Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Truthfaithlove
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Scientiphic said:
Facts.

1 - The bible never said to pray to Mary.

2 - The bible says all have sinned and none righteous.

3 - The bible never says you need intercessors to pray to God.

4 - The bible never says Mary was sinless.

5 - The bible never says you must have an earthly leader.

Above are bare facts. You can insist on adding to them and that your tradition dictates so. Or you can insist that God ‘must have’, ótherwise’’ scenarios…ultimately. I am NOT going to assume that God must have done something ÏN ORDER to accomplish something that I again also assume to my own delusion.

That is precisely what we’re arguing here. Catholics making assumptions on behalf of God and then forcing themselves and others to have faith in it. I quoted you scripture to support my stand. But instead of quoting me scripture to support your absurd claims, all you fellas are doing are wasting time talking about why MY stand is wrong when I am taking scripture point blank.

Catholics only ASSUME…and they teach each other to assume as well. That’s why many say “I was taught this…or that…”. But how many of you can quote me BIBLICAL scripture to show me that I am wrong? NONE.
Click to expand...
What? I have quoted you Scripture after Scripture after Scripture. AGAIN, here they are.

Mary as the mother of God – Luke 1:43

NOT all have committed personal sin – Luke 1:6

Mary is sinless – Luke 1:23

Mary is our mother – Rev 12:17

“None is rightous” does not mean nobody on earth, but refers only to sinners – Ps 14:3-5

I’ve also showed you over and over that your misuse of “none is rightous” from Psalm 14:3 refers to none OF THE SINNERS, who then are contrasted with the “righteous” two verse later in verse 5. This suggests that it is you who cannot back up your position FROM THE BIBLE.

Nobody in this thread – nobody – has simply said “that’s just what I was taught.” You are projecting some preconceived image of Catholics onto us, that we just don’t know why we believe what we believe. We have proven our case to you FROM THE BIBLE.
 
Scientiphic said:
Facts.

1 - The bible never said to pray to Mary.
Click to expand...
The Bible never says to follow only the Bible, either. The Bible shows us that we should ask others to pray for us.
Scientiphic said:
2 - The bible says all have sinned and none righteous.
Click to expand...
Lie. That is not what the Bible says. That is your paraphrase of two separate parts of verses. No verse says “all ahve sinned and none are righteous.” I have shown you from the Bible that BOTH lines, “all have sinned” and “none are rightous” do NOT and CANNOT mean what you want them to.
Scientiphic said:
3 - The bible never says you need intercessors to pray to God.
Click to expand...
And neither does the Catholic Church.

We do not NEED others to pray for us. That doesn’t mean we can’t have them. Should i eat only the bare minimum amount of food needed to survive? Or am I allowed to have more than what I “need”?
Scientiphic said:
4 - The bible never says Mary was sinless.
Click to expand...
Lie. Luke 1:23
Scientiphic said:
5 - The bible never says you must have an earthly leader.
Click to expand...
Lie. Matt 16:18
 
Gamera said:
What? I have quoted you Scripture after Scripture after Scripture. AGAIN, here they are.

Mary as the mother of God – Luke 1:43

NOT all have committed personal sin – Luke 1:6

Mary is sinless – Luke 1:23

Mary is our mother – Rev 12:17

“None is rightous” does not mean nobody on earth, but refers only to sinners – Ps 14:3-5

I’ve also showed you over and over that your misuse of “none is rightous” from Psalm 14:3 refers to none OF THE SINNERS, who then are contrasted with the “righteous” two verse later in verse 5. This suggests that it is you who cannot back up your position FROM THE BIBLE.

Nobody in this thread – nobody – has simply said “that’s just what I was taught.” You are projecting some preconceived image of Catholics onto us, that we just don’t know why we believe what we believe. We have proven our case to you FROM THE BIBLE.
Click to expand...
Please THINK before you type. Jesus said “before Abraham was, I am”. When was Mary born??? How can Mary then be the mother of Jesus?

The phrase ‘mother of god’ is merely a reference because Jesus came THROUGH mary.

The other quotes you gave are irrelevant and does not show you are right.

’‘I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END’’ - GOD.
 
Scientiphic said:
Please think before you type.
Click to expand...
That is mean-spirited and offensive.
Scientiphic said:
Jesus said “before Abraham was, I am”. When was Mary born??? How can Mary then be the mother of Jesus?

The phrase ‘mother of god’ is merely a reference because Jesus came THROUGH mary.
Click to expand...
That’s what a mother is!!!

“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus and gave birth to Him. She is therefore His mother. Motherhood does not imply creation, but conception, gestation and birth.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd!

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God.
 
“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus - WRONG. JESUS WAS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY GHOST. MARY DID NOT SLEEP WITH ANY MAN SO HOW COULD SHE HAVE CONCEIVED? SHE IS AT BEST A SURROGATE MOTHER, AND I DON’T MEANT THAT TO BE DISRESPECTFUL.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd! - THAT’S WHY YOU’RE JUST A MAN AND NOT GOD.

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb. - THESE 2 ARE SEPARATE. DON’T JOIN 2 CONCEPTS INTO 1 AND THEN ATTEMPT TO ACCUSE OTHERS OF HERESY. JESUS IS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN. BUT MARY IS NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT. THESE 2 ARE NOT JOINED.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God. - YOU’RE MISTAKEN. THE SPIRIT IN JESUS (WHICH IS GOD) DID NOT COME FROM MARY.
 
Scientiphic said:
“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus - WRONG. JESUS WAS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY GHOST.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd! - THAT’S WHY YOU’RE JUST A MAN AND NOT GOD.

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb. - THESE 2 ARE SEPARATE. DON’T JOIN 2 CONCEPTS INTO 1. JESUS IS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN. BUT MARY IS NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT. THESE 2 ARE NOT JOINED.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God.YOU’RE MISTAKEN. THE SPIRIT IN JESUS (WHICH IS GOD) DID NOT COME FROM MARY.
Click to expand...
Are you under the impression that Jesus wasn’t Mary’s biological offspring? Sounds like gnosticism to me.

Do you understand that Mary doesn’t need to be “older than God” to be the mother of God? She gave birth to Jesus, Jesus is God, therefore she is the mother of God. It has nothing to do with creating God or being older than God. Do you deny that God passed though her womb? Yes or no?
 
Gamera said:
Are you under the impression that Jesus wasn’t Mary’s biological offspring? Sounds like gnosticism to me.

Do you understand that Mary doesn’t need to be “older than God” to be the mother of God? She gave birth to Jesus, Jesus is God, therefore she is the mother of God. It has nothing to do with creating God or being older than God. Do you deny that God passed though her womb? Yes or no?
Click to expand...
The word is THROUGH. Yes.

Just because I walk through your house doesn’t make me your tenant.
 
Scientiphic said:
The word is THROUGH. Yes.

Just because I walk through your house doesn’t make me your tenant.
Click to expand...
Right! Okay, good. You agree that God passed through Mary’s womb. That makes Mary the mother of God. It doesn’t mean Mary created God. It just means she gave birth to God. Just like Elizabeth said, she is the “mother of my Lord,” Luke 1:43.
 
Scientiphic said:
“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus - WRONG. JESUS WAS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY GHOST. MARY DID NOT SLEEP WITH ANY MAN SO HOW COULD SHE HAVE CONCEIVED? SHE IS AT BEST A SURROGATE MOTHER, AND I DON’T MEANT THAT TO BE DISRESPECTFUL.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd! - THAT’S WHY YOU’RE JUST A MAN AND NOT GOD.

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb. - THESE 2 ARE SEPARATE. DON’T JOIN 2 CONCEPTS INTO 1 AND THEN ATTEMPT TO ACCUSE OTHERS OF HERESY. JESUS IS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN. BUT MARY IS NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT. THESE 2 ARE NOT JOINED.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God.
Click to expand...
  • YOU’RE MISTAKEN. THE SPIRIT IN JESUS (WHICH IS GOD) DID NOT COME FROM MARY.
What did Elizabeth mean when she said, “Mother of my Lord”?
 
Gamera said:
Right! Okay, good. You agree that God passed through Mary’s womb. That makes Mary the mother of God. It doesn’t mean Mary created God. It just means she gave birth to God. Just like Elizabeth said, she is the “mother of my Lord,” Luke 1:43.
Click to expand...
That’s exactly what I"m saying…you’re trying to collect RENTAL.
 
jam070406 said:
  • YOU’RE MISTAKEN. THE SPIRIT IN JESUS (WHICH IS GOD) DID NOT COME FROM MARY.
Click to expand...
What did Elizabeth mean when she said, “Mother of my Lord”?

That phrase is merely a reference..

If God had a mother, He wouldn’t be known as the Alpha & Omega.
 
Gamera said:
I think that’s the operative question. He seems to assume that Jesus just appeared in Mary’s womb without any of her genetic material being involved.
Click to expand...
These are the sort of strange notions that come when people pick up a bible and interpret it themselves.
 
Scientiphic said:
Catholics only ASSUME…and they teach each other to assume as well. That’s why many say “I was taught this…or that…”. But how many of you can quote me BIBLICAL scripture to show me that I am wrong? NONE.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry but I must empahsize that this is really insulting. Perhaps you don’t realize how insulting. I cherish God’s word. I read God’s word carefully. I study God’s word to learn it better every day. I do not “just assume” anything, nor have I ever answered an apologetics question with a shrugging “I was taught this or that.” And yes, I have quoted you BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE to illustrate the Catholic position on each point you’ve raised. I don’t appreciate being labeled or stereotyped with quips like “Catholics only ASSUME.”
 
Scientiphic said:
What did Elizabeth mean when she said, “Mother of my Lord”?

That phrase is merely a reference..
Click to expand...
Yeah, a reference to Mary being the mother of the Lord!
Scientiphic said:
If God had a mother, He wouldn’t be known as the Alpha & Omega.
Click to expand...
But you just admitted that God passed through Mary’s womb. That makes Mary God’s mother. How does God’s status as the Alpha and the Omega figure in? Nobody claims that Mary predates God.

I mean, this is silly. Of course God had a mother, once he became man. Do you deny that Mary was Jesus’ mother? Do you deny that Jesus is God? Then Mary is the mother of God.
 
Scientiphic said:
**
God is a Spirit.**
Click to expand...
Yes, we know that.

The greatest danger of all…is to embrace sola scriptura as the be all to end all. Since the Canon of the Bible was established by the Catholic Church, its rather disingenuous to make claims about the Bible being the only source for belief. That other writings of the Early Church Fathers were not included in the Canon…is not sufficient grounds to discount those writings. None whatsoever.

Interestingly enough, the Bible that you most likely use is an incomplete one, missing the Apocrypha…so its rather difficult for you to say that the Bible contains all, when you aren’t using a Bible that contains all…

By the way…to say that Mary is not the Mother of God is simply a misbegotten ploy that some people have embraced…to discount a very firm reality.

Consider this: With God all things are possible.

True or False.

If True, then God chose not only chose Mary but also created her for the specific purpose of being Christ’s mother on earth.

If False, then that claim of falsehood denies that all things are possible with God, and begs the question if one says still “True”, all things are possible with God…Why then did God not create or deliver Christ to earth in the same fashion that He did with Adam?

He could have, right? But He didn’t, and that we know for a fact.
Ergo, your disbelief is your failure and problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top