the blurring depends on the local setting and on the training and education of the people viewing the EMsHC clad in albs.

Of course I know what the Church teaches on the wearing of albs. I’m also aware that most Catholics do not understand this. Nor do people who wear albs always act like servers or EMsHC nor do they always wear their albs in a manner (unaccessorized.) Many times albs distract people with questions during the Mass and that’s bad.

So what’s more important? What the Church teaches, or what people understand? Are you saying wearing albs as allowed by the Church is not preferred because people misunderstand? Thanks.

 

[SimonDodd]

So what’s more important? What the Church teaches, or what people understand? Are you saying wearing albs as allowed by the Church is not preferred because people misunderstand? Thanks.

The Church presumably allows it on the presupposition that people do understand. Where there’s a risk that something which is optional will be misunderstood, it’s worth exploring possible ways to fix that situation: by catechesis, by taking the option not to do it, etc.

 

[Luger]

I’ve never understood the point of an ‘off-white’ alb. Isn’t that an oxymoron?

I agree when it comes to clergy, acolytes and servers. When it came to EMsHC I think it would be an advantage – a specific uniform that differs from the rest.