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paul_c
Guest
these are excellent references against Sola Fide and OSAS.
- Status
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elvisman
Guest
Like those?
Here are some more:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved**; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
**Acts 15:11
**we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Rom. 5:9-10**
**since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 13:11
For salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.**
**
1 Cor. 3:15
he will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Cor. 5:5
Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:11-12
This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.**
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paul_c
Guest
Most of these will be twisted by the Sola Fide enthusiasts to support their position. The first batch was much better.Like those?
Here are some more:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved**; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
**Acts 15:11
**we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Rom. 5:9-10**
**since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 13:11
For salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.**
**
1 Cor. 3:15
he will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Cor. 5:5
Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:11-12
This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.**
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Akini
Guest
Accepting Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, and believing that you are saved - is the core problem of this whole question about salvation. Accepting & believing Jesus Christ only is not enough for anybody to be saved. Matthew 7:21-23 clearly states that “not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do”. So even catholics can lose their salvation if they do not do what God wants them to do. We must always strive towards obtainig our salvation. Salvation is not a one moment occasion. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) so that if one falls into sin, he/she can always go to confession to be reconciled with God. Those who are outside the Catholic Church do not have that avenue, therefore, the possibility of losing their souls to Hell is always there. For catholics, therefore, confession is an essential part of the process of achieving the ultimate goal - SALVATION.
Akini
Akini
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elvisman
Guest
They pretty much all say the same thing when read in context:
Salvation is a process.
You’re right about them twisting the scriptures to their own destruction, though (2 Peter 3:16).
I’ve read and heard just every argument there is to these passages - and more. They really have to do some Scriptural acrobatics to get around the truth . . .
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RedRedemption
Guest
this whole idea that because Jesus told the disciples to “do this in remembrance of me” at the last supper was Jesus ordaining them as priests that had special access and authority is a problem. To take those words and think that only an ordained Catholic priest has the ability to dispense God’s grace or to think that propitiation of sins is found in the bread and wine consecrated only by a Catholic priest during mass is a far reach. This belief of the special order of priests in the church is what makes people think they must be in the Catholic church to have salvation because only the Catholic priest can absolve people of sins. But the book of Hebrews clearly presents that Christ is our high priest and the perfect sacrifice and that we have access to God through him. Christ is who we go to for forgiveness and propitiation of sins. We do not go to human=sinful men in the form of priests to receive propitiation of sins as the church teaches happens during the Eucharist. (In the Eucharist, only the priest has the power to turn the bread and wine into Christ and allow the people to eat and drink which results in propitiation of sins)
Again, this whole system is based on the idea that somehow Jesus gave this authority to only his 12 disciples and that has passed down the ages to the Catholic priests. I understand that this tradition has been practiced for centuries but the special order of priests was done away with when Christ was crucified just as the system of sacrifices and the need for altars was too. Heb 7:27; Heb. 9:26. We are all members of a royal priesthood which has direct access to Christ, the high priest. (Rev. 1:6 and 1 Pet. 2:9)
Just want to add that I’m not trying to insult anyone. Just looking for truth and open dialogue.
Again, this whole system is based on the idea that somehow Jesus gave this authority to only his 12 disciples and that has passed down the ages to the Catholic priests. I understand that this tradition has been practiced for centuries but the special order of priests was done away with when Christ was crucified just as the system of sacrifices and the need for altars was too. Heb 7:27; Heb. 9:26. We are all members of a royal priesthood which has direct access to Christ, the high priest. (Rev. 1:6 and 1 Pet. 2:9)
Just want to add that I’m not trying to insult anyone. Just looking for truth and open dialogue.
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elvisman
Guest
Hey Red (sounds like Elvis talking!)
First of all - the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that all sins are forgiven when receiving the Holy Eucharist - only venial sins. Mortal - or deadly sins must be confessed to a priest. Who gave them this power? Jesus did (Matt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:21-23). Jesus told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church to ALL truth - not just some truth (John 16:12-15).
Paul calls the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). He didn’t say that Scripture was the pillar and foundation of truth, but the Church was.
**Secondly - Jesus appointed certain men to take his Church to the world (Matt. 28:19-20). Luke 22:15 tells us that he “eagerly desired” to eat this Passover with them.
Acts 1:20-26 tells us that they chose another to replace Judas, according to prohecy. In Acts 15:24, we read that only those who were sent out by them should be listened to. These passages clearly show an Apostolic line of succession.**
Now tell me - what do you make of the Authority given to the Apostles and to the Church to forgive sins or hold them bound (Matt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:21-23)?
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paul_c
Guest
I’d like to add to what elvisman said. The Apostles were clearly given the right to forgive sins in John 20:
21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained
When a Catholic priest forgives sins, he is doing so as the representative of Christ following this mandate.
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RedRedemption
Guest
in regards to Matthew 16:19, These represent authority, and here Christ gives Peter ( and by extension all other believers) authority to declare what was bound and loosed in heaven. This echoed the promise of John 20:23, where Christ gave the disciples authority to forgive or retain the sins of people. All this must be understood in the context of Matt 18:15-17, where Christ laid out specific instructions for dealing with sin in the church. The sum of it all means that any duly consituted body of believers, acting in accord with God’s Word, has the authority to declare if someone is forgiven or unforgiven. The church’s authority is not to determine these things, but to declare the judgment of heaven based on principles of the Word. When they make such judgments on the basis of God’s Word, they can be sure heaven is in accord. In other words, whatever they “bind” or “loose” on earth is already “bound” or “loosed” in heaven. When the church says the unrepentant person is bound in sin, the church is saying what God says about that person. When the church acknowledges that a repentant person has been loosed from that sin, God agrees.
Surely the Catholic position on Matt 16:19 is not that the said verse gives the church the power to bind or loose whatsoever it chooses even if it is in opposition to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. The whole point is that a congregation of believers living according to the teaching of the scriptures and walking in the spirit will loose or bind according to what the scripture teaches which would be in agreement with what God would see loosed or bound in heaven as well.
Surely the Catholic position on Matt 16:19 is not that the said verse gives the church the power to bind or loose whatsoever it chooses even if it is in opposition to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. The whole point is that a congregation of believers living according to the teaching of the scriptures and walking in the spirit will loose or bind according to what the scripture teaches which would be in agreement with what God would see loosed or bound in heaven as well.
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BerhaneSelassie
Guest
The royal priesthood is does not rule out the ministerial priesthood, since even the Israelites of the Old Testament were called royal priests, in fact the New Testament quotes Exodus 19 to show that (most don’t realize this and assume there must be no ministerial priesthood because of this).
As far as the Altar is concerned both 1 Corinthians 10 and Hebrew 13 mention it for Christians.
As far as the Altar is concerned both 1 Corinthians 10 and Hebrew 13 mention it for Christians.
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BerhaneSelassie
Guest
The Church does not make decisions that oppose the Scriptures. In Matthew 16 only Peter was addressed with the bind and loosening power. Then Matthew 18 it was applied to all apostles and church leaders. In the Old Testament the people that had authority like this were judges and certain God appointed leaders, Isaiah 22 uses a similar expression in regards to Eliakim. In Jesus’ time it was certain rabbinical leaders, the nasi, Sanhedrin that would bind and loose. Jesus in one of His Parable says He would replace the Jewish Leadership with another’s, this is the Church leaders. In Acts 15, the people that made the decisions were “apostles and presbyters” not the laity in general. In St Paul’s writings he mentions excommunication a few times like “I delivered to Satan” (1 Timothy 1), or Titus 3:10-11 where Paul tells Titus to that he should shun heretics after he admonishes them, or 1 Timothy 5 where he tells Timothy specifically to reprimand sinners publicly
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Randy_Carson
Guest
There’s a lot here to respond to and most of it is off-topic. I’ll just give you this to consider:
He ordained them when he instituted the Eucharist and told them, “Do this in remembrance of me” (Lk 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24). This is defined Catholic dogma (Council of Trent, Doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, can. 2).
Although this was when Christ constituted the apostles as priests, this is not obvious from the common English translation of his words as “Do this in remembrance of me” (Greek, “Touto poieite eis ton emen anamnesin”). The meaning of two key words–poieite and anamnesin–are not adequately brought out by this translation.
Poiein has sacrificial overtones. In the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek version of the Old Testament, there are about seventy sacrificial uses of poiein. One example: “Now this is what you shall offer (poieseis) upon the altar: two lambs a year old, day by day, continually” (Ex 29:38).
Anamnesis also has sacrificial overtones. It occurs only eight times in the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. All but once (Wis 16:6) it is in a sacrificial context: “There is in these sacrifices a reminder anamnesis] of sin year after year” (Heb 10:3). “And you shall put pure frankincense with each row, that it may go with the bread as a memorial portion anamnesin] to be offered by fire to the Lord” (Lv 24:7). “On the day of your gladness . . . you shall blow over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; they shall serve you for remembrance anamnesis] before your God” (Nm 10:10). Psalm 38 (39) is titled, “A Psalm of David, for the memorial offering anamnesin].” Psalm 70 (71) its titled, “To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, for the memorial offering anamnesin].” In these cases the term *anamnesis *can be translated as “memorial portion,” “memorial offering,” or “memorial sacrifice.”
Thus in the remaining two occurrences of anamnesis (Lk 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24), Christ’s words, “Do this in remembrance of me,” can be translated as “Offer this for my memorial sacrifice.” Given the sacrificial character of the Eucharist, there is little doubt this translation is appropriate. To tell someone, “Offer this for my memorial sacrifice,” is to direct him to fulfill a priestly function (see Heb 5:1). So the Church has correctly regarded Christ’s words as the institution of the apostles’ priesthood and as the basis for all future priests who offer the Eucharistic sacrifice.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
All other believers? Where does it say that in the Bible?
Careful…Jesus gave the authority to the Apostles…not to the disciples.
“Any duly constituted body of believers”? Okay…we know that Jesus said He would “build my church” - not churches - and we know that the Catholic Church is that Church since the believers began calling themselves the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century. So, THAT is the only duly constituted body of believers that I recognize.
Wow. An excellent argument for the infallibility of the Church. Good job.
Correct. The Catholic Church does not teach anything in opposition to the Word of God - whether in its written OR oral form.
The “congregation of believers” does not have the authority to bind or loose since only Peter was given this authority. He received the keys on behalf of the Church, but that does not mean that the Church exercises this authority apart from Peter and his successors.
However, as Jesus said, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
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elvisman
Guest
Sorry, Red, but you’re wrong.
Many times in Scripture, Jesus spoke to his disciples in general and many times he spoke to his Apostles only.
**For example, the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5) and the Bread of Life Discourse (John 6:31-71) was spoken to ALL of his disciples in general. During the Last Supper – he spoke to the Apostles only. In Matt. 16:16-19, he spoke to Peter ONLY when he gave him the Keys to the Kingdom, echoing the words of Isaiah 22:20-24:
*“On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; ***
I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. ***
I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
This is almost word for word what Jesus said to Peter in Matt. 16:19
“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind****** on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."***
In John 21:15-17, Jesus again speaks to Peter alone when he tells him 3 times to feed his sheep.
Lastly, in Luke 22:21-32, Jesus again singles out Peter when he tells him:
"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers."
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yankee_drifter
Guest
One is not saved because of the church he belongs to. Salvation is not found because we are a member of a particular church. Salvation is found through Christ alone. In the Scriptures, after the Gospel was preached people repented, believe on Christ as Savior and got saved. Then they joined a local church. Remember, Christianity is not about religion…but relationship…with Jesus Christ…
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Randy_Carson
Guest
We were baptized into Christ and buried with him in order that we might be raised with him to new life.One is not saved because of the church he belongs to. Salvation is not found because we are a member of a particular church. Salvation is found through Christ alone. In the Scriptures, after the Gospel was preached people repented, believe on Christ as Savior and got saved. Then they joined a local church. Remember, Christianity is not about religion…but relationship…with Jesus Christ…
Romans 6:2-4 (New International Version)
2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Additionally, we were baptized into one body.
[1 Corinthians 12:13](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+12:13&version=NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
And we know that Jesus is the head of the Church, his body.
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Therefore, from these verses, we see that it is through baptism into the Church, the one Body of Christ that we are saved and regenerated to new life. That’s why it is said that “outside the Church, there is no salvation.”
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RedBert
Guest
what is meant here?
*** ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ "*** (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223).
The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, **though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter **For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which **they are united with Christ **(“Dogmatic Constitution…,” 1964, 2.15,)
*** ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ "*** (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223).
The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, **though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter **For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which **they are united with Christ **(“Dogmatic Constitution…,” 1964, 2.15,)
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JustaServant
Guest
Find that concept in the Bible or in 2000 years of Church history.Remember, Christianity is not about religion…but relationship…with Jesus Christ…
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Randy_Carson
Guest
It means that non-Catholics may be saved; however, these are saved by being united (even though imperfectly or unknowingly) with the Church, the Body of Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.
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RedBert
Guest
Please clarify the Catholic Chuch’s position as you understand it.
Are saying that Muslims who knowingly deny the deity of Christ, and the Resurrection are “unknowingly united the the Church” and therefore capable of receiving salvation?
Are you say the non-Catholic Protestants who knowingly reject all uniquely Catholic doctrines are “unknowingly united the the Church” and therefore capable of receiving salvation
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