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neweyes
Guest
I think it’s a leap to conclude that she was sinless from that greeting. Are there other scriptures?
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adstrinity
Guest
Genesis 3:15
Revelation 12:13
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jmcrae
Guest
If she was “full of grace,” (meaning, no room for sin) then where did she keep her sin? In her handbag?
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Scientiphic
Guest
Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;If she was “full of grace,” (meaning, no room for sin) then where did she keep her sin? In her handbag?
You think the bible is lying? Or you are mistaken about the issue of ‘full of grace’?
The Bible clearly states that NONE is righteous, which clearly INCLUDES mary. It doesn’t say with the exception of this or that person. Since when is ‘full of grace’ interpreted to mean ‘no sin’ ??? Where is it phrased thus except you and your friends.
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Gamera
Guest
Oh, please. Just because a person doesn’t interpret a verse the same way you do, doesn’t mean he “thinks the Bible is lying.” We believe in Scripture every bit as much as you do. We simply don’t subscribe to your interpretation.
Romans 3:10 quotes from Psalm 14. Read Psalm 14. The “all” is specificaly shown to mean “all evildoers,” (Ps 14:4). It is sinners of whom Psalm 14 says, “There is none that does good, no, not one,” (v. 3). Psalm 14 then goes on to contrast those “all” who have sinned with the “righteous.” “There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” (v 5).
We read Scripture as a whole, not as cut-out phrases like a ransom note. Romans 3:10 contains the words “There is none that does good, no, not one,” but in doing so it quotes from Psalm 14 which specifically shows that NOT every individual person has committed a personal sin, that some people ARE “righteous” (Ps 14:5).
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Scientiphic
Guest
I believe the problem is in identifying what it means to be righteous. The Bible cannot be wrong. If the Bible says your entire family is doomed, I seriously do not believe that you, Gamera will be let off just because you interpret ‘all’ to mean ‘some evil people’ and foolishly excuse yourself.
According to the bible, righteousness has NOTHING to do with sinlessness. See this:
Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Why??? Because ALL are sinners, including Mary. The righteous are deemed righteous by their faith, not because they are sinless. NOBODY is sinless.
Romans 3:23 for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,
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Gamera
Guest
You’ll find 100,000 threads on Romans 3:23 on this site. But to recap — Romans 3:23 means all peoples – both Jew and Gentile — inherit original sin. It does not suggest that every individual person has committed a personal sin. You don’t believe babies have committed personal sin, do you?
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Scientiphic
Guest
I believe babies have original sin. So they too have sinned.
Let’s remember this, when Adam was made, he was without sin and meant to live forever with God, however he sinned and therefore he had to die for it. Sin reaps death. Do babies die??? Yes they do!!!..
So, what makes you think that your baby or anybody else’s for that matter will be like Adam and live forever ???
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Gamera
Guest
Well, wait, which do you claim Romans 3:23 refers to: original sin, or personal sin?
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Scientiphic
Guest
ALL have sin in them. Regardless of man or woman or adult, children or old etc. That’s why we all die and rot away.
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Gamera
Guest
Great. Please answer my question, though. Does Romans 3:23 refer to original sin, or to personal sin? I mean, you certainly don’t think babies are capable of personal sin, right? So if the “all” in Romans 3:23 literally means every person, then it must be referring to original sin, not personal sin. Right?
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Gamera
Guest
Oh, I don’t. Catholics believe in original sin, too. Original sin obviously is what Romans 3:23 refers to. But you seem to think Romans 3:23 refers to personal sin, a position which I find un-Biblical.
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Scientiphic
Guest
There is no such thing as dirtier or dirty. Once you have a blemish you are imperfect…and dirty. You are asking me, are people born dirty or did they make themselves dirty.
Does it matter?
ALL are dirty. Both needs to be washed. And I’m not going to stand here and argue which is dirtier or how it got dirty because God said ALL have sinned.
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Gamera
Guest
Agreed! We all need a Savior. But see, my issue is with you citing Romans 3:23 to support the claim that all have committed personal sin. Romans 3:23 obviously speaks about original sin. I mean, you even asked another poster whether he “though the Bible is lying” because, according to your view, Romans 3:23 says everyone has committed personal sin. But Romans 3:23 says nothing of the kind. It speaks of original sin.
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Scientiphic
Guest
Well, you must have misunderstood, I never meant to quote it to mean just personal sin. I quote it to show that NO ONE IS SINLESS (INCLUDING MARY).
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adstrinity
Guest
Well, wait. If Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned,” does that mean it excludes that nobody sins in the future? I know this doesn’t help with the Mary argument, but, it helps with knowing not all in the future may sin.
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Gamera
Guest
Perhaps I did misunderstand your argument. Let’s both back up.
If you refer to original sin, Catholics agree that Mary, like everybody else, needed to be saved from original sin. We believe Jesus saved Mary from original sin in a unique way (at the moment of conception), but we believe it is Jesus who saved her from original sin. She didn’t save herself. Jesus saved her.
With respect to personal sin, we believe that Mary, like other people in history, committed no personal sin. Biblical examples would include Zechariah and Elizabeth (John the Baptist’s parents) (See Luke 1:6). Like everyone, they still needed a savior to save them from original sin, but they committed no personal sin. Babies also commit no personal sin, yet still need salvation from original sin. So the claim that Mary must have committed a personal sin because Romans 3:23 says “all have sinned” fails, since Romans 3:23 cannot mean that every human being has committed personal sin.
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Scientiphic
Guest
Thanks for the clarification. I have no major issue with the above except for the point that ‘Mary was saved from original sin during conception’. Where is this written that Jesus saved Mary by His earthly birth? Didn’t Jesus save mankind by his death/crucifixion?
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Gamera
Guest
Jesus did indeed save mankind by His death and resurrection. Let’s start by agreeing here, since this is the cornerstone of our Christian faith. Every person who ever will enter heaven, does so by God’s grace, won for us by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, a sacrifice which we never could make. There is salvation by no other name than Jesus.
Jesus was to be born of a human mother. Had He been born of a typical human mother, He would have inherited original sin (or to be more precise, had he been conceived of a typical human mother He would have inherited original sin).
The solution was that at the moment of Mary’s conception (Mary’s conception, not Jesus’ conception) God made Mary free from original sin. The Immaculate Conception was Mary’s conception within her mother Anne’s womb, not Jesus’ conception in Mary’s womb.
The Immaculate Conception gave Mary more, not less, reason to call God her “Savior.” An old analogy is that I can save you from a pit by pulling you out after you fall in, or I can save you from a pit by stopping you from falling into it in the first place. Most people saved from original sin are saved after they’ve contracted it; Mary, because of her unique role in being Jesus’ mother, was saved by being prevented from contracting it.
This is why, when the angel greeted Mary, he called her “full of grace” (kercharitomene). A person who bears the stain of original sin cannot be “full of grace.”
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chworkman05
Guest
I realy like the explanaion this helps in my strugle to understand Mary’s role as I am journing to the Catholic Church.- Status