Can one be a "Catholic At Large?"

[FrDavid96]

Respectfully FrDavid96, would you provide link.
Vatican - English - Code of Canon Law
I seem unable to find this provision in the code. It is an absolutely huge volume of work and I’m sure I’ve simply missed the entry and even the search engine missed it.

Can. 102 §1. Domicile is acquired by that residence within the territory of a certain parish or at least of a diocese, which either is joined with the intention of remaining there permanently unless called away or has been protracted for five complete years.

§2. Quasi-domicile is acquired by residence within the territory of a certain parish or at least of a diocese, which either is joined with the intention of remaining there for at least three months unless called away or has in fact been protracted for three months.

§3. A domicile or quasi-domicile within the territory of a parish is called parochial; within the territory of a diocese, even though not within a parish, diocesan.

Can. 106 Domicile and quasi-domicile are lost by departure from a place with the intention of not returning, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 105.

Can. 107 §1. Through both domicile and quasi-domicile, each person acquires his or her pastor and ordinary.

§2. The proper pastor or ordinary of a transient is the pastor or local ordinary where the transient is actually residing.

§3. The proper pastor of one who has only a diocesan domicile or quasi-domicile is the pastor of the place where the person is actually residing.

Can. 213 The Christian faithful have the right to receive assistance from the sacred pastors out of the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the sacraments.

Can. 515 §1. A parish is a certain community of the Christian faithful stably constituted in a particular church, whose pastoral care is entrusted to a pastor (parochus) as its proper pastor (pastor) under the authority of the diocesan bishop.

§2. It is only for the diocesan bishop to erect, suppress, or alter parishes. He is neither to erect, suppress, nor alter notably parishes, unless he has heard the presbyteral council.

§3. A legitimately erected parish possesses juridic personality by the law itself.

Can. 516 §1. Unless the law provides otherwise, a quasi-parish is equivalent to a parish; a quasi-parish is a definite community of the Christian faithful in a particular church, entrusted to a priest as its proper pastor but not yet erected as a parish because of particular circumstances.

§2. When certain communities cannot be erected as parishes or quasi-parishes, the diocesan bishop is to provide for their pastoral care in another way.

Can. 530 The following functions are especially entrusted to a pastor:

1/ the administration of baptism;

2/ the administration of the sacrament of confirmation to those who are in danger of death, according to the norm of ⇒ can. 883, n. 3;

3/ the administration of Viaticum and of the anointing of the sick, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1003, §§2 and 3, and the imparting of the apostolic blessing;

4/ the assistance at marriages and the nuptial blessing;

5/ the performance of funeral rites;

6/ the blessing of the baptismal font at Easter time, the leading of processions outside the church, and solemn blessings outside the church;

7/ the more solemn eucharistic celebration on Sundays and holy days of obligation.

Can. 862 Except in a case of necessity, no one is permitted to confer baptism in the territory of another without the required permission, not even upon his own subjects.

Can. 863 The baptism of adults, at least of those who have completed their fourteenth year, is to be deferred to the diocesan bishop so that he himself administers it if he has judged it Expedient.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Respectfully FrDavid96, would you provide link.
Vatican - English - Code of Canon Law
I seem unable to find this provision in the code. It is an absolutely huge volume of work and I’m sure I’ve simply missed the entry and even the search engine missed it.

This page from “Canon Law Made Easy” should answer all your questions about what a parish is including citations from canon law: canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/10/24/is-every-catholic-church-a-parish/ (and hopefully will save Fr. David a little typing on a busy Sunday!).

 

[FrDavid96]

This page from “Canon Law Made Easy” should answer all your questions about what a parish is including citations from canon law: canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/10/24/is-every-catholic-church-a-parish/ (and hopefully will save Fr. David a little typing on a busy Sunday!).

Thanks.

Mostly, I did cut-and-paste. I certainly did not type all that.

The point though, is that parishes are territories–this is the universal law of the Church.

Pastors are responsible for the pastoral care of their parishioners—meaning, the people who actually live within the parish boundaries. A pastor’s authority is limited to his own parishioners (and yes, occasionally to visitors). A bishop might make an exception to this and might grant pastors faculties for some act for which they do not otherwise have them; but the universal law is still that a pastor’s authority is (generally) limited to his own parishioners and his own territory.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

This page from “Canon Law Made Easy” should answer all your questions about what a parish is including citations from canon law: canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/10/24/is-every-catholic-church-a-parish/ (and hopefully will save Fr. David a little typing on a busy Sunday!).

So this makes sense in cases where you are not technically attending a parish, but what about cases in which someone travels a bit to a different parish? For example, when I was younger, we traveled to my father’s childhood parish and I did all of my early CCD there. Technically, there was a parish closer to our home address. Is the key just that one priest can tell the other that it’s fine (likely because they wouldn’t want someone to leave the faith over something silly)?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

So this makes sense in cases where you are not technically attending a parish, but what about cases in which someone travels a bit to a different parish? For example, when I was younger, we traveled to my father’s childhood parish and I did all of my early CCD there. Technically, there was a parish closer to our home address. Is the key just that one priest can tell the other that it’s fine (likely because they wouldn’t want someone to leave the faith over something silly)?

Sometimes parish boundaries are ignored and sometimes things happen behind the scenes to obtain permission where people didn’t even know it was needed. Other times the rules are enforced more strictly. And sometimes there are rules that MUST be enforced.

I had a guy show up for RCIA who had never attended Mass in our parish. It turned out that he regularly went to Mass at a convent down the street. He wanted to attend RCIA there and be baptized in their chapel. They offered to pray for him and expressed their joy that he had found something so wonderful through them, but explained that they weren’t a parish, didn’t have RCIA, and he couldn’t be baptized there. So he came to talk to me but was unhappy at the prospect. He kept saying “But THAT’S my community. I don’t even know you guys.” He ultimately decided not to become Catholic because we were enforcing a bunch of arbitrary rules and he didn’t like them. No amount of explanation or sympathy would move him. Sometimes being Catholic means that you have to fit into the structure that exists even if it’s not exactly to your liking.

 

[DarkLight]

There has to be something, especially given how opaque the actual parish structure is. Where I was confirmed, I couldn’t tell you in the slightest which of the three local parishes my house was in. I was pretty close to equidistant between the three.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

There has to be something, especially given how opaque the actual parish structure is. Where I was confirmed, I couldn’t tell you in the slightest which of the three local parishes my house was in. I was pretty close to equidistant between the three.

Some diocesan web sites have maps showing parish boundaries. If not, you could ask at the parish or the diocese and they’d be able to tell you.

 

[FrDavid96]

So this makes sense in cases where you are not technically attending a parish, but what about cases in which someone travels a bit to a different parish? For example, when I was younger, we traveled to my father’s childhood parish and I did all of my early CCD there. Technically, there was a parish closer to our home address. Is the key just that one priest can tell the other that it’s fine (likely because they wouldn’t want someone to leave the faith over something silly)?

There’s no provision in canon law that says “if you’re not technically attending a parish…then some law other than this applies to you.” It doesn’t work that way.

Whatever happened in your particular situation, happened. All I can say is that if any sort of permissions were needed, the priests probably worked things out.

Canon law is not “something silly.” It’s the law of the Church and it’s put there for the good of souls.

 

[FrDavid96]

There has to be something, especially given how opaque the actual parish structure is. Where I was confirmed, I couldn’t tell you in the slightest which of the three local parishes my house was in. I was pretty close to equidistant between the three.

I don’t know what you mean by “there has to be something…” There is something. Parish boundaries are required by canon law and are defined by the bishop (usually when the parish is established or if/when there’s a re-alignment).

When a diocesan bishop confirms, it’s his territory that matters (not so much the parish boundaries) as he is the pastor of his entire diocese. In addition, so long as he is present in his own diocese he can confirm even someone from outside his diocese, unless the other bishop objects (which usually does not happen). When presbyters confirm, the requirements are different (and frankly, there’s too much “if this…then that…” to list all the possible scenarios).

 

[WingsOfEagles]

There’s no provision in canon law that says “if you’re not technically attending a parish…then some law other than this applies to you.” It doesn’t work that way.

Whatever happened in your particular situation, happened. All I can say is that if any sort of permissions were needed, the priests probably worked things out.

Canon law is not “something silly.” It’s the law of the Church and it’s put there for the good of souls.

I’m just having trouble understanding why one must bring your children to the CCD that is in your geographical boundary. We later moved and attended the nearest parish to us. At that parish, there were also cases of children in the our CCD program who lived closer to another church. Is it because in rural areas, you may not have a parish in your actual town and so the nearest parish rule isn’t being enforced (i.e. one church is 10 minutes away, one is 20).

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m just having trouble understanding why one must bring your children to the CCD that is in your geographical boundary. We later moved and attended the nearest parish to us. At that parish, there were also cases of children in the our CCD program who lived closer to another church. Is it because in rural areas, you may not have a parish in your actual town and so the nearest parish rule isn’t being enforced (i.e. one church is 10 minutes away, one is 20).

The answer is “because parishes are territories, not buildings.”

If I were to say “I don’t understand why the school district won’t let my children enroll in their school, which is closer to me, just because I happen to live in the boundaries of another school district.” The response would likewise be “because school districts are territories, not buildings.”

Or “I don’t understand why I cannot get a drivers license from a certain state, whose capitol building is closer to where I live, just because I happen to live within the boundaries of a different state.” Again, the response would be “because a state is a territory, not a building.”

The fact that an individual person might not know where state lines are located doesn’t mean that they don’t exist—the same hold true for parishes. Parishes are, by definition, territories.

If I were to own a home in a rural area that happened to be somewhere near a state line, I don’t get to say “if I cannot see the lines on the ground, therefore I get to pick my state.” It just does not work that way. All that matters is the legally defined territory. Parishes are the same.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

The answer is “because parishes are territories, not buildings.”

If I were to say “I don’t understand why the school district won’t let my children enroll in their school, which is closer to me, just because I happen to live in the boundaries of another school district.” The response would likewise be “because school districts are territories, not buildings.”

Or “I don’t understand why I cannot get a drivers license from a certain state, whose capitol building is closer to where I live, just because I happen to live within the boundaries of a different state.” Again, the response would be “because a state is a territory, not a building.”

The fact that an individual person might not know where state lines are located doesn’t mean that they don’t exist—the same hold true for parishes. Parishes are, by definition, territories.

If I were to own a home in a rural area that happened to be somewhere near a state line, I don’t get to say “if I cannot see the lines on the ground, therefore I get to pick my state.” It just does not work that way. All that matters is the legally defined territory. Parishes are the same.

I understand the general logic, but on the flip side, you can be unhappy enough with your public school to pay money to go to the private school. In general, priests are good priests and one parish is about the same as another. I have usually lived by the logic of going to the nearest parish, but had one instance where there seemed to be such a personality clash with the priest of that parish (I basically got yelled at by the priest in the communion line for not stepping forward close enough to receive one Sunday. I don’t mind being asked to step closer, but it was not handled charitably at all and it was not like it had been a regular issue he’d been speaking to me about. There had been other minor things at Mass that I didn’t particularly like, but didn’t say anything about, so it was kind of the last straw.). I was not going to leave the faith because of one priest, so I chose to make the 30 minute drive into the city for the bigger parish. For me it was a blessing because that is a much more active parish with resources available to young adults. The one nearer me is very much only old people. Now, I know that I am allowed to attend that parish for Mass (and I registered with them), but what happens if say, I got married and had a child? Am I reading canon law correctly, that I would have to get married and baptize my child in the nearby parish? I’m not trying to be difficult, but it’s just news to me. I’ve never believed in church shopping, but it was an instance where I was bothered enough that I went home and cried for a good hour (never left Mass like that) and I just couldn’t see myself attending there after that unless the weather really doesn’t permit the drive.

 

[FrDavid96]

I understand the general logic, but on the flip side, you can be unhappy enough with your public school to pay money to go to the private school. In general, priests are good priests and one parish is about the same as another. I have usually lived by the logic of going to the nearest parish, but had one instance where there seemed to be such a personality clash with the priest of that parish (I basically got yelled at by the priest in the communion line for not stepping forward close enough to receive one Sunday. I don’t mind being asked to step closer, but it was not handled charitably at all and it was not like it had been a regular issue he’d been speaking to me about. There had been other minor things at Mass that I didn’t particularly like, but didn’t say anything about, so it was kind of the last straw.). I was not going to leave the faith because of one priest, so I chose to make the 30 minute drive into the city for the bigger parish. For me it was a blessing because that is a much more active parish with resources available to young adults. The one nearer me is very much only old people. Now, I know that I am allowed to attend that parish for Mass (and I registered with them), but what happens if say, I got married and had a child? Am I reading canon law correctly, that I would have to get married and baptize my child in the nearby parish? I’m not trying to be difficult, but it’s just news to me. I’ve never believed in church shopping, but it was an instance where I was bothered enough that I went home and cried for a good hour (never left Mass like that) and I just couldn’t see myself attending there after that unless the weather really doesn’t permit the drive.

All I can do is try to explain it.

Parishes are territories. Personal anecdotes don’t change that fact.

I only wish that people could see that—personal anecdotes don’t change the law that defines a parish as a territory, not a building.

If you have a specific question about parish territory, or about a pastor’s jurisdiction, I can try to answer it (if I know it, or can find it).

 

[WingsOfEagles]

All I can do is try to explain it.

Parishes are territories. Personal anecdotes don’t change that fact.

I only wish that people could see that—personal anecdotes don’t change the law that defines a parish as a territory, not a building.

If you have a specific question about parish territory, or about a pastor’s jurisdiction, I can try to answer it (if I know it, or can find it).

In my current case, there is one Catholic church in the town I rent in, so that would obviously be the one that I “should” attend. Honestly, I’d consider moving 30 minutes over having to attend it all the time. If you’re active in another parish community, are exceptions sometimes made for sacraments such as marriage/baptism? It just seem that I see it all the time in my diocese (which is the same for both parishes).

 

[adrift]

Another problem would be, if you have children, a priest is not allowed accept them into the RCIA/First Communion/Confirmation classes if you are not living within the boundaries of his parish.

You might want to double check that as I don’t think that is true for every Diocese.

The Code of Canon Law applies to every diocese.

Father I am confused by your answer. Are you saying that a priest isn’t allowed to accept children into religious preparation and reception from another parish?
I am in a strange situation. Technically the boundaries for our parish is in another county(and diocese) than the parish we are registered. When I called our diocese to find out what parish we belonged the person I talked to was totally confused. She named the parish we are registered. She obviously did not know about parishes having boundaries. The Bishop of the diocese we belong to has reminded us that we belong to his diocese if any of our son’s were interested in the priesthood.

Does Canon Law preclude you from registering in a parish that you do not belong to by territory. Can the Bishop excuse you? Can the parish Church you register ignore that you belong to another parish?

 

[bardegaulois]

I think an important thing to consider in all of this is that being registered in a parish does not mean being a member of a parish, and being a member of a parish does not mean being registered. As far as I can tell (and I hope the good Father will correct me if I am wrong), parish registration carries absolutely no canonical weight and serves only to make the parish secretary’s job somewhat easier.

That said, however, I don’t think that I can ever recall seeing a map of the parish boundaries in my diocese, or, for that matter, other dioceses in which I’ve sojourned for a spell. In some cases it might be easy to infer logically, as when one lives in a one-parish town, but in some cases not so much, as in rural areas and cities without clearly defined neighbourhoods. One would think that after the spates of recent parish closures in so many dioceses the chanceries would be a little more forthright about this issue that all pastoral care of the faithful would be keeping in accordance with the canons, but I’ve seen nothing. The laity of the suppressed parishes just seemed to go wherever pleased them thereafter. That said, though, I’ve heard no juridical complaints either, making me think that the pastors in my area must have some sort of agreement among themselves.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

I think an important thing to consider in all of this is that being registered in a parish does not mean being a member of a parish, and being a member of a parish does not mean being registered. As far as I can tell (and I hope the good Father will correct me if I am wrong), parish registration carries absolutely no canonical weight and serves only to make the parish secretary’s job somewhat easier.

That said, however, I don’t think that I can ever recall seeing a map of the parish boundaries in my diocese, or, for that matter, other dioceses in which I’ve sojourned for a spell. In some cases it might be easy to infer logically, as when one lives in a one-parish town, but in some cases not so much, as in rural areas and cities without clearly defined neighbourhoods. One would think that after the spates of recent parish closures in so many dioceses the chanceries would be a little more forthright about this issue that all pastoral care of the faithful would be keeping in accordance with the canons, but I’ve seen nothing. The laity of the suppressed parishes just seemed to go wherever pleased them thereafter. That said, though, I’ve heard no juridical complaints either, making me think that the pastors in my area must have some sort of agreement among themselves.

I think when you have many Catholics that are just not attending Mass period anymore, it is probably a rule that is not enforced in many cases. I also question if in some cases the “personal” parish rule is extended farther than intended. For example, when my family was attending my dad’s childhood parish that he had attended since his elementary school days (perhaps earlier).

 

[FrDavid96]

Father I am confused by your answer. Are you saying that a priest isn’t allowed to accept children into religious preparation and reception from another parish?
I am in a strange situation. Technically the boundaries for our parish is in another county(and diocese) than the parish we are registered. When I called our diocese to find out what parish we belonged the person I talked to was totally confused. She named the parish we are registered. She obviously did not know about parishes having boundaries. The Bishop of the diocese we belong to has reminded us that we belong to his diocese if any of our son’s were interested in the priesthood.

Does Canon Law preclude you from registering in a parish that you do not belong to by territory. Can the Bishop excuse you? Can the parish Church you register ignore that you belong to another parish?

Parish registration has nothing to do with parish membership. Registration is nothing more than a list of people maintained at the parish office—it is meaningless as far as canon law is concerned. It does no more to confer parish membership than does being a “follower” on the parish’s social network profile.

People who answer the phones at diocesan offices are not necessarily experts in this sort of thing. That’s nothing against them, it’s simply not their job, any more than it’s the job of a receptionist at the doctor’s office to write a prescription.

Theoretically, one could register at a parish in Moscow Russia and another in Sydney Australia, but live in Chicago. Registration means nothing.

What does matter is parish membership, and that’s determined by territory. A Catholic is a member of the parish where he lives. Again, this is like civil law with regard to city, county, and state boundaries.

Part of me wonders: why is it so difficult for Catholics to understand that parishes are territories? I think that part of the answer is that in our contemporary society, many of us are members of all kinds of groups. If I “register” as a member of the auto club, I get a card, and I am a member. If I register with the Raccoon Lodge, I become a member. If I register with the scout group, I become a member. It’s difficult for people to understand that in Catholic law, being “registered” with a parish means nothing—yes, literally nothing.

As a Catholic, you are a member of the diocese where you live, and you are a member of the parish where you live. Registration (or, for that matter, attendance) has nothing to do with it. It really is that simple.

I saved your opening question for the end. No, there’s nothing preventing a parish from welcoming non-parishioners (i.e. those who live outside the territory) into their religious education classes. However, when it comes to actually administering the sacraments, there are times when parish membership is extremely relevant—and admittedly yes, there are also times when it does not matter. With regard to weddings, it can even make the difference between a valid marriage, and an invalid attempt at marriage.

One must also understand that while a parish might welcome non-parishioners into their programs, each parish (each pastor) is responsible for the people who are actually members. That means that there is no guarantee that what works today will not be a problem later. I’ll use myself as an example. If you ask me whether or not your children can join my parish religious education classes, I’ll tell you this “they’re always welcome to join the class, but they cannot receive First Communion here. You have to go to your own proper pastor for that.”

What readers/posters here need to understand is that Catholics have a right to the sacraments from their own proper pastors, and pastors have a responsibility for the pastoral care of their own parishioners. When parish territories are ignored, those guarantees are not always there.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

With regard to weddings, it can even make the difference between a valid marriage, and an invalid attempt at marriage.

I assume this is if permission is not granted by the actual parish priest for a marriage to occur? When in comes to weddings, should the marriage take place in bride’s territorial parish, groom’s, or can it be in one the parents’ territorial parishes? Sometimes, with young people you are moving around a lot with college and career choices and the parents’ parish would actually feel like the one you would approach for a marriage (especially if that location is also a better site for the majority of the family travel-wise).

 

[z_0101]

Another problem would be, if you have children, a **priest is not allowed accept **

them into the RCIA/First Communion/Confirmation classes if you are not living within the boundaries of his parish.
z_0101;12282864:

You might want to double check that as I don’t think that is true for every Diocese.

The Code of Canon Law applies to every diocese.

Respectfully FrDavid96, would you provide link.
Vatican - English - Code of Canon Law

I seem unable to find this provision in the code. It is an absolutely huge volume of work and I’m sure I’ve simply missed the entry and even the search engine missed it.

Can. 102 §1. Domicile is acquired by that residence within the territory of a certain parish or at least of a diocese, which either is joined with the intention of remaining there permanently unless called away or has been protracted for five complete years.

§2. Quasi-domicile is acquired by residence within the territory of a certain parish or at least of a diocese, which either is joined with the intention of remaining there for at least three months unless called away or has in fact been protracted for three months.
.

This page from “Canon Law Made Easy” should answer all your questions about what a parish is including citations from canon law: canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/10/24/is-every-catholic-church-a-parish/

(and hopefully will save Fr. David a little typing on a busy Sunday!).

Thank you FrDavid96 for the copy work. I had already read the canon as you listed. Also, thank you SusipeMeDomine for the link to one annotation of the canon. Not being a canon law expert, such information is valuable for proper understanding of canon law.

Unfortunately, both of these only refer to the establishment of the parish, a person’s residency within a parish, and the Pastor’s responsibility within that parish to the members therein.
What I don’t see is the explicit statement to support Discerning13’s comment that
“a **priest is not allowed accept **them into the RCIA/First Communion/Confirmation classes if you are not living within the boundaries of his parish”

Please, do not take offense here, I’m only trying to understand how one is supporting the above statement when there has been no such language presented.

Take the situation within our three local parishes…
Parish A = Preschool thru 6th grade, High School
Parish B = Preschool thru 6th grade
Parish C = Preschool thru 6th grade

From the arguments that have been made, No students from Parish B nor C can be allowed into the High School in A because it has the faith formation classes for confirmation. The Chaplin assigned to the High School reports directly to the Pastor in A.
Parents in A, B, or C are not allowed to send their children to the other parish preschools or elementary schools (a to b or c; b to a or c; c to a or b) because each school has the first communion formation? And the same being true of those parents that send their children to public schools, they are required to send their children to the parish program of the area where they live?

If you can support the statement then is my Pastor going to have a coronary event when I tell him this and 2/3 of the high school students will have to be expelled along with a large number of the elementary school. As for our RCIA program… the three parishes will have to shut down the joint program and start three separate programs. If they refuse, I guess my only recourse will be to the Archbishop - good thing I know him thru the DRE program.
I guess I’ll have to resign from the Parish council as will half the members of the board, all of the members of the finance committee, and I have no idea what we’re going to do with the Hispanic ministry… and of course we will have to have the Archbishop immediately set up an investigation into the whole matter to see what other violations have occurred.

(oh, btw, in some states the public school districts are not “set-in-stone.” For example in NE, one can opt out of the local public school district and apply for admission to another district. This isn’t an automatic enrollment for the selected district (unlike if you attend your district), and many districts have waiting lists. I have a friend that has placed their 3 year old on the waiting list for the district he wants the child to attend (and good district too) with the hope that by the time his little one reaches the age to attend kindergarten a slot will be available.)