Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[rinnie]

Remember that some non-Catholics simply don’t realize that Catholics see Mary as our own mother. They don’t understand that critiquing a prayer to Mary is no different from critiquing someone’s Mother’s Day card to their biological mother.

I understand that, But if they can’t have respect for us, and our love for her. They should at least have respect for her being the Mother of Christ and have respect for that. But I am going to drop it now, I don’t want to make a big deal out of it. But I have read terrible things on this thread, and I am no saint either. But that took the cake. But I have to be Christ like and forgive, but that sure hurt.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
I don’t know. All we have today are the written Scriptures. The “oral Scriptures” no longer exist unless we now call them the written Scriptures. Correct?

Gamera
Incorrect. We still possess the Apostlolic Tradition (the preaching of Christ and the Apostles). The Apostles’ preaching wasn’t lost to the ages – it was preserved in the Catholic Church. This is made possible by the Holy Spirit, Who serves as the living memory of the Church. “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you,” John 14:26.

What “Apostlolic Tradition -Apostles’ preaching” do you possess that is not in the NT? Can you give me a couple of examples of something that the apostles wrote or taught not in the NT?

 

[Gamera]

What “Apostlolic Tradition -Apostles’ preaching” do you possess that is not in the NT? Can you give me a couple of examples of something that the apostles wrote or taught not in the NT?

Sure.

The Canon of the New Testament (the list of which New Testament writings constitute Scripture).

Mark’s authorship of his Gospel (the document itself does not identify its author).

The fact that the John who had a revelation at Patmos was the same John as John the Evangelist.

 

[justasking4]

Gamera;4352768]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What “Apostlolic Tradition -Apostles’ preaching” do you possess that is not in the NT? Can you give me a couple of examples of something that the apostles wrote or taught not in the NT?

Gamera
Sure.

The Canon of the New Testament (the list of which New Testament writings constitute Scripture).

Mark’s authorship of his Gospel (the document itself does not identify its author).

The fact that the John who had a revelation at Patmos was the same John as John the Evangelist.

What about some preaching examples of the Apostles not recorded in the NT?

 

[Gamera]

What about some preaching examples of the Apostles not recorded in the NT?

All have at least some reference in the New Testament, but if you mean teachings not spelled out plainly, they would include:

The Trinity
The Hypostatic Union
Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Mary’s Assumption

 

[justasking4]

All have at least some reference in the New Testament, but if you mean teachings not spelled out plainly, they would include:

The Trinity
The Hypostatic Union
Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Mary’s Assumption

The apostles never spoke of these things. Correct?

 

[Gamera]

The apostles never spoke of these things. Correct?

Incorrect. Each is part of the Apostles’ preaching, which Catholics call Apostolic Tradition (spelled with a capitol “T” to distinguish it from mere human tradition). The Apostles’ preaching constituted God’s word, not man’s word (1 Thes 2:13) so to say that the Apostles’ oral preaching got lost to history is to say that part of God’s word got lost to history. Catholics don’t believe that is possible.

 

[justasking4]

Incorrect. Each is part of the Apostles’ preaching, which Catholics call Apostolic Tradition (spelled with a capitol “T” to distinguish it from mere human tradition). The Apostles’ preaching constituted God’s word, not man’s word (1 Thes 2:13) so to say that the Apostles’ oral preaching got lost to history is to say that part of God’s word got lost to history. Catholics don’t believe that is possible.

So what you are saying is that there are doctrines that are derived from the Apostles teachings that are found only in the NT. The idea that there is some “oral teaching” of the apostles outside the NT does not exist today. Correct?

 

[Gamera]

So what you are saying is that there are doctrines that are derived from the Apostles teachings that are found only in the NT. The idea that there is some “oral teaching” of the apostles outside the NT does not exist today. Correct?

No, what Catholics (and Orthodox) believe is that “God’s word” consists of two things: (1) Scripture, and (2) the preaching of Christ and the Apostles, commonly called Apostolic Tradition. We reject the Protestant idea of sola scriptura (“only Scripture”) because that would mean discarding part of God’s revelation – namely, the Apostolic Tradition, which is the word of God (1 Thes 2:13). To us, ignoring any part of the Apostolic Tradition would be no different from ignoring one of the books of the New Testament. It’s something we cannot do because we lack the authority to edit God’s word.

All Catholic doctrine is derived from God’s word (Scripture and Apostolic Tradition).

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
So what you are saying is that there are doctrines that are derived from the Apostles teachings that are found only in the NT. The idea that there is some “oral teaching” of the apostles outside the NT does not exist today. Correct?

Gamera
No, what Catholics (and Orthodox) believe is that “God’s word” consists of two things: (1) Scripture, and (2) the preaching of Christ and the Apostles, commonly called Apostolic Tradition. We reject the Protestant idea of sola scriptura (“only Scripture”) because that would mean discarding part of God’s revelation – namely, the Apostolic Tradition, which is the word of God (1 Thes 2:13). To us, ignoring any part of the Apostolic Tradition would be no different from ignoring one of the books of the New Testament. It’s something we cannot do because we lack the authority to edit God’s word.

This Apostolic Tradition does not exist as an independent body of work that is separate from the written Scriptures themselves. Correct?
If not correct then what are some examples of this “Apostolic Tradition” that the apostles themselves wrote that is not in the Scriptures?

 

[Gamera]

This Apostolic Tradition does not exist as an independent body of work that is separate from the written Scriptures themselves. Correct?
If not correct then what are some examples of this “Apostolic Tradition” that the apostles themselves wrote that is not in the Scriptures?

Apostolic Tradition and Scripture have a tremendous overlap. For instance, the Sermon on the Mount is described in both, Jesus’ trial and crucifixion is described in both, the resurrection is described in both … you get the idea. But no, Apostolic Tradition is not limited to the content of Scripture. Apostolic Tradition includes everything preached by Jesus and the Apostles.

Examples of Apostolic Tradition which are totally absent from Scripture include Mark’s authorship of his Gospel, the identity of John the Evangelist as the same John who wrote the Revelation of John at Patmos, and the Apostles’ Creed.

Examples of Apostolic Tradition which aren’t spelled out clearly in Scripture, although arguably reflected in Scripture, include the nature of the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and Mary’s assumption.

Both Scripture and Apostolic Tradition stopped being generated upon the death of the last Apostle. Nothing new can be added to God’s word (what we sometimes call the “deposit of faith”). Teachings like Mary’s Assumption are “capital T” Traditions, taught by the Apostles and part of God’s word, whereas devotions like the rosary or practices like priestly celibacy are just “small t” traditions, manmade practices, not part of the deposit of faith. The difference between Tradition and tradition is very important to Catholics and Orthodox, because “capital T” Tradition is God-given and unalterable whereas “small t” tradition is man-made and we’re free to change it whenever we want.

 

[jmcrae]

The apostles never spoke of these things. Correct?

Yes, they did. St. Thomas, for example, witnessed the Assumption of Mary, and told the other Apostles, who didn’t believe it until they saw her empty tomb.

The earliest form of the Creed doesn’t mention the word Trinity specifically, but it certainly acknowledges the Personhood and Divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

This Apostolic Tradition does not exist as an independent body of work that is separate from the written Scriptures themselves. Correct?

The Holy Tradition isn’t something separate from the Scriptures - it’s an entire body of teachings, hymns, rituals, writings, etc., that includes the Scriptures.

If not correct then what are some examples of this “Apostolic Tradition” that the apostles themselves wrote that is not in the Scriptures?

Examples of Apostolic writings that didn’t make it into the Bible include the Letter of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, and the “zeroeth” letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians, and the Didache.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;4354024]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This Apostolic Tradition does not exist as an independent body of work that is separate from the written Scriptures themselves. Correct?

jmcrae
The Holy Tradition isn’t something separate from the Scriptures - it’s an entire body of teachings, hymns, rituals, writings, etc., that includes the Scriptures.

If this is the case this would mean there are things in the Holy Traditions that would not be of the Apostles since we have no record of any hymns they wrote.

justasking4
If not correct then what are some examples of this “Apostolic Tradition” that the apostles themselves wrote that is not in the Scriptures?

jmcrae
Examples of Apostolic writings that didn’t make it into the Bible include the Letter of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, and the “zeroeth” letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians, and the Didache.

i would agree that there was much more to what the Lord Jesus and His apostles wrote and said. The problem is we don’t know today exactly what this was and is of no value since we don’t have access to it.

 

[Gamera]

…and the Didache.

Which includes another example of Apostolic Tradition that I just thought of: baptism by pouring as an alternative to immersion.

 

[Gamera]

If this is the case this would mean there are things in the Holy Traditions that would not be of the Apostles since we have no record of any hymns they wrote.

i would agree that there was much more to what the Lord Jesus and His apostles wrote and said. The problem is we don’t know today exactly what this was and is of no value since we don’t have access to it.

That’s tantamount to saying that part of God’s word has been forgotten. God’s word can never be forgotten. “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever,” Is. 40:8. Nor can God’s word return to Him empty. “…so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I intend, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it,” Is. 55:11.

The Holy Spirit serves as the living memory of the Church. “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you,” John 14:26.

Christ said and did many things not recorded in the Bible. “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written,” John 21:25. Yet none of Christ’s teaching can ever be forgotten because the Holy Spirit serves as the Church’s memory.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter,” 2 Thes 2:15.

 

[jmcrae]

If this is the case this would mean there are things in the Holy Traditions that would not be of the Apostles since we have no record of any hymns they wrote.

Who is this “we” you speak of? “We” the Catholic Church have plenty of hymns and poetry that are attributed to the Apostles and their followers.

I would agree that there was much more to what the Lord Jesus and His apostles wrote and said. The problem is we don’t know today exactly what this was and is of no value since we don’t have access to it.

Again, who is this “we” that doesn’t have access? I have access to it.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;4354207]
Originally Posted by justasking4
If this is the case this would mean there are things in the Holy Traditions that would not be of the Apostles since we have no record of any hymns they wrote.

jmcrae
Who is this “we” you speak of? “We” the Catholic Church have plenty of hymns and poetry that are attributed to the Apostles and their followers.

The we is you and me and everyone else who claims this or is interested. I know of no Prostentant church that would make this claim. Now, what specific hymn are you referring to that an apostle wrote that is not in Scripture?

Quote:justasking4
I would agree that there was much more to what the Lord Jesus and His apostles wrote and said. The problem is we don’t know today exactly what this was and is of no value since we don’t have access to it.

jmcrae
Again, who is this “we” that doesn’t have access? I have access to it.

Lets see how good your access is. Can you produce for me an example of a teaching of the Lord Jesus that is not recorded in the Scriptures?

 

[Gamera]

Lets see how good your access is. Can you produce for me an example of a teaching of the Lord Jesus that is not recorded in the Scriptures?

It doesn’t have to be a teaching of the Lord Jesus. It has to be a teaching of the Lord Jesus or the Apostles.

I provided several examples above – again, the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, baptism by pouring, Mark’s Gospel authorship, the New Testament Canon, and Mary’s Assumption.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by jmcrae
…and the Didache.

Gamera
Which includes another example of Apostolic Tradition that I just thought of: baptism by pouring as an alternative to immersion.

Here is a quote from an article on it–“The Didache claims to have been authored by the twelve apostles. While this is unlikely, the work could be a direct result of the first Apostolic Council, c.50 C.E. (Acts 15:28).”

You can find the article here: reluctant-messenger.com/didache.htm