Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
If the inspired-inerrant Scriptures are not the complete message from God then what else is inspired-inerrant? ( If there is a message from God outside it would have to be inspired-inerrant)Do you you have some specific examples from Sacred Tradition that your church calls inspired-inerrant?

Gamera;
The preaching of Christ and the Apostles, which Scripture calls “the word of God,” (1 Thes 2:13).

True and all they we know of them can only be found in the Scriptures.

 

[jmcrae]

True and all they we know of them can only be found in the Scriptures.

You keep repeating this as if repetition would cause it to become true. The Bible is not the only witness (and indeed, without the other witnesses, we could not have a Bible, since it is these other witnesses that gave us the Bible, in the first place).

We have the witness of the Early Church, we have the Mass, we have the Creeds, and many other things that they passed down to us through the Church.

 

[justasking4]

You keep repeating this as if repetition would cause it to become true. The Bible is not the only witness (and indeed, without the other witnesses, we could not have a Bible, since it is these other witnesses that gave us the Bible, in the first place).

We have the witness of the Early Church, we have the Mass, we have the Creeds, and many other things that they passed down to us through the Church.

I keep asking for another inspired-inerrant source that is equal to the Scriptures and have yet to see it. Its claimed but never shown exactly what it is. I’m not talking about a “witness” but the source itself that is said to be inspired-inerrant. Sacred Tradition but never shown how it should be taken to be inspired-inerrant.

 

[jmcrae]

I keep asking for another inspired-inerrant source that is equal to the Scriptures and have yet to see it. Its claimed but never shown exactly what it is. I’m not talking about a “witness” but the source itself that is said to be inspired-inerrant. Sacred Tradition but never shown how it should be taken to be inspired-inerrant.

Sacred Tradition is the oral word of Christ; are you saying He was not inspired/inerrant?

 

[Gamera]

True and all they we know of them can only be found in the Scriptures.

Where do you get that idea?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
I keep asking for another inspired-inerrant source that is equal to the Scriptures and have yet to see it. Its claimed but never shown exactly what it is. I’m not talking about a “witness” but the source itself that is said to be inspired-inerrant. Sacred Tradition but never shown how it should be taken to be inspired-inerrant.

jmcrae
Sacred Tradition is the oral word of Christ; are you saying He was not inspired/inerrant?

Whatever Christ speaks would be inspired-inerrant. Now what oral teachings do we have of the Lord Jesus that is not in the written Scriptures?

 

[happilycatholic]

If the inspired-inerrant Scriptures are not the complete message from God then what else is inspired-inerrant? ( If there is a message from God outside it would have to be inspired-inerrant)Do you you have some specific examples from Sacred Tradition that your church calls inspired-inerrant?

OKAY BECAUSE I AM A NEW MEMBER, I DO NOT HAVE THE BENEFIT OF SOME OF THE TOOLS LIKE “MULIPLE QUOTES” AND CHANGING MY FONT COLORS, SO I AM WRITING IN CAPS FOR CONVENIENCE IN LOCATING MY RESPONSES. SORRY ABOUT THAT.

SACRED TRADITION -

OUR SACRED TRADITION IS NO MORE ERRANT THAN YOUR PASTOR’S INTERPRETATION OR YOUR OWN. SO THE POINT YOU MAKE IS REALLY MOOT.

FOR EXAMPLE: YOU RECEIVE COMMUNION ONLY ONCE A YEAR, ASSUMING YOU ARE NON-CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN. THE WAY IN WHICH YOU RECEIVE IT IS NOT BIBLICAL, IT IS A TRADITION WHICH IS ACCEPTED BY YOUR DENOMINATION AS CORRECT AND AS DERIVED FROM A SINGLE PERSON’S INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE. AGAIN, YOU ARE RELYING ON YOUR CHURCH’S INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.

True he did add it. However it is still true that salvation is found only in Christ alone.

HOW DOES THIS FIT YOUR INSPIRED-INERRANT MESSAGE FROM GOD THEORY? SO THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE OF TEACHING OF MAN IS ACCEPTABLE? WHO WAS MARTIN LUTHER TO TAKE IT UPON HIMSELF TO CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE BIBLE? AND YET YOU ARE OKAY WITH THAT. ARE YOU FOLLOWING CHRIST OR MARTIN LUTHER?

Does your church call Mary’s encounter with the angel a prayer?

OF COURSE NOT, WE ALL KNOW WHAT PRAYER IS.

Where has your church defined intercession in the way you are stating it here?

WHAT GOOD WOULD IT DO TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU? YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE DOCTRINE OF MY CHURCH. THE POINT IS MOOT.

Good to hear he was safe and i pray he continues to be. What would you say to a Mormon who prays to Joseph Smith for help and has a close connection with him?

THANK YOU. ALL PRAYERS ARE TRULY APPRECIATED.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL WE HAVE TO PUT THIS BACK INTO CONTEXT. ASSUMING WHEN YOU SAY “HELP” MEANING JOSEPH SMITH WOULD GO TO GOD ON THE MORMAN’S BEHALF, THEN, YES. BECAUSE JOSEPH SMITH CANNOT DO ANYTHING BUT GO TO GOD ON HIS BEHALF. THE SAME AS IF I ASK YOU TO PRAY FOR ME, YOU ARE GOING TO GOD ON MY BEHALF. I WANT TO CLARIFY THAT I’VE ONLY SEEN THE TERM “INTERCESSION” USED WHEN REFERRING TO THE SAINTS. MY GUESS IS THAT IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE TRULY VENERATED. BUT I THINK PEOPLE (EVEN YOURSELF) GET HUNG UP ON SAMANTICS. I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSING THE REQUEST (PRAYER) WITH THE RESULTING ACTION (INTERCESSION).

This still would not justify in doing so. The Scriptures never mention any powers attributed to her to intercede. The only One is the Lord Jesus.

WE’VE ADDRESSED THIS. IT IS NOT “HER” POWER IT IS GOD’S POWER ACCORDING TO HIS WILL.

The Scriptures only mention that she was at the crucifixion site. The Passion of the Christ is not totally accurate biblically if this is where you are getting this idea.

I WASN’T GOING ON MEL GIBSON’S VERSION OF THE CRUCIFIXION. I REALLY HAVE NO BASIS FOR THIS, AND I DON’T FEEL THE NEED TO EXPLAIN.

The “boundary” are what the Scriptures teach and say. It alone is revelation from God and there is no other. To go beyond what is written is to speculate.

SEE, THAT IS THE PROBLEM. YOU SEE THE BIBLE AS A BOUNDRY, I SEE IT AS A WINDOW AND OPENING TO A GREATER KNOWLEDGE WITH THE ONLY BOUNDRY BEING GOD’S WILL. AND THERE IS NO BOUNDRY THERE. THE BIBLE IS NOT A DEAD MESSAGE, BUT A LIVING ONE.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
True and all they we know of them can only be found in the Scriptures.

Gamera

Where do you get that idea?

There is nothing outside of the NT that the apostles wrote. They probably wrote and said things that are not contained in the NT but we don’t have those documents or oral teachings recorded anywhere but in the Scriptures. If you think there are then where can they be found and what are some examples of them?

 

[jmcrae]

There is nothing outside of the NT that the apostles wrote.

Why does it have to be something that they wrote? What about the Mass? What about the other Sacraments? The words and actions were given by the Apostles, for these, and people learned them by watching and listening; not by reading. These are all most certainly Apostolic in origin.

 

[justasking4]

SEE, THAT IS THE PROBLEM. YOU SEE THE BIBLE AS A BOUNDRY, I SEE IT AS A WINDOW AND OPENING TO A GREATER KNOWLEDGE WITH THE ONLY BOUNDRY BEING GOD’S WILL. AND THERE IS NO BOUNDRY THERE. THE BIBLE IS NOT A DEAD MESSAGE, BUT A LIVING ONE.

It is a boundary in the sense that it alone is inspired-inerrant Word of God. There is no higher source than this that we can confidently say is the Word of God. It is important to understand its message and derive our doctrines and practices from it. Outside of it we are left with the speculations of men. That’s why it is impossible to get the Marian doctrines are not biblical doctrines since they cannot be grounded in the Scriptures. To say that she is sinless and can intercede for you is not found in the Scriptures and the apostles never taught such a doctrine.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;4366303]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is nothing outside of the NT that the apostles wrote.

jmcrae
Why does it have to be something that they wrote?

If don’t have their writings to support something and someone says an apostle taught this then you have no way to test this as being true or false. Its easy to put things in the apostles mouths if you don’t have to back it up with some docuaments that show they did in fact teach such a thing.

What about the Mass? What about the other Sacraments? The words and actions were given by the Apostles, for these, and people learned them by watching and listening; not by reading. These are all most certainly Apostolic in origin.

Which apostle said a Mass and when did he?

 

[Gamera]

There is nothing outside of the NT that the apostles wrote. They probably wrote and said things that are not contained in the NT but we don’t have those documents or oral teachings recorded anywhere but in the Scriptures. If you think there are then where can they be found and what are some examples of them?

You asked me this twice earlier in the thread. My answers then (both times) and now were thse examples:

• Mark’s authorship of his Gospel
• The New Testament Canon
• The identity of John the Evangelist as the same John who wrote Revelation
• baptism by pouring
• Mary’s assumption

 

[jmcrae]

If don’t have their writings to support something and someone says an apostle taught this then you have no way to test this as being true or false. Its easy to put things in the apostles mouths if you don’t have to back it up with some docuaments that show they did in fact teach such a thing. [/qutoe]

The documents are the writings of the Early Fathers who watched them doing these things, and passed them on to their own successors. There is also a great deal of archaeological evidence of Masses being held in the Catacombs and in other places.

Which apostle said a Mass and when did he?

 

[justasking4]

Gamera;4366318]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is nothing outside of the NT that the apostles wrote. They probably wrote and said things that are not contained in the NT but we don’t have those documents or oral teachings recorded anywhere but in the Scriptures. If you think there are then where can they be found and what are some examples of them?

Gamera
You asked me this twice earlier in the thread. My answers then (both times) and now were thse examples:

• Mark’s authorship of his Gospel

This gospel is inspired-inerrant and is contained in the canon of Scripture.

• The New Testament Canon

This is the result of Scripture

The identity of John the Evangelist as the same John who wrote Revelation

These are historical issue related to the canon itself. None of these examples mention any teachings of an apostle outside the NT.

• baptism by pouring

What apostle did this?

• Mary’s assumption

What apostle taught this?

 

[jmcrae]

These are historical issue related to the canon itself. None of these examples mention any teachings of an apostle outside the NT.

And where do we find the history that shows us this? (Holy Tradition, that’s where.)

What apostle did this?

St. Peter, unless you think he baptised three thousand people by full immersion in the “river” Jordan - it’s not usually more than knee deep.

What apostle taught this?

St. Thomas.

 

[Gamera]

Gamera;4366318:

Originally Posted by justasking4
There is nothing outside of the NT that the apostles wrote. They probably wrote and said things that are not contained in the NT but we don’t have those documents or oral teachings recorded anywhere but in the Scriptures. If you think there are then where can they be found and what are some examples of them?

Gamera
You asked me this twice earlier in the thread. My answers then (both times) and now were thse examples:

• Mark’s authorship of his Gospel

This gospel is inspired-inerrant and is contained in the canon of Scripture.

No, I said Mark’s authorship – meaning, Mark’s identity as the author. Nowhere does the text of Mark’s Gospel identify its author. We know it’s Mark because that’s what the Aptosles taught.

Gamera;4366318:

• The New Testament Canon

This is the result of Scripture

No, it most certainly isn’t. What chapter and verse tell us which books belong to the New Testament? The New Testament didn’t include an inspired Table of Contents telling us which books belong to the New Testament. We rely on Apostolic Traditition to tell us that.

Gamera;4366318:

The identity of John the Evangelist as the same John who wrote Revelation

These are historical issue related to the canon itself. None of these examples mention any teachings of an apostle outside the NT.

I don’t understand this response.

Gamera;4366318:

• baptism by pouring

What apostle did this?

Presumably all of them, since it was a widespread practice in the Second Century and is described in the Didache.

Gamera;4366318:

• Mary’s assumption

What apostle taught this?

Presumably all of them, since it was a widespread belief in the early Church. One of the apostles witnessed it, I believe.

 

[Peter_J]

If the inspired-inerrant Scriptures are not the complete message from God then what else is inspired-inerrant? ( If there is a message from God outside it would have to be inspired-inerrant)Do you you have some specific examples from Sacred Tradition that your church calls inspired-inerrant?

Does your church call Mary’s encounter with the angel a prayer?

Not in any document I’ve ever read. But I think we all know that individuals Catholics sometimes say things that aren’t actually Catholic teaching (duh).

 

[Peter_J]

You keep repeating this as if repetition would cause it to become true.

jmcrae,

If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were a newcomer to this forum.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae,

If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were a newcomer to this forum.

Was I pointing out the obvious, again?

 

[jfallaw]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Is Mary, god? No. she’s a mortal. So how can she be good or sinless when Jesus says ONLY GOD IS GOOD?

A lot of Catholics do not understand why, since Mary can give birth to Jesus how could she have sin? And since Jesus is God, therefore Mary must be the mother of God.

The Bible clearly states, where God says ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end’. This means that God does NOT have ANYBODY else before Him. IN OTHER WORDS, He does NOT have parents. So, how can Mary be God’s mother?

Well, Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus. But Jesus is BOTH Man & God. The fleshly body of Jesus is Man, the Spirit that is in Him is God. Mary was used as a vessel to give birth to the FLESH that God used while He was on earth. There is no way that a mortal being can give birth to the immortal God.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Insisting that God was born by Mary is B-L-A-S-P-H-E-M-Y.

Let’s not also forget that Mary called herself a slave/servant of God, and she too prayed feverishly with the other disciples after Christ’s resurrection for the coming Holy Spirit. She Did Not pray For the others, but WITH the others. In other words, she is just another sinner like you and me. At the 1st miracle of water to wine at the wedding in Capernaum (John 2) when she informed Jesus that the wine had ran out, Jesus replied her bluntly ‘what has this concern of yours to do with me, woman’? ‘My hour has not yet come’.

This incident shows clearly that Mary has no involvement with the works of God, neither does she know what God has in store. She is a humble and obedient servant of God.

Job 25:4 How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?

Indeed, if Jesus was born of woman, He would be impure. But Jesus is NOT born of woman!

For Jesus also said ‘Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.’

If Jesus was also born of woman, would He not even be lesser than John the Baptist?

Jesus said ‘I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. No man goes to the Father except through me’.

Now, do you still need to go through Mary??? No, you obviously don’t.

Mary had sin in her just like you and me, BUT she was highly regarded enough to be chosen by God as His earthly mother while He abided on earth. Mary cannot intercede for you just like nobody can intercede for you. That is why Jesus is both the judge & mediator.

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Yes, for God mediates for us unto Himself through Jesus Christ.

Jesus, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Not the Pope, not Peter and certainly not Mary.

Catholics, read the Bible for yourself before its too late.

.

So are you saying that Jesus was not sinless? That He basically confessed to being a sinner by His words?