Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Realcatholicgk]

I do.
If she can nurture Him, I think she can nurture me…

**
adstrinity, I do also

If she can nurture Jesus, I know she can nuture me…Mary is Sinless and Intercedes for me!

Guan, my friend how are you? So, the battle continues. Luckly for us the Best man always wins so who could win against Jesus? **

freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.giffreesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif

 

[Good_Fella]

Why pray to her when Jesus said that he is the mediator, she cannot intercede if she is not omnipotent or divine. No human has the power to handle our prayer let alone our problems.

Devotion and prayer, and listening to her (especially since she is dead) would be putting your faith in her.

Here we go again.

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made for everyone. This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1, 3-4

When the wine was gone, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
John 2, 3

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against his Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 [A.D. 180]

Note the title of Irenaeus’ work. Dishonour toward our Blessed Mother and New Eve in contravention of Apostolic Tradition may not be a novelty springing from the misconceptions of modern day Protestant Fundamentalists.

Thank God that Mary had cooperated with His grace by conforming her will to the Father’s. In light of Mary’s ‘Fiat’ it was fitting that Jesus chose to perform his first and most crucial miracle through the solicitation of our maternal advocate. After all, it was through Mary that our Saviour came into the world. We must not underestimate the key intercessory role Mary played in association with her Son. God chose no other path to save us, one that required faithful human participation. The evangelists Luke and John were aware of Mary’s significant role, which is evident in how they portray and quote Our Lady, not to mention the words of her cousin Elizabeth.

In a loud voice, she exclaimed: “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. But who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as ‘the sound of your greeting’ reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 42-45

Luke certainly acknowledged Mary’s importance in God’s plan of salvation in her close association with Jesus. Like Elizabeth all Christians should be grateful for the human advocate God has graciously given us and be appreciative to Mary for her unwavering faith. Without our Blessed Mother’s participation we would have no cause to leap for joy. Mary’s advocacy for our eternal benefit began at the Annunciation, was properly exercised at the wedding feast in Cana, and continues with her Assumption into heaven where she sits enthroned in glory next to her Son, our Lord and King, as our Queen Mother of the Church and prayerful advocate to God’s people.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Corinthians, 15, 20-23

Considering what our Blessed Mother has to say, why shouldn’t we listen to her?

“Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 5

PAX :tiphat:

 

[Gamera]

… The bible tells us our righteousness is filthy rags …

No, it doesn’t. Isaiah 64:6 speaks of those who have abandoned God when it says, “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like filthy rags. We all fade life a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one that calls upon your name …” That passage cannot refer to every individual person because a following verse, verse 11, refers to other people who do call upon God’s name. “Our holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised you.” Since verse 11 says that some people have called upon God’s name, verse 6 cannot be referring to every individual person. Rather, verse 6 refers to sinners. In fact, the preceding verse, verse 5, shows that some people’s actions are righteous: “You meet him that joyfully works righteousness, those that remember you in your ways.”

It is the good deeds of people in the state of sin which God considers “filthy rags.” Not good deeds of those who are in a state of grace.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

No, it doesn’t. Isaiah 64:6 speaks of those who have abandoned God when it says, “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like filthy rags. We all fade life a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one that calls upon your name …” That passage cannot refer to every individual person because a following verse, verse 11, refers to other people who do call upon God’s name. “Our holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised you.” Since verse 11 says that some people have called upon God’s name, verse 6 cannot be referring to every individual person. Rather, verse 6 refers to sinners. In fact, the preceding verse, verse 5, shows that some people’s actions are righteous: “You meet him that joyfully works righteousness, those that remember you in your ways.”

It is the good deeds of people in the state of sin which God considers “filthy rags.” Not good deeds of those who are in a state of grace.

**
Hi Gamera, So basically it means that Protestants works are like rags? I guess in FollowtheWrongWay’s case his statement is correct, don’t you think? No wonder many of them think they are saved by Faith alone, or the really funny one Sola Scriptra, The scriptures alone. But the OP is about Mary being sinless and interceding for us. I think through her intercession their good deeds could turn from rags to gold if they pray to Her.:**thumbsup:

 

[389670]

Truthfaithlove;4285687]Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Do catholics beleive Mary was good because Mary never sined?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Do catholics beleive Mary was good because Mary never sined?

**
I think that everyone could agree that if you never sinned you couldn’t be considered “Bad” . Don’t you? Did you mean to ask another question?

Mary was Sinless because she was born that way in order to be prepared to give birth to Jesus. She was taken by Him up into Heaven body and soul and intercedes on our behalf.

Did that help?**

 

[jmcrae]

Do catholics beleive Mary was good because Mary never sined?

Jesus was pointing out that even if someone never sins, he or she is only doing what God already expects. To be “good” (that is, meritorious) you have to be better than expected - which is impossible, except for God.

 

[guanophore]

Do catholics beleive Mary was good because Mary never sined?

I am not sure I understand your question. Catholics believe that what causes ‘goodness’ in people is that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and His grace is shed abroad in our hearts, making us able to walk in His ways. Mary was 'good" because she was full of God’s grace, and when that happens, there is no room for sin.

Jesus is “good” because His nature is divine.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I am not sure I understand your question. Catholics believe that what causes ‘goodness’ in people is that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and His grace is shed abroad in our hearts, making us able to walk in His ways. Mary was 'good" because she was full of God’s grace, and when that happens, there is no room for sin.

Jesus is “good” because His nature is divine.

**
Yes, mary can be sinless and intercede for us! guan. have you seen JA4? I haven’t for days! **

 

[MySavior]

Do catholics beleive Mary was good because Mary never sined?

If Mary never sinned, wouldn’t that make her God like?

 

[adstrinity]

If Mary never sinned, wouldn’t that make her God like?

No. That would make her human.

Since we sin, we behave less than human.

 

[jmcrae]

If Mary never sinned, wouldn’t that make her God like?

Not at all. Animals don’t sin, and it doesn’t make them into God. Neither do inanimate objects.

Being without sin isn’t the only characteristic that makes someone God.

Being without sin is what makes us fully human. When we repent of our sins and refrain from sinning any more, we become more fully human than we were before. We don’t become like God, though.

 

[MySavior]

No. That would make her human.

Since we sin, we behave less than human.

So the Lord is human? I don’t get the logic of this. Could you please use Scripture to show me what you mean here?

 

[jmcrae]

So the Lord is human?

Jesus is God because He is the uncreated Creator - not because He is without sin. He is without sin as a side effect of being the Creator; being without sin is not what makes Him to be God.

Human beings were created without sin (Genesis 1:26-27). They were fully human, and God called them “good.”

Later (Genesis 2), they sinned, and then God ejected them from the Garden of Eden and visited them with various punishments, because they had become less than what He had created them to be. They were less than fully human, when they sinned.

Mary, being without sin, is like Eve when Eve was first created. Mary is what Eve was supposed to be - what Eve was created to be.

Mary attains to the perfect human-ness that Eve lost when she sinned.

 

[adstrinity]

So the Lord is human? I don’t get the logic of this. Could you please use Scripture to show me what you mean here?

Of course the Lord is human.

 

[MySavior]

Not at all. Animals don’t sin, and it doesn’t make them into God. Neither do inanimate objects.

Being without sin isn’t the only characteristic that makes someone God.

Being without sin is what makes us fully human. When we repent of our sins and refrain from sinning any more, we become more fully human than we were before. We don’t become like God, though.

The idea of using inanimate objects in this discussion seems odd.
As far as animals are concerned, can you show me a scripture that clearly indicates that they have a soul?

Sin is something that we are born with because of the fall of Adam in Genesis. Sin is not what we do, it is what we are. There is no person, other than Christ, that has led a sinless life. There were men that were considered “righteous” because of their following of Old Testament law, which was a difficulty that’s for sure. There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament.

Romans 3:23 says that “All have sinned and fall short of the of the glory of God and Romans 3:10 says, " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” Psalm 14:3 “There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

We are created in God’s image, but for us to be without sin would mean that we are God. It is sin that separates us from God and why Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. He was a Lamb without blemish.

 

[happilycatholic]

The answer is yes! A hundred, no a thousand, a million times YES!!

***Flocks feed by darkness with a noise of whispers,
In the dry grass of pastures,
And lull the solemn night with their weak bells. ***
***The little towns upon the rocky hills
Look down as meek as children:
Because they have seen come this holy time. ***
***God’s glory, now, is kindled gentler than low candlelight
Under the rafters of a barn:
Eternal Peace is sleeping in the hay,
And Wisdom’s born in secret in a straw-roofed stable. ***
***And O! Make holy music in the stars, you happy angels.
You shepherds, gather on the hill.
Look up, you timid flocks, where the three kings
Are coming through the wintry trees; ******While we unnumbered children of the wicked centuries
Come after with our penances and prayers,
And lay them down in the sweet-smelling hay
Beside the wise men’s golden jars. ***

---

***~Thomas Merton (1915-1968), Trappist monk and priest ***

 

[jmcrae]

The idea of using inanimate objects in this discussion seems odd.
As far as animals are concerned, can you show me a scripture that clearly indicates that they have a soul?

The soul is the animating principle of the body - without the soul, the body is dead; it then begins to decay. Everything that lives has a soul - plants, animals, fish, and people. Human beings have spiritual, rational souls. That’s why our souls can live on after we die, and why we are self-aware.

Sin is something that we are born with because of the fall of Adam in Genesis.

This is Original Sin, which is washed away in baptism. Once we are baptized, we no longer have Original Sin.

Sin is not what we do, it is what we are.

Once Original Sin has been washed away in Baptism, we are no longer enslaved to it. We now have the choice whether or not to commit sin. We can freely choose not to commit sin. Many people do.

There is no person, other than Christ, that has led a sinless life.

This is not true. It may be rare for people to live without sin after baptism, but it’s not completely unheard of.

There were men that were considered “righteous” because of their following of Old Testament law, which was a difficulty that’s for sure. There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament.

Not all of which apply to every person - for example there are many laws that apply only to women, and laws that apply only to priests, or only to husbands, or only to children, etc.

Romans 3:23 says that “All have sinned and fall short of the of the glory of God and Romans 3:10 says, " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” Psalm 14:3 “There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

It’s important to look at the context of these quotations - they are not referring to the whole human race, but only to certain segments - “not one” of those who scoff at God’s laws “doeth good.” By contrast, the obedient are called “righteous.”

We are created in God’s image, but for us to be without sin would mean that we are God.

No, not at all - unless you would say that Adam and Eve were God, before they sinned? I don’t think so, though.

It is sin that separates us from God and why Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. He was a Lamb without blemish.

This is true - but when we partake of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross, and our sins are washed away, we don’t become God. We just become related to God as His children. We still remain human beings, though - even though we are now without sin, because of being in Christ.

 

[po18guy]

Hey, MySavior, would you happen to be the old “bornagainman” by any chance? I was just wondering, based on the timing of his departure and your arrival.

Anyway, how can you possibly hope to understand the ancient church unless you study it independently, and using a neutral or, better yet, a Catholic source?

Since this thread is six posts away from euthanasia, how about beginning another in the proper forum, like apologetics?

Christ’s peace.

 

[Peter_J]

The idea of using inanimate objects in this discussion seems odd.

That example does seem a little strange to me too. But in any case, it’s not essential to the discussion. As jmcrae said, Adam and Eve were created sinless (“Immaculate Creation” if you will) but they were never God. I think I’d be hard-pressed to come up with a better example than that.

Clearly, the real issue is not whether the Immaculate Conception doctrine makes Mary divine (it doesn’t), but whether it is true.