Can my parish's musicians play Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, or Megadeth as liturgical music for Mass?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lepanto
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Some say that “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” and that “there are no standards of what’s appropriate” in liturgical music. And besides, Vatican II’s document Sacrosanctum Concilium (article 116) says that non-Gregorian Chant forms of music in “accord with the spirit of the liturgical action” can be used:

  1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.​

So, assuming that the lyrics are not anti-Christian, can my parish’s musicians play Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, or Megadeth as liturgical music for Mass?

If not, why not?
My only question is why you’d want to play Iron Maiden or Twisted Sister outside Church? Sure, they had the originality and talent of Jimi Hendrix, without his originality or talent. Sure, they sound good if you’re at lame frat party and really drunk and tone deaf. But that’s beside the point.

And I full on expect some great rebuttal about how these guys are misunderstood geniuses. Yeah, that’s right - misunderstood. Still, can you blame me for criticizing a man with the wit and clarity of thought to produce “You have to fight for your right to party.” Perhaps we should give Twisted Sister the Sheryl Crow award for Writing Lyrics that Kill Brain Cells?
 
It was “Iron Butterfly” and the song is called “Inna Godda Davida”
And I’ve got it on my iTunes even now (the long version, natch). Just for those who have decided I’m a stick in the mud for trying to think with the mind of the Church regarding liturgical music.
 
And I’ve got it on my iTunes even now (the long version, natch). Just for those who have decided I’m a stick in the mud for trying to think with the mind of the Church regarding liturgical music.
I have that CD and it’s one of the songs I remember fondly from my time in high school. I’m quite able to separate what I like to listen to as I drive from what I know is proper for Mass.
 
Sure, why not? May as well get them to play Stairway to Heaven for an entrance hymn, and then they can all kiss and hug and sing the Barney song at communion. Sounds reasonable. And for the final song, Bon Jovi’s “You Can’t go Home” would be a good fit. It just might encourage some to stay a while and pray.
No no no…If you’re going to play Bon Jovi, it has to be “Keep the Faith.” And you play it to introduce the Credo.

-ACEGC
 
My only question is why you’d want to play Iron Maiden or Twisted Sister outside Church? Sure, they had the originality and talent of Jimi Hendrix, without his originality or talent. Sure, they sound good if you’re at lame frat party and really drunk and tone deaf. But that’s beside the point.

And I full on expect some great rebuttal about how these guys are misunderstood geniuses. Yeah, that’s right - misunderstood. Still, can you blame me for criticizing a man with the wit and clarity of thought to produce “You have to fight for your right to party.” Perhaps we should give Twisted Sister the Sheryl Crow award for Writing Lyrics that Kill Brain Cells?
I won’t say they are misunderstood geniuses. However I should point out that Bruce Dickinson of IM has a masters in English from Oxford and IM’s lyrical subjects are a notable departure from the usual sex, drugs and hedonism of the genre. So, they aren’t genuises, but they are not r-tards either. I know an English prof who is also is an Opus Dei member who enjoys Iron Maiden.

As far as “Fight for your right to party” I believe you are thinking of the Beastie Boys and not Twisted Sister. TS’s claim to fame was “We’re not Gonna Take it” which is just a silly (but fun) metal anthem.

Btw, I have a BA in music. I have sung in All-state Chorus and in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra’s Choir under David Zinman, so I don’t think anyone would consider me tone deaf. I suppose one could say I have bad taste, but I don’t think so as I acknowledge the superiority of classical music to low-culture music of rock et al, but I can still enjoy the low culture stuff at appropriate times and places. And Mass ain’t the right time and place; even if the lyrics were made Christian. This is why sentimental slop praise/ccm doesn’t belong in liturgy either–it’s trivializing. In fact, I’ll bet I am even more stodgy than most in that regard because if it were up to me, there would be no music after approx. William Byrd in the Mass.
 
I won’t say they are misunderstood geniuses. However I should point out that Bruce Dickinson of IM has a masters in English from Oxford and IM’s lyrical subjects are a notable departure from the usual sex, drugs and nihilsm of the genre. So, they aren’t genuises, but they are not r-tards either…
I don’t know. I’ve known many idiots with Masters Degrees.
As far as “Fight for your right to party” I believe you are thinking of the Beastie Boys and not Twisted Sister. TS’s claim to fame was “We’re not Gonna Take it” which is just a silly (but fun) rock anthem. I once bashed a Ministry album because it’s voice introduction to the song, “Psalm 69” (obviously meant to be a sexual innuendo) said to turn in the Bible to Revelations [sic] to Psalm 69. I said if they are going to bash religion, they still have a duty to get it right. I think that is a two-way street…
Yes good call. I can’t believe I forgot “We’re not Gonna Take it”. True both songs have equally moronic lyrics. But you are right to criticize my error. Unthinkable that I should disparage one group for the sake of another, when both suck for entirely different reasons. (Okay, Sabotage was okay)
Btw, I have a BA in music. I have sung in All-state Chorus and in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra’s Choir under David Zinman, so I don’t think anyone would consider me tone deaf. I suppose one could say I have bad taste, .
Yes, I think that’s what I’m saying 😉
but I don’t think so as I acknowledge the superiority of classical music to low-culture music of rock et al, but I can still enjoy the low culture stuff at appropriate times and places. And Mass ain’t the right time and place. In fact, I’ll bet I am even more stodgy than most in that regard because if it were up to me, there would be no music after approx. William Byrd in the Mass.
don’t get me wrong. I like SoundGarden and even Nickelback and still have an old Snoop Dogg CD hanging out in my CD drawer (why can’t I part with the gin n juice?). So we all have our guilty little pleasures. But I really don’t get the death metal. I get Zeppelin and appreciate Hendrix. Even like Guns n Roses and limited Metallica. But the Iron Maiden stuff is beyond me - can’t even dance to it. At least you can dance to much of the 90s rap. That’s it’s only saving grace. Death metal doesn’t even have that going for it.
 
This thread reminds me of the hilarious Simpsons episode where Bart substitutes Iron Maiden’s ‘Garden of Eden’ for the organ music at their church.
I loved that episode and how the little old lady organist exhausts herself after playing!!! 😃
Code:
I do think there's a point where music becomes about the performer and entertainment rather than about glorifying God. I would say that threshold is much lower with heavy metal music than with other styles, but I don't think musical style should be the only consideration.
I’ve heard classical Masses that I don’t think should be played in church - Verdi’s Requiem, for example, seems to me very clearly to belong to the concert hall and not in a church. And the Church agrees - there are some classicial composers whose masses have in the past been stated to be unsuitable for liturgical use.
This is very truly. I don’t know how often his Requiem was ever played in church, but it was at least twice – first ever played on the anniversary death of an Italian writer, Manzoni for whom Verdi composed the piece, and I believe it was played for Verdi’s funeral. For this mass and other masses there is no way that a trained singer can’t sing it without going full-blast operatic. I know because I’ve done a couple of pieces from the mass. I’m sure Verdi put all of his heart and soul into the piece and that it was spiritual for him, but was appropriate for mass? As an musician who sings opera, lieder and sacred music, I would say no. You can’t escape the “secular” style because the music itself “demands” you to sing it like you are singing an opera. There are other masses composed throughout the centuries where the music does not demand that kind of singing. You still need trained voices, but there is no need to sing it like you are on the stage of the Met.

Also remember that many masses composed in the 19th century were not meant to be performed for mass, but as concert pieces. So, although they are religious and can be very spiritually uplifting, that doesn’t mean they are appropriate for mass. I love and have been spiritually uplifted by a lot of religious/sacred music which may or may not be appropriate for a mass.

But in regards to heavy metal music and basically all genres of music, I think one needs to see if the way you perform the piece or if the style settles too heavily on the secular end. Did the style first begin in the secular genre? Can it be performed in a way that will not evoke a secular performing style? My colleagues and I have named some hymns which are standard in churches today as “broadway” hymns. Yes, they may pull out spiritual emotion, just like many classical/operatic religious works not appropriate for mass are pulled from me, but they sound like they could be from a broadway show. As a musician we try our best to not sing it like we’d be on broadway, but the compositional style, itself, is done so that you really can’t tone it down, so to speak.

I think one of the reasons why chant is held so high is because even before Christianity, it was used in religious worship in all parts of the world. Eventually, I believe the secular texts were used for chant (I have to double check my cd collection, I recall owning a cd of chant that was all secular), but it was first and foremost used for worship. Chant isn’t even really “classical” music. The classical genre and the 12-tone scale were eventually derived from that such as polyphony, etc. and in the beginning most classical music was sacred music, then it proceeded to incorporate secular music. I certainly do not want only chant for mass. We have so many centuries to today of appropriate sacred music and I’m happy for that.

My personal opinion on heavy metal used for mass…. I believe that since it has its roots in the secular realm of performance and that the style in which you much sing it and perform it has always been secular, it falls too heavily on that end.
 
I don’t know. I’ve known many idiots with Masters Degrees.


True, but it certainly evidence that they are not your typical cro-magnons you usually see in metal.
Yes good call. I can’t believe I forgot “We’re not Gonna Take it”. True both songs have equally moronic lyrics. But you are right to criticize my error. Unthinkable that I should disparage one group for the sake of another, when both suck for entirely different reasons. (Okay, Sabotage was okay)
Good.
Yes, I think that’s what I’m saying 😉
When questioning someone’s taste, I think you have to look at it all. If someone has a wide range featuring predominately the best music, it’s a little unfair to go. “Aha! He likes Iron Maiden. BRAAAAPPP!!! Bad taste.”
don’t get me wrong. I like SoundGarden and even Nickelback and still have an old Snoop Dogg CD hanging out in my CD drawer (why can’t I part with the gin n juice?). So we all have our guilty little pleasures.
I don’t think there is anything to be guilty about if someone likes something in low culture. As long as it is not the full scope of their taste. I like Big Macs, but I think I would only be guilty of bad taste if that was all I ate.
But I really don’t get the death metal.
Iron Maiden has very little in common with death metal. Rather, it is the prototype for what’s known as progressive metal or power metal. (Sometimes jokingly refered to as “Hobbit metal” for it’s high-fantasy themes.) These genres are noted for mining alot of traditional classical material (especially Baroque sequences). In fact, many are attracted to the genre precisely because it avoids the morbid/occult nature of true death metal. I like for that and also the technical virtuosity. Heck, some of it sounds like great music to fight a crusade to.
I get Zeppelin and appreciate Hendrix. Even like Guns n Roses and limited Metallica. But the Iron Maiden stuff is beyond me - can’t even dance to it. At least you can dance to much of the 90s rap. That’s it’s only saving grace. Death metal doesn’t even have that going for it.
I’ll remember that next time I try to dance to “Black Dog” or “The Battle of Evermore” 🙂 Really, the danceability vs. just-for-listening argument goes a long way back before Iron Maiden. Try dancing to Yes’ “Close to the Edge”. 😉 (Also, I think Metallica is closer to death metal than IM ever was. At least in the early days.))

But this is way off topic. I’m sure we agree that Iron Maiden et al don’t go in the Mass. The whole point I think of the op was a *reductio ad absurdum. *Meaning that logically there is no stopping point between allowing the latest pop-garbage in the liturgy and allowing Iron Maiden.
 

When questioning someone’s taste, I think you have to look at it all. If someone has a wide range featuring predominately the best music, it’s a little unfair to go. “Aha! He likes Iron Maiden. BRAAAAPPP!!! Bad taste.”.
No it’s not unfair. 😃
I’ll remember that next time I try to dance to “Black Dog” or “The Battle of Evermore” 🙂 Really, the danceability vs. just-for-listening argument goes a long way back before Iron Maiden. Try dancing to Yes’ “Close to the Edge”. 😉 .
Music is good for two reasons. One, it connects with you emotionally through the use of poignant lyrics or a beautiful melody. Two, because it’s fun to dance to. Really can’t see any other point. I don’t think Heavy Metal is beautiful. You may, but as i so astutely pointed out, you’re wrong.😃 (And yes, I am having fun with you.)
 
(And yes, I am having fun with you.)
Please don’t do that. I really struggle with this issue. Exactly over the whole Truth, Beauty, Goodness thing. On the one hand, I think sometimes think I should expunge all pop-culture stuff from my life and become kind of a high-culture hermit. On the other hand, the sympathy for much of the mass culture stuff remains and connects me with people I would have little else in common with and also often provides gladness of heart where many would not expect it. (When IM does “Aces High” for instance, I really get the sense of exaltation and triumph of RAF pilots fighting in impossible odds against a great evil. I think that is a good thing.) I suppose it’s a balancing act I was meant to struggle with.
 
Please don’t do that. I really struggle with this issue. Exactly over the whole Truth, Beauty, Goodness thing. On the one hand, I think sometimes think I should expunge all pop-culture stuff from my life and become kind of a high-culture hermit. On the other hand, the sympathy for much of the mass culture stuff remains and connects me with people I would have little else in common with and also often provides gladness of heart where many would not expect it. (When IM does “Aces High” for instance, I really get the sense of exaltation and triumph of RAF pilots fighting in impossible odds against a great evil. I think that is a good thing.) I suppose it’s a balancing act I was meant to struggle with.
I don’t struggle with this at all. I don’t think you should expunge the pop-culture stuff. Some of it is good and beautiful. Not everything outside the Church is bad. There is some good in everyone and everything and St. Thomas himself would agree with that. What has happen in our current society is an insistence that everything we enjoy is completely good. That is equally as false as thinking everything we enjoy is wholly bad.

The Allman Brothers, “Statesborough Blues” makes me smile everytime I hear it. That is good. But if I start emulating Greg Allman, there’s a problem. Don’t beat yourself up over enjoying secular music. Some of it is quite wonderful. I still like “Sympathy for the Devil” even though I’m now a Christian. Must I hate the Stones famous song? No - the message is silly and stupid, but the melody remains great.
 
Please don’t do that. I really struggle with this issue. Exactly over the whole Truth, Beauty, Goodness thing. On the one hand, I think sometimes think I should expunge all pop-culture stuff from my life and become kind of a high-culture hermit. On the other hand, the sympathy for much of the mass culture stuff remains and connects me with people I would have little else in common with and also often provides gladness of heart where many would not expect it. (When IM does “Aces High” for instance, I really get the sense of exaltation and triumph of RAF pilots fighting in impossible odds against a great evil. I think that is a good thing.) I suppose it’s a balancing act I was meant to struggle with.
Actually, I think this thread is starting to wander off topic but it’s a topic that I’d like to see explored in its own thread IN THE LITURGY AND SACRAMENTS forum (as opposed to the Popular Media forum.)

I think that much of the controversy over liturgical music stems from the problem that many Catholics do not consider sacred music as described in the Church documents to be inspiring, beautiful, uplifting, etc. (I would say that such Catholics tend not to hang around in this forum.)

There are probably many more Catholics who find secular music (and popular Christian music) to be far more inspiring than traditional sacred music, on either or both a personal level or on a spiritual level. (Again, I think such Catholics tend to shy away from this forum.)
 
Please don’t do that. I really struggle with this issue. Exactly over the whole Truth, Beauty, Goodness thing. On the one hand, I think sometimes think I should expunge all pop-culture stuff from my life and become kind of a high-culture hermit. On the other hand, the sympathy for much of the mass culture stuff remains and connects me with people I would have little else in common with and also often provides gladness of heart where many would not expect it. (When IM does “Aces High” for instance, I really get the sense of exaltation and triumph of RAF pilots fighting in impossible odds against a great evil. I think that is a good thing.) I suppose it’s a balancing act I was meant to struggle with.
I think many of us work though that. Although I tend to be naturally drawn to high-culture, I do enjoy pop-culture too. It’s always a balancing act, though. The more I read and study art and music and the more I perfect my musical instrument (my voice), the divide between forms of art becomes huge. I see more and more that all things are not equal and for a while when these things were hitting me like revelations, it depressed me. It was so difficult, especially when it came to forms of sacred art and music for the liturgy. My husband who studied composition for a few years, also relayed the same thing. The phrase, “Ignorance is truly bliss,” is so true. For him, there was a time when he felt that his training in serious music composition kind of destroyed any enjoyment in pop music. But you get over that hump and in just the pure enjoyment sense in the company of friends/family, etc. you can have fun with pop art culture for its existence and don’t have to place any intellectual and true artistic meaning into it. But you sometimes do discover something in those pieces which surprise you. Such as discovering that La Follia was used in that ridiculous Brittany Spears song, “Oops, I did it Again”. Whether or not the writer of the song knew what he was doing is unknown – at least to us, but it was something fun to discover especially in that year when I was teaching kids and continuously hearing that song cross my head. Hahaha!

The other thing, too, is that I’ve found that you need a little bit of the popculture to not make a person too dour and serious. I don’t want it in mass, but in everyday life there is something to that. Those I know who are mainly all “high art” are great to be around if you want to be continuously intellectually stimulated, but I prefer hanging out with people that have a bit of both. It’s more interesting and you can have some mindless fun with them as well.
 
I think many of us work though that. Although I tend to be naturally drawn to high-culture, I do enjoy pop-culture too. It’s always a balancing act, though. The more I read and study art and music and the more I perfect my musical instrument (my voice), the divide between forms of art becomes huge. I see more and more that all things are not equal and for a while when these things were hitting me like revelations, it depressed me. It was so difficult, especially when it came to forms of sacred art and music for the liturgy. My husband who studied composition for a few years, also relayed the same thing. The phrase, “Ignorance is truly bliss,” is so true. For him, there was a time when he felt that his training in serious music composition kind of destroyed any enjoyment in pop music. But you get over that hump and in just the pure enjoyment sense in the company of friends/family, etc. you can have fun with pop art culture for its existence and don’t have to place any intellectual and true artistic meaning into it. But you sometimes do discover something in those pieces which surprise you. Such as discovering that La Follia was used in that ridiculous Brittany Spears song, “Oops, I did it Again”. Whether or not the writer of the song knew what he was doing is unknown – at least to us, but it was something fun to discover especially in that year when I was teaching kids and continuously hearing that song cross my head. Hahaha!

The other thing, too, is that I’ve found that you need a little bit of the popculture to not make a person too dour and serious. I don’t want it in mass, but in everyday life there is something to that. Those I know who are mainly all “high art” are great to be around if you want to be continuously intellectually stimulated, but I prefer hanging out with people that have a bit of both. It’s more interesting and you can have some mindless fun with them as well.
No offense, but your post came across as elitist and self aggrandizing. I don’t think that’s what you meant however. And I’m not trying to sound too critical, but it usually helps when people remind us how we come across.

Plus, I don’t like high art. It usually consists of paintings that could’ve been done by my five year old and music that puts me to sleep. But then, I like being a philistine. It’s fun.
 
No no no…If you’re going to play Bon Jovi, it has to be “Keep the Faith.” And you play it to introduce the Credo.

-ACEGC
I think you could sneak ‘Livin’ on a Prayer’ somewhere into the Mass, I’m sure … :whistle:
 
No offense, but your post came across as elitist and self aggrandizing. I don’t think that’s what you meant however. And I’m not trying to sound too critical, but it usually helps when people remind us how we come across.

Plus, I don’t like high art. It usually consists of paintings that could’ve been done by my five year old and music that puts me to sleep. But then, I like being a philistine. It’s fun
No offense taken. 🙂 I know that the written word can be misconstrued sometimes. Such as, your quote, “Plus, I don’t like high art. It usually consists of paintings that could’ve been done by my five year old and music that puts me to sleep. But then, I like being a philistine. It’s fun” can come across as being a reverse snob and being an ignoramus and too proud, but please note that I definitely DON’T think that about you and definitely don’t believe you meant that . 🙂 If I was the kind of person that would make that assumption based on one or two posts, I would think that, but I’m not like that and I don’t know you personally to make an unfair assumption. And actually, I agree with you. There are works of what some people would consider as high art as what I would consider pieces of trash. There are centuries of works prior to that style which was what I was referring to.

What I was trying to convey to Scottgun was that he was not alone in the balancing act. I was giving examples of my life, how my background and education has shaped me. And I did say that I had to get over that hump of being depressed because of the more I learned and knew and understood the ins and outs of music. I came to enjoy pop culture (mainly music as that is my training) for what it is, like as when I was a child and didn’t go through extensive training in music yet. There is nothing wrong with being mainly, what you would consider a “philistine”, but there is also nothing wrong with being mainly someone who prefers high-art. What I’m trying to say is that it is even better if you can balance the two in life – at least have an appreciation for the other or an understanding for what it is. It is more fun to have both than to be just one way.
 
What’s the point of setting up silly straw men? Nobody is saying “Gregorian chant and nothing else”. Nobody but you, that is.
He isn’t alone, I read it that way as well. 🙂 I actually prefer U2, red hot Chili peppers, coldplay. 😛
 
He isn’t alone, I read it that way as well. 🙂 I actually prefer U2, red hot Chili peppers, coldplay. 😛
It really is interesting how something can be interpreted in different ways. 🙂 I didn’t interpret the OP as that at all. From that first post, to me it appeared that the OP asked a legitimate question about how far you can go with various music genres and still have it considered as in “accord with the spirit of the liturgical action”. To me, OP wanted a discussion on this using an extreme and a bit of humour by giving example of groups like Mega Death and Iron Maiden. The OP may have not meant to have a little bit of humour thrown in, but I thought it lightened the topic up.

Although reading on screen or paper doesn’t help to really decipher what a person is trying to convey in their thoughts, I wonder if these differences in interpretation have to do with personal experience. For instance, if your experience with latter 20th c. Catholic music has been very negative due to anger-driven folk musicians who basically ate you for breakfast if you mention the word “chant”, would it be a natural inclination (not saying it’s right) to assume that of person who might just be saying on a thread that he likes contemporary Catholic music and doesn’t even allude to not having chant or other forms of sacred music. It would be the same the other way around. I thought OP was very fair in broaching the topic, but someone else who may have been inundated with total negativity about the use of “contemporary” Catholic music in the past will interpret and assume the worst of the topic.

Sort of like how someone who was always treated badly and misused will automatically be on guard and assume something contrary and negative against a person who is actually just being nice or normal.

I hope I’m making sense here, but having been on these forums, it just seems like this kind of interpreting happens often, for good or ill in various subjects.

BTW - U2 is one of my favorite bands. I can’t get enough of them. 🙂 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top