Can one be excommunicated for Murder of a born person?

[childofmary1143]

Given the right circumstances I have been told that abortion is an excommunicationable offense. However my Dad asked me if the same would apply to killing a born person?

I can’t see how it wouldn’t but I NEVER hear it mentioned.

 

[jmcrae]

Given the right circumstances I have been told that abortion is an excommunicationable offense. However my Dad asked me if the same would apply to killing a born person?

I can’t see how it wouldn’t but I NEVER hear it mentioned.

If you commit a murder you have to go to Confession before you can receive Holy Communion again, but unless the person you murdered was a priest or some other important official in the Church, you would not be excommunicated.

Excommunication in the case of abortion is there in order to emphasize the seriousness of this crime. Think about it - the unborn child is equal in rank to the Pope, in our view of things.

Pretty amazing, isn’t it?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Given the right circumstances I have been told that abortion is an excommunicationable offense. However my Dad asked me if the same would apply to killing a born person?

I can’t see how it wouldn’t but I NEVER hear it mentioned.

Try assaulting the Pope - that’s an excommunication offence (but you have to be Catholic and over 16 to “qualify”)​

This might help: ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c1364-1399.htm

It’s not that easy to be excommunicated - see also ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c1311-1363.htm

 

[childofmary1143]

If you commit a murder you have to go to Confession before you can receive Holy Communion again, but unless the person you murdered was a priest or some other important official in the Church, you would not be excommunicated.

Excommunication in the case of abortion is there in order to emphasize the seriousness of this crime. Think about it - the unborn child is equal in rank to the Pope, in our view of things.

Pretty amazing, isn’t it?

Stupid is more like it. I base that on the fact that what the church is saying is that we aren’t equal then. Aren’t we all people? Isn’t all our souls important to God? The church is sending a message that it isn’t. If you don’t believe me then read the Poll that I am going to do.

 

[teajay]

I think it has something to do with the fact that in all societies murder is a crime so the civil punishment is disincentive enough, but with abortion, the church penalty is higher to compensate for the fact that many jurisdictions don’t punish it at all. I still don’t agree with it though as I believe that excommunication should be assessed in isolation from civil penalties and not compensate for apparent defects in it.

 

[tee_eff_em]

NB: I AM NOT A CANON LAWYER

My :twocents: : I believe the grave punishment is imposed due to the gravity of the offense. Abortion can be a secretive offense, with very few people (the mother, the abortionist, perhaps the father) ever having been aware of the pregnancy. And, it may be committed in the (futile) attempt to “cover up” or “rectify” a previous sin (ie fornication or adultery). As an offense more grave, so is the penalty.

A similarly grave penalty, excommunication latae sententiae, is incurred by a priest who absolves a partner in a sin against the sixth commandment. Such a sin is not, of course, inabsoluble – But absolution by a partner is sooo secretive and sneaky, it seems an attempt to “put one over” on God, which you just can’t do (not to mention that one is unlikely to receive prudent counsel from a partner in sin).

:twocents:
tee

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Stupid is more like it. I base that on the fact that what the church is saying is that we aren’t equal then. Aren’t we all people? Isn’t all our souls important to God? The church is sending a message that it isn’t. If you don’t believe me then read the Poll that I am going to do.

Dear Friend,
Perhaps you should consider the actions of Herod, who murdered the Holy Innocents.
Surely an unborn child is completly innocent, and thus Holy.
So abbortion sets the perpetrator, and ALL accessories on a level with Herod.
Excommunication is a minimal chastisement. Didn’t Our Lord say something about millstones and sea?

 

[FCEGM]

Stupid is more like it. I base that on the fact that what the church is saying is that we aren’t equal then. Aren’t we all people? Isn’t all our souls important to God? The church is sending a message that it isn’t. If you don’t believe me then read the Poll that I am going to do.

This reminds me of the case of the crime boss John Gotti who, apparently, died unrepentant and wasn’t allowed a Catholic burial. So, murdering the unborn and the born both carry eternal consequences if no forgiveness is sought.

 

[Corki]

Stupid is more like it. I base that on the fact that what the church is saying is that we aren’t equal then. Aren’t we all people? Isn’t all our souls important to God? The church is sending a message that it isn’t. If you don’t believe me then read the Poll that I am going to do.

First of all, the Catholic Church does not define people in terms of “equal”. I am not equal to my husband, my parents or my children. I am very different on many different levels. What the Church says is that all life is equally, and inherently to be protected. We are all entitled to equal dignity and respect.

The excommunication penalty, in my opinion, doesn’t mean that one life if less valuable than another. However, the Church recognizes that to murder the most helpless and undefended among us, the unborn, is a particularly henious sin. Not only is the child being deprived of life, he is deprived of even the very first Sacrament.

Note that this is an excommunication that, in the US at least, can be lifted by most priests in the context of sacramental Confession.

 

[Eden]

It sounds to me, from the follow-up post by the OP, that he/she already had an answer but started this thread to be confrontational.

In any event, the reason that getting an abortion results in an automatic excommunication is that all aborted children are innocent and thus, abortion is one of the most evil crimes possible to commit. In the case of a born victim of murder, the innocence of the victim cannot “automatically” be determined. For instance, if a Catholic kills someone in self-defense, such a murder is not “equal” to killing a completely, entirely and unquestionably innocent unborn baby.

The conditions for excommunication following an abortion are that the woman must be Catholic, obviously; must be over 16; must have gotten the abortion of her own free-will, not under duress; and must have been aware that such an action would excommunicate them from the Church.

 

[JimO]

Stupid is more like it.

What kind of response is this? It seems to me that jmcrae was giving a sincere response. As an OP you have a responsibility to be more charitable given that you asked for (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Della]

We also have to take intention into account. If we intend to murder someone with no intention of repenting of it (as in the case of abortion), then how can we think that the Church would consider such a person a Catholic in good standing? And what makes abortion particularly bad, along with the things already mentioned by others, is the fact that it is an intentional murder of an innocent person, not merely an accident or in self defense or the execution of a criminal.

 

[Valke2]

If you commit a murder you have to go to Confession before you can receive Holy Communion again, but unless the person you murdered was a priest or some other important official in the Church, you would not be excommunicated.

Excommunication in the case of abortion is there in order to emphasize the seriousness of this crime. Think about it - the unborn child is equal in rank to the Pope, in our view of things.

Pretty amazing, isn’t it?

That is bizarre reasoning. Isn’t murder of an indiviual person a serious enough crime to warrant excommunication? And if it isn’t then how can abortion be. How can abortion be viewed as “more seroius” than murder?

 

[tee_eff_em]

That is bizarre reasoning. Isn’t murder of an indiviual person a serious enough crime to warrant excommunication? And if it isn’t then how can abortion be. How can abortion be viewed as “more seroius” than murder?

What is bizarre to me is a bunch of forum-folk trying to devise or discover the moral calculus to support these sanctions.

Do we seek to avoid an action because it is an excommunicable offense, as opposed to being *only *(“only!”) a mortal sin!?

Surely, we ought seek avoid *both *sorts of actions, do you not agree?

:twocents:
tee

 

[jmcrae]

How can abortion be viewed as “more seroius” than murder?

How can it not be? If you’re a “bully” for beating up on a 95 lb weakling, then what should we call you if you murder someone who only weighs a few ounces?

Of course it’s worse to murder someone who is completely helpless (or who isn’t allowed to fight back, in the case of clergy) than it is to murder someone who could fight back.

And in neither case are they getting off scot free - I don’t know what the penance for murder is in the Confessional, but in the legal system, it often takes life imprisonment, or even the death penalty in some parts of the United States.

 

[Valke2]

How can it not be? If you’re a “bully” for beating up on a 95 lb weakling, then what should we call you if you murder someone who only weighs a few ounces?

Of course it’s worse to murder someone who is completely helpless (or who isn’t allowed to fight back, in the case of clergy) than it is to murder someone who could fight back.

And in neither case are they getting off scot free - I don’t know what the penance for murder is in the Confessional, but in the legal system, it often takes life imprisonment, or even the death penalty in some parts of the United States.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that murderers get off scott free. I didn’t know that people were excommunicated for giving (having?) abortions. But if they are, it seems that they should also be excommunicated for murder. What difference does it make if your victims could fight back? How does that take the sin out of the realm of ex-communication? Maybe I am putting too much weight on the punishment of excommunication? Is there a harsher punishment that I don’t know about that would be applied to one who murdered a person outside the womb?

 

[tee_eff_em]

I didn’t know that people were excommunicated for giving (having?) abortions. But if they are …

Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Maybe I am putting too much weight on the punishment of excommunication? Is there a harsher punishment that I don’t know about that would be applied to one who murdered a person outside the womb?

If the sin is unrepented: eternal damnation.

tee

 

[Valke2]

If the sin is unrepented: eternal damnation.

tee

why isn’t there the opportunity to repent for the sin of abotion?

 

[tee_eff_em]

BTW, several people have indicated that murdering a priest, cleric or other high Church official would also result in excommunication. It may, but the only one so automatically punished by Canon Law is one “who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff” (against a bishop receives an inderdict, and against “a cleric or religious out of contempt for the faith, or the Church, or ecclesiastical authority or the ministry” receives a “just penalty” (which if a tribunal so judged could be excommunication))

cf Canon 1370

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

why isn’t there the opportunity to repent for the sin of abotion?

Who says there is not? Excommunication is not a permanent and final state (it would hardly be useful as a corrective measure if it were) – It can be lifted and absolution received.

tee