Can non-Catholics be saved?

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And perhaps the moon is made of green cheese.

Only Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God and proved it by his miracles, but essentially by His resurrection after crucifixion – seen by many witnesses who died for Him subsequently as martyrs. He built His Church on Peter and sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from teaching error resulting in many Jewish converts.

As you think so do you act. Fantasising will not develop reason nor help belief. Many people make their own trouble.
 
Abu said:
And perhaps the moon is made of green cheese.

Only Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God and proved it by his miracles, but essentially by His resurrection after crucifixion – seen by many witnesses who died for Him subsequently as martyrs. He built His Church on Peter and sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from teaching error resulting in many Jewish converts.

As you think so do you act. Fantasising will not develop reason nor help belief. Many people make their own trouble.
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If Christianity is the only way to heaven God must hate just about everyone born in India and the middle east.

I can see your response now “Well God doesn’t hate anyone.” Well if he loved everyone equally, why would he have people born into families and culture that basically made sure they would not convert to the one true religion…just so he could send them to hell for it? Doesn’t that seem a little off to you?
 
Christ teaching IS God’s law and, if you take the trouble to look at what His Church teaches, you will have the opportunity to know that **“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do God’s will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” **The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium) # 16, Vatican II. [Post #26].

Don’t want to make the effort? You will have a problem. No pain, no gain.
 
Abu said:
Christ teaching IS God’s law and, if you take the trouble to look at what His Church teaches, you will have the opportunity to know that **“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do God’s will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” **The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium) # 16, Vatican II. [Post #26].

Don’t want to make the effort? You will have a problem. No pain, no gain.
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You have to define “do not know the gospel of Christ.” Because there is no doubt that the great majority of Hindus and Muslims know of Jesus and know of the Bible. Does that make them fall into the category of rejecting Jesus?
 
You figure it out – do they “seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do God’s will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience”? How well do they know and understand Christ’s teaching through His Church – She gave us the New Testament?

God knows and judges.
 
Trishie said:
I would ask how sincere and honest is their unbelief.
I would believe they must be open, and strive to seek God to the best of their ability, and live a life in accordance with the command to love others as self, living Christian values.
**None of us Catholic, Christian or otherwise can go to heaven if we do not live practical Christian love towards others. **Jesus gives the final word on judgement, as divine Judge Himself, according to practical love of others.

Matthew 25 verses 31-46…Jesus’ words on who will be saved:

"The Last Judgement"

“When the Son of Man comes in all His glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men from one another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. then the King shall say to those on his right hand,” Come you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was a stranger and you made me welcome. I was thirsty and you gave me drink; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.

Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you?

And the King will answer, " I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."

Next he will say to those on his left “Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for when I was hungry you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.”
Then it will be their turn to ask, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty; a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and not come to your help?”
Then he will answer, "I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.

And since Jesus is the very Person who will judge all of us, I think we have to accept HIS criterion for who may be saved! His criterion is salvation depends upon our charity towards other people, which He regards as charity directly given to Him. He has given us the Church and the Sacraments to help us to live thus, but even if we are utterly sincere in unbelief, we must still live the command to love others as self.
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I don;t see how a Catholic can take Matthew 25 literally because it says that if you perform the good works there, you will be saved. But supposing that a Catholic, with suficient reflection and full consent of the will were to eat meat on a Friday which was a Church designated day of abstinence. Then he would have committed a mortal sin, and without repentance, he would be going to hell even if he had performed the good works listed in Matthew 25, is that not correct?
 
Abu said:
Unfortunately as readers have seen the selfist approach prevails still, but with the truth known, there is always hope for a return to fidelity, and readers can rest assured that it certainly is possible for non-Catholics to be saved as Christ’s Church teaches.

The official Decree against the heresy needs to be known.

the-pope.com/feeneyite.html:
On February 16, 1953, the Acta Apostolicae Sedis announced the excommunication of Father Leonard Feeney. The following is an official translation of the Decree:
"Since Father Leonard Feeney remained in Boston (St. Benedict Center) and since he has been suspended from performing his priestly duties for a long time because of his grave disobedience to the Authority of the Church, in no way moved by repeated warnings and threats of incurring excommunication ipso facto, and has still failed to submit, the most Eminent and Reverend Fathers, charged with the responsibility of safeguarding faith and morals, during a plenary session held on February 4, 1953, have declared him excommunicated with all the effects that this has in law.
"On Thursday, February 12, 1953, Our Most Holy Father Pius XII, Pope by Divine Providence, has approved and confirmed the decree of these Most Eminent Fathers, and ordered that this be made a matter of public record.
“Given in Rome in the general quarters of the Holy Office, February 13, 1953. Marius Crovini, notary.”

“Since then, and in spite of the sanction of the Holy See, Father Feeney has made the St. Benedict Center the headquarters of a Society of about one hundred individuals who call themselves the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and who have undertaken to propagate this condemned doctrine about the salvation of non-Catholics, while accusing the Archbishop of Boston and all who agree with his interpretation of being heretics.”
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Yes, his excommunication was published… and you’ll notice Father Feeney was excommunicated for disobedience, not heresy. You should also know that Father Feeney died reconciled to the Church without recanting his position on EENS, he was never required to recant because he was never excommunicated for heresy.
 
sidbrown said:
I don;t see how a Catholic can take Matthew 25 literally because it says that if you perform the good works there, you will be saved. But supposing that a Catholic, with suficient reflection and full consent of the will were to eat meat on a Friday which was a Church designated day of abstinence. Then he would have committed a mortal sin, and without repentance, he would be going to hell even if he had performed the good works listed in Matthew 25, is that not correct?
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I hate this view. Do you really think that a person that did lots of charity work and was an all around good person, living their lives like Jesus, would go to hell because they ate meat on one day…something that wouldn’t even be a sin if it was another day. Does that seem fair to send someone to hell over??

I have heard all the responses to things like this seem to defy all logic and reason…“Well that is what the Church says” and “We can’t understand the ways of God.”

Well if God is sending someone to hell for eating meat on one day, when during another day it is perfectly acceptable, there is something wrong and god is not entirely good in my opinion.
 
What you do not understand is that NONE of us deserve heaven. We all deserve to suffer in hell for all of eternity.

Could one infraction separate you from God?

Let me ask you - would you leave your wife because she cheated on you one time?
 
kage_ar said:
What you do not understand is that NONE of us deserve heaven. We all deserve to suffer in hell for all of eternity.

Could one infraction separate you from God?

Let me ask you - would you leave your wife because she cheated on you one time?
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I didn’t create my wife though…
 
“Catechism of the Catholic Church” Imprimi Potest. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict)
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"Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation"
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Sure. But they’re still saved by Christ and the grace is mediated through the Church in some way. So all salvation is through Christ and the Church. The word “can” is important, too. The Church has never said if any particular non-Catholic actually has been saved. So no one should get too “comfy” staying non-Catholic.
 
Just a tiny question to AnneElliot:

Do you think that Pope Benedict XVI committed heresy for implying that the protestant frére Roger was in heaven?

The case actually is one that startled me especially with regards to the dogma of EENS. Furthermore, this man was granted participation in the Holy Communion without ever becoming Catholic. The canonical provisions of one’s life being in danger was also not given.
 
Can non-Catholics be saved?

The evidence is clear that they may achieve salvation: from Pope St Clement in about A.D. 45 to today CCC 846-847 (Lumen Gentium #16) and many have presented it from the teaching of Christ’s Church. The Church, and therefore faithful Catholics, have “the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelise all men.” (CCC 848, Ad gentes divinitus 7 (Vatican II).

Selfists live in their own world of disinformation and distortion and the Feeneyites exemplify this morass. Their founder has been excommunicated and his errors exposed in the eyes of the People of God.

The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). [Msgr Cormac P Burke, OSV *Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine].

Pope John Paul II explains in Threshold of Hope (Random House, 1994, p 140-1): “Besides formal membership in the Church, *the sphere of salvation *can also include *other forms of relation *to the Church. Paul VI expressed this same teaching in his first encyclical, Ecclesiam Suam, when he spoke of the various circles of the dialogue of salvation (Cf. p 101-117), which are the same as those indicated by the Council as the spheres of membership in and of relation to the Church. This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’”
 
Shlomey said:
Just a tiny question to AnneElliot:

Do you think that Pope Benedict XVI committed heresy for implying that the protestant frére Roger was in heaven?

The case actually is one that startled me especially with regards to the dogma of EENS. Furthermore, this man was granted participation in the Holy Communion without ever becoming Catholic. The canonical provisions of one’s life being in danger was also not given.
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I am not familiar with the situation, can you point me to more details?
 
Who concocted the assumption that it is a “mortal” sin to disobey a disciplinary recommendation from the Church not to eat meat on Fridays? Will disinformation never cease?
 
Abu said:
Who concocted the assumption that it is a “mortal” sin to disobey a disciplinary recommendation from the Church not to eat meat on Fridays? Will disinformation never cease?
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According to the law of the Church “the substantial observance” of Fridays as days of penance, whether by abstinence from meat or other penance is “a grave obigation.” Pope Paul VI, Paentemini, 1966, Norm II, 2----
 
On Lent, penance, sin and hell.

During Lent some penance OR abstinence is enjoined, decided by bishops in their own countries.

As there is so much confusion spread the following may be helpful.

“Not every isolated neglect of one’s penitential duty on Fridays other than those in Lent is, therefore, to be regarded as a serious sin. But a repeated and habitual neglect of any practice of self-denial at all on Fridays would be a grave violation of the law and necessary matter for confession before receiving Holy Communion. Continued neglect during a period of three months would certainly constitute a ‘notable number’ of Fridays proportionately to the fifty-two Fridays in the year and deserve to be ranked as gravely sinful.” (Fr Leslie Rumble, STD., Questions People Ask, Chevalier, 1975, p 299).

Bishops may change the details, and BTW, Catholics have the sacrament of confession for venial and mortal sins.

Hell is reserved only for those who wilfully turn against God over a serious matter and persist up to His last offered opportunity for repentance, at death.
 
Abu said:
Christ’s Church has never taught that only faithful Catholics can be saved, as a few misguided souls seem to think, and this was understood very early in the life of the Church.
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How does one explain the following teachings of the Catholic Chuirch:
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302: Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that it is absolutely necessity for salvation that they be entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
 
Sidbrown
Assimilate the facts from about 95 A.D. and Pope St Clement to Pope John Paul II.
Do you assent to the Dogmatic Constitutions of the Vatican II Ecumenical Council?

Post #58:
Pope John Paul II explains in Threshold of Hope (Random House, 1994, p 140-1): “Besides formal membership in the Church, the sphere of salvation can also include other forms of relation to the Church. Paul VI expressed this same teaching in his first encyclical, Ecclesiam Suam, when he spoke of the various circles of the dialogue of salvation (Cf. p 101-117), which are the same as those indicated by the Council as the spheres of membership in and of relation to the Church. This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’”

Post #13, #54:
The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). [Msgr Cormac P Burke, OSV* Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine].

The Papal Bull Unam Sanctam was written during a dispute with the King of France. The Pope was merely stating that salvation comes from Christ through the Church He established. Further, it was written for those who already belonged to the Church including the King of France. It did not and does not address those who are outside of the Church.

Post #18:
Thus, just as without Christ there is no salvation, so without the Church there is no salvation. Catechism of the Catholic Church # 846 - # 848]. The Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not a person knows of its divine origin and founding, is the body through which ALL salvation comes to anyone whom God deems worthy to receive it.

Post #10:
Pope St Clement I, wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].
 
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