Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[rinnie]

Scientiphic You said the bible does not say we need intercession. Okay I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt do you know what intercession is., It means to pray for someone. Now Do you not have I hate to keep repeating myself, but the Book of Job in your bible. Please go to Job 42: 7-10 and come back and tell me what that says.

 

[rinnie]

God is not a Spirit. God is the Holy Spirt, God is the 3 Persons, again we told you all of this.

 

[rinnie]

What did Elizabeth mean when she said, “Mother of my Lord”?

That phrase is merely a reference..

If God had a mother, He wouldn’t be known as the Alpha & Omega.

Okay I will give you that, but only half, he may not have had a Mother when he was the Alpha, But he sure as heck got her with the Omega.

Another wards he may not have had her in the beginning but he got her now in the end. She is sitting with him right now in heaven. She is the Queen. Which she rightly deserves.

 

[Peter_J]

Man, this thread took a nose-dive! The repetition of “Lie.” was bad enough; now it seems like people just trying to shout each other down.

Hard to know where to begin. I think I will limit myself to responding to something Scientiphic said yesterday which caught my attention:

You just said anybody could call their community a church, so what’s to prove that yours is THE church?

I think “prove” is kind of a strong word to use here. In particular, I think there’s a lot of evidence that the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church, and I also think there’s a lot of evidence that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the One True Church.

I, for one, find that the Roman Catholic Church has the stronger case, so I believe it to be the One True Church; but I can also sympathize (without triumphalism, I hope) with EOs who believe they have the stronger case.

Point is, you can claim this or that…ultimately the only standard we have today is the Holy Bible.

Alrightee, how do you prove that?

 

[janw]

I can’t help to wonder why anyone who does not believe the RCC is the true church and will not accept all that is taught by the RCC would take a book that the RCC compiled and try to use it to prove the Roman Catholic Church is wrong in its interpretation of that same book - The Bible.

The RCC chose which writings should be in the Bible under the guidence of the Holy Spirit and some believe that, but refuse to believe all other teachings of the SAME Church.

Seems really strange to me. If I am to trust in the words of the Bible, I think I would trust in the Church that put that Bible together.

Growing up in a protestant church and attending many adult years, no one ever mentioned to me that the Catholic Church gave us our Bible. I guess they had their reasons.

Alot of folks who go through live being taught and accepting certian teachings. just can’t let go even when they are told the Truth;

Sometimes you can only pray for these people.

 

[placido]

What did Elizabeth mean when she said, “Mother of my Lord”?

That phrase is merely a reference..

If God had a mother, He wouldn’t be known as the Alpha & Omega.

Please do sit down, calm down and try to see the difference between these two words: 1. mother; 2. creator.

 

[placido]

Post #180 – Scientiphic: “Nobody can deny that Christ was born.”

Post # 203 – Scientiphic: “How can Mary then be the mother of Jesus?”

That, my brother (or sister), is self-destruction. You are denying that what you said nobody can deny.

 

[Good_Fella]

**
God is a Spirit.**

Who forgave the paralytic and the woman caught in adultery their sins? Was it a spirit?

 

[GailMac]

Dear Truthfaithlove - you state:"Since the Bible is God’s word, I rely ONLY on it. The opinions of others, they can keep to themselves.

Correction, I don’t interpret, I take God’s word as it is.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned—" And use this knowlege of God’s word to do what? Excuse yourself from His Church?

St. Paul was writing a letter to St. Timothy about the state he found the dispersered Jews In Rome at that time. And you want to stretch his words to try and claim he was saying nasty things about God’s mother?

Peace,

Gail

 

[SimonArizona]

Dear Truthfaithlove - you state:"Since the Bible is God’s word, I rely ONLY on it. The opinions of others, they can keep to themselves.

That sounds exactly like me years ago. I used to say that exact thing to my dad, and he changed my life with one response…"Whose interpretation of the Bible are you following son?"

Truthfaithlove should take care not to keep asking questions if he doesn’t plan on going to mass soon:thumbsup:

 

[jmcrae]

Besides the case of the water-to-wine miracle where Jesus said to mary ‘What has this concern of yours to do with me, woman?’

The word translated “woman” there is the name that Adam gave to Eve, from, “I will call her Woman, for she is the mother of all the living.” A better translation (though still inadequate to the honour being given her) would be “My Lady.”

We also see in Luke 2 when Mary and Joseph lost sight of Jesus and later found Jesus and Jesus replied them…

Luke 2: 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Lack of understanding is not a sin.

Yes, they did not understand. Clearly, whatever that Jesus was doing was for God, and Mary had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. She did not understand.

Repeatedly, we see Mary calling herself a humble servant/slave of God.

Yes, she’s a servant. She’s not a snivelling “Igor”-like character though, or a “Smedley” type, or some sort of foul-speaking Cockney wench.

She’s the woman of Proverbs 31 - wise, industrious, and thoughtful.

• It is exceedingly clear that Mary sees herself as nothing more than a servant of God. Mary is not sinless.

Non-sequiter. (Does not follow.) Service to God isn’t a sin - in fact, it’s the only way to become holy!

By saying she is sinless, the entire concept of salvation becomes flawed.

Again - Mary did not make herself sinless. Jesus made her sinless, so that she could become His mother.

 

[M0nkey]

"Whose interpretation of the Bible are you following son?"

Well said brother!

 

[Scientiphic]

We’ll be getting nowhere with this if we keep arguing about whether Mary was the mother.

Of course Mary was the mother…of…Jesus!

Now, is Jesus God?..again…YES. Jesus is God.

But does that mean Mary is therefore the mother of God. NO.

Firstly, like I already said, God is the Alpha & Omega, therefore He cannot possibly have a mother. Secondly, God created Mary, NOT Mary created God. Finally, God coming as a man through Mary does not make her His mother, she merely serves as a vessel, an entrance point. Just like me walking through your house doesn’t make me your tenant!

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

Let’s put it this way. The flesh is like a deflated balloon. God is Helium. Now, if you have been invited to produce the balloon in you and God says He will put Helium in it (ie God’s spirit), does that mean that when the balloon appears with the Helium in it you are therefore the mother of Helium (ie God) ??? Of course not.

Get it??? Again, see John 6:63 above. The flesh COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

GOD IS A SPIRIT.

The bible very clearly said that God is a spirit. Not to mention, the bible already said that none is righteous and none good, so there’s absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.

.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

We’ll be getting nowhere with this if we keep arguing about whether Mary was the mother.

Of course Mary was the mother…of…Jesus!

Now, is Jesus God?..again…YES. Jesus is God.

But does that mean Mary is therefore the mother of God. NO.

Firstly, like I already said, God is the Alpha & Omega, therefore He cannot possibly have a mother. Secondly, God created Mary, NOT Mary created God. Finally, God coming as a man through Mary does not make her His mother, she merely serves as a vessel, an entrance point. Just like me walking through your house doesn’t make me your tenant!

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

Let’s put it this way. The flesh is like a deflated balloon. God is Helium. Now, if you have been invited to produce the balloon in you and God says He will put Helium in it (ie God’s spirit), does that mean that when the balloon appears with the Helium in it you are therefore the mother of Helium (ie God) ??? Of course not.

Get it??? Again, see John 6:63 above. The flesh COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

GOD IS A SPIRIT.

The bible very clearly said that God is a spirit. Not to mention, the bible already said that none is righteous and none good, so there’s absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.

.

God was able to choose his own mother.

 

[Gamera]

Scientiphic, I can only repeat it again. “Mother” doesn’t mean “creator.” Catholics agree that Mary didn’t create God. Of course not! But she gave birth to God — that is the central truth of the Incarnation, that God became a man, like us in all things but sin. A mother doesn’t give birth just to the child’s body. A mother gives birth to the whole child – body, mind, spirit, soul. That doesn’t mean the mother “created” the child’s spirit. It means she gave birth to the whole person, not just his body.

My mother gave birth to all of me – body, soul, spirit. That doesn’t mean she “created” my spirit. Of course not! But my spirit didn’t join my body at some time after I was born. My spirit was in my body from the moment of conception.

Your theory seems to be that God’s spirit didn’t pass through Mary’s womb, that only Jesus’ physical body, not His spirit, passed through her womb. That would mean His spirit joined His body at some time later than birth. Denying that Mary is the mother of God destroys Christology.

All Marian doctrines are about Jesus, not Mary. For instance, without the Immaculate Conception, Jesus would have inherited original sin. Without Mary being God’s Mother, there would be no Incarnation. It’s all about Who Jesus is.

 

[Gamera]

The bible very clearly said that God is a spirit. Not to mention, the bible already said that none is righteous and none good, so there’s absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.

.

The Bible very clearly says that some people ARE righteous.

“They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt, there is none that does good, no, not one. Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord? There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” Psalm 14:3-5.

You keep editing away all but the phrase “there is none that does good,” but that phrase refers only to the “evildoers” whom the Psalmist contrasts to the “righteous!” The very psalm from which you quote plainly states that some people are righteous!

 

[Scientiphic]

The Bible very clearly says that some people ARE righteous.

“They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt, there is none that does good, no, not one. Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord? There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” Psalm 14:3-5.

You keep editing away all but the phrase “there is none that does good,” but that phrase refers only to the “evildoers” whom the Psalmist contrasts to the “righteous!” The very psalm from which you quote plainly states that some people are righteous!

I did not edit it away. Its because you fail to understand what it means by righteous. The bible clearly stated NONE good and NONE righteous, ALL have sinned. So, you should be asking WHY then is some said to be righteous in the bible, NOT claim that the Bible is wrong when it also says some are righteous because the bible does not contradict itself.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The verse in Romans 4:5 explains very clearly. If we combine the 2 statements together, we will know that NO MAN is righteous and NONE good, ALL have sinned…HOWEVER…some are deemed righteous by VIRTUE OF THEIR FAITH.

This is why you see the words ‘righteous’. It tells you very clearly that its their faith that makes them righteous. By themselves NONE of these peoplare righteous, NONE good and ALL sinned.

.

 

[Gamera]

I did not edit it away. Its because you fail to understand what it means by righteous. The bible clearly stated NONE good and NONE righteous, ALL have sinned. So, you should be asking WHY then is some said to be righteous in the bible, NOT claim that the Bible is wrong when it also says some are righteous because the bible does not contradict itself.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The verse in Romans 4:5 explains very clearly. If we combine the 2 statements together, we will know that NO MAN is righteous and NONE good, ALL have sinned…HOWEVER…some are deemed righteous by VIRTUE OF THEIR FAITH.

This is why you see the words ‘righteous’. It tells you very clearly that its their faith that makes them righteous. By themselves NONE of these peoplare righteous, NONE good and ALL sinned.

.

Sir, I never claimed the Bible is wrong. I claimed you are wrong. Please do not put words in my mouth, and I will show you the same courtesy. You and I agree that the Bible does not contradict itself. You and I agree that the Bible cannot be wrong. Please don’t resort to questioning my faith in Scripture just because I question your interpretation.

Where does Psalm 14 say that the rightous are “deemed righteous by virtue of their faith”? Which verse of Psalm 14 are you referring to? What do you mean “deemed?” Are they really righteous, or is God just pretending they are righteous when they really aren’t?

With reference to “all have sinned” you conceded pages back that it refers to Original Sin, not to personal sin.

 

[Gamera]

I just noticed this, and it’d be too confusing to edit my last post, so here:

… NO MAN is righteous and NONE good, ALL have sinned…HOWEVER…some are deemed righteous by VIRTUE OF THEIR FAITH.

… It tells you very clearly that its their faith that makes them righteous. .

Which is it? Does their faith make them rightous? Or are they simply “deemed” righteous even though they really aren’t? If you say they are “made” righteous, then good, you agree with Catholicism on that point. Many Protestants believe faith just gives us a legal declaration of righteousness, as if our sin remained but God simply ignored it.

 

[Scientiphic]

Sir, I never claimed the Bible is wrong. I claimed you are wrong. Please do not put words in my mouth, and I will show you the same courtesy. You and I agree that the Bible does not contradict itself. You and I agree that the Bible cannot be wrong. Please don’t resort to questioning my faith in Scripture just because I question your interpretation.

Where does Psalm 14 say that the rightous are “deemed righteous by virtue of their faith”? Which verse of Psalm 14 are you referring to? What do you mean “deemed?” Are they really righteous, or is God just pretending they are righteous when they really aren’t?

In order not to conflict with what you claim here, you must FIRST agree with God that NONE are righteous and NONE good and then proceed to explain how some could be ‘righteous’. NOT claiming first that since some are righteous therefore God is wrong in saying NONE are righteous.

We don’t look at ‘exceptions’ and then claim God is wrong. We look at what God says FIRST, and then ask why are there ‘exceptions’ and how these came about.