Can ones salvation ever be "lost"?

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What’s your view?

Can salvation ever be “lost?”
Scripture says that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So yes, it can be lost, forever. You are doomed.

First I would think you would have to know God as in the form of the Holy Spirit . You would have had to hear Him, be moved by Him. And then so completely turn away from God, in such a purposeful manner as to spit in His Face. Your intent is to destroy the Holy Spirit that lives within each of us.

This is almost an undescribable sin. Yet, I think we will recognize it when we come across a person who has commited it. You will be able to feel its evil grasp. Feel the darkness. A darkness so deep that there is no Light, Light as defined within the catholic catachism.

I know one person who I truley believe has committed this sin. I pray I am wrong and I pray for her .
 
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Paul tells "saved " Christians “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” Ephesians 5:5-6

Paul addresses the Ephesians as “saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus” yet he warns that they could lose their inheritance

Here the writer of Hebrews says that a man sanctified by the blood of Christ could lose his salvation.
Note: The writer includes himself.

Hebrews 10:26 For if** we** sin deliberately after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries….how much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace?..It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

What about someone who willfully commits adultery or fornication is he still saved?
Would you say that the only people committing adultery and fornication “were never really saved?”
The term “saved” in the sense of “once saved, always saved” is a Protestant creation. It has never been part of the Catholic understanding unless meant in the sense of the “predestined” which does not mean determined in any fatalistic sense, but foreknown by God, which is altogether different. God knows who will be saved; we don’t.

In Philippians 2:12 Paul says: Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

If we knew we were saved, we wouldn’t have to endure the fear and trembling Paul instructs us about.
 
Scripture says that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So yes, it can be lost, forever. You are doomed.

First I would think you would have to know God as in the form of the Holy Spirit . You would have had to hear Him, be moved by Him. And then so completely turn away from God, in such a purposeful manner as to spit in His Face. Your intent is to destroy the Holy Spirit that lives within each of us.

This is almost an undescribable sin. Yet, I think we will recognize it when we come across a person who has commited it. You will be able to feel its evil grasp. Feel the darkness. A darkness so deep that there is no Light, Light as defined within the catholic catachism.

I know one person who I truley believe has committed this sin. I pray I am wrong and I pray for her .
I doubt such a person exists. I think of it more as one spitting in God’s face, as you say, in his last breath, for as long as one has breath, he has the ability to repent and be saved. The only other way I can see this is someone who so utterly turns from God that God sees he will never repent no matter how many chances or how much time he is given, but only God knows that, because only God can see the future. And I may be wrong on both counts, but I think it’s important not to treat anyone as if they had committed such a sin, just as you say, because then we will not pray for them, despairing of there being any hope for that individual. My way of praying for anyone is to give them to our Lady. I find it best for her to look out for all my needs and to help all those I have concern for.
 
What’s your view?

Can salvation ever be “lost?”
Obviously - as you must know well as an informed, practicing Catholic 😃 Most of our protestant brethren have the odd error of imputed, exterior justification in their doctrine, according to which salvation cannot be lost because it was merited by Christ…but that’s wrong, unsound, and unscriptural.

I wish it weren’t and they were right. But no. Justification is more complex, and salvation, merited once for all by Christ, can be lost. Christ himself teaches this, and to say otherwise is to contradict Christ.
 
I wish it weren’t and they were right.
I don’t think you really wish that if you stop and think about it. Wouldn’t it amount to a diminishment of the faith as we now know it in all its beauty, wisdom and fullness? It would undermine so many things that the Catholic faith holds dear.
 
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 Do I believe you can besaved and then at some point in the future no longer be saved? Yes. The bible seems to indicate that one who walks away from God and abandons the gospel can and will lose their salvation.
In addition to apostasy, this is exactly what mortal sin IS. It is deliberately, knowingly walking away from God by choosing to engage in activity that is contrary to His life in us.
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 Now, do I believe that we can commit a sin or set or sins apart from leaving the faith that causes us to lose our salvation? I am undecided but tend to lean towards no. The entire context of the bible tends to make me believe that a truly redeemed follow of Christ will not lose their salvation through any individual sin, namely because the truly reborn among us is no longer capable of committing the kind of heinous crimes that such a thing would entail. It's a tough subject because the "where they really saved to begin with" argument always comes up, and I tendto believe someone who goes out and rapes and murders was never truly born again.
It seems you suffer from a deficient understanding of what it means to be “born again”. All of the lists of sins in the NT that result in failing to inherit the Kingdom are written to “born again” persons!
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So yes, based on the bible I believe we can "lose" our salvation through our free will. I lean towards believing that a truly reborn soul, assuming he perserveres in the faith, will remain sealed through the blood of Christ.
I think it is a poor way of phrasing it. We don’t complete our salvation in this life, so how can we “lose” that which has not been attained?

Phil 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

A sealed person can surely go to hell. The seal, though an indellible mark, will not preserve one who does not persevere in the faith.
 
This cannot be as it would place limitations of the power of both God and Christ’s death. Such a thing would contradict the entire meaning of the gospel at it’s very foundation.
No, it does not. The fact that a person becomes born again (enlightened) does not guarantee that they will ever be united with their reward that is kept imperishable for them in heaven. God gives us the freedom to deny Him any time we choose. The passages on apostasy are written to those who have “once been enlightened” (baptized) and “tasted of the heavenly gift” (eucharist) and still fall away from the faith.
I agree. My only quetion has always been what exactly constitutes full blown rebellion against the faith? Does it require a complete denouncement of faith, or merely a “backsliding” episode?

I hope to always be graced with true faith and never have to worry about it 😃
A backsliding episode IS a denouncement of the faith. The issue is whether one can return to the author and finisher of the faith.
 
Have thought “I am saved” is not accurate. We are being saved, we will be saved & we are working on our salvation.

I would think one is not “saved” until judged as such. We don’t entirely have salvation; it is a work in process every day. To assume you are entirely “saved” is dangerous - one may slip up big time & sin mortally. Sin is a willful separation from God. We can all still sin at any time. We must choose DAILY to avoid sin.
 
In addition to apostasy, this is exactly what mortal sin IS. It is deliberately, knowingly walking away from God by choosing to engage in activity that is contrary to His life in us.
I don’t believe in the concepts of mortal and venial sins in the catholic sense, so this really holds no weight with me. It’s a very categorical concept that reeks of human construct. The bblical evidence, the few passages that read with a certain mindset could indicate such a concept, are remarkably weak IMO.
It seems you suffer from a deficient understanding of what it means to be “born again”. All of the lists of sins in the NT that result in failing to inherit the Kingdom are written to “born again” persons!
The catholic position only holds up if we assume the following:

1: A drunkard is anyone who gets drunk once after being born again, an idolator is anyone who in a single moment of weakness puts something before God, etc.

2: If no to #1, then that a truly born again christian could go out and chronically commit such sins over and over with full knowledge of God’s saving grace. I don’t believe that to be the case aside from someone who completely abandons their faith altogether willfully.

Anyone who goes out and is constantly committing the sins mentioned dismissed their faith before doing them, otherwise they wouldnt be doing them. Thus I believe my belief still holds. I don’t believe in mortal and venial sense in the one-time sense because it seems to me that Paul isnt calling a one-time drunk a drunkard but rather someone who has abandoned the word and has fallen into drunkeness. I don’t believe committing one of those sins in a particular moment of weakness damns you.
I think it is a poor way of phrasing it. We don’t complete our salvation in this life, so how can we “lose” that which has not been attained?
Agreed, we don’t do anything. That’s the point. Christ bought our salvation for us and hands it out as a free gift. We can do nothing to merit our salvation nor can we “complete” it. We can reject that gift, but once accepted we can’t do anything more to add onto the finished work.
Phil 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
A sealed person can surely go to hell. The seal, though an indellible mark, will not preserve one who does not persevere in the faith.
Our work in Christ is never finished until we are dead. That’s entirely different from our salvation. God saves us and puts us to work. He doesnt put us to work with the carrot of salvation dangling in front of us. I agree one can choose to walk away entirely through their own free will, but that is different from what you’re talking about.
 
A backsliding episode IS a denouncement of the faith. The issue is whether one can return to the author and finisher of the faith.
Considering that backsliding is different for everyone who is at different points in their walk with God I find it impossible to believe this as an absolue truth. At best, we have to trust God to judge the intent of every backslider and can’t simply throw them all under the catholic nortal sin bus.

For instance, a 30-year alcoholic who comes to know God and is saved is very likely to, in a moment of weakness, take a drink or get drunk again. Is that the same as a lifelong christian who has never had alcohol and sddenly just decides to go out and get smashed? Obviously not.

I’ll leave it up to God to judge our hearts and what constitutes walking away for each person.
 
=BA11;10461952]I don’t believe in the concepts of mortal and venial sins in the catholic sense, so this really holds no weight with me. It’s a very categorical concept that reeks of human construct. The bblical evidence, the few passages that read with a certain mindset could indicate such a concept, are remarkably weak IMO.
What do you do with 1 John 5:16-17

“If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sins is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin but there is sin which is not mortal.”
 
@BA11

In your opinion?

Your opinion?

Sorry, I’ll keep following the humble opinion of the Church Fathers and in general of 20 centuries of saints and theologians that have saved countless souls.

You can, of course, go ahead and not believe in mortal vs. venial sins. When orthodox Christian Sacred Tradition is “remarkably weak in someone’s opinion”, their opinion is as solid as their knowledge of that Tradition they refuse to believe in.

A “born again” Christian is a Christian that has been baptized. Baptism is rebirth by water and spirit. And there are two aspects to that justification: one being a free gift from God (causa efficiens), merited by Christ (causa meritoria); the other being an interior sanctifying quality or formal cause (causa formalis) in the soul itself, which it makes truly just and holy in the sight of God. St. Paul emphasizes the fact that grace is purely gratuitous; that no merely natural good works can merit grace; but he does not state that no other acts in their nature and purport predisposing are necessary for justification over and above the requisite faith. Whenever faith justifies it is not faith alone, but faith made operative and replenished by charity (Galatians 5:6, “fides, quae per caritatem operatur”). Scripture declares that we must work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12), it is impossible to regard our individual salvation as something fixed and certain. Why did St. Paul (1 Corinthians 9:27) chastise his body if not afraid lest, having preached to others, he might himself “become a castaway”? He says expressly (1 Corinthians 4:4): “For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.”

In the Protestant system, however, remission of sin is no real forgiveness, no blotting out of guilt. Sin is merely cloaked and concealed by the imputed merits of Christ; God no longer imputes it, whilst in reality it continues under cover its miserable existence till the hour of death. Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two. In a man who is at once sinful and just, half holy and half unholy, we cannot possibly recognize a masterpiece of God’s omnipotence, but only a wretched caricature, the deformity of which is exaggerated all the more by the violent introduction of the justice of Christ.

Due to the nature of this sanctifying grace, of this gratia actualis, it can be lost by an act of infidelity towards God. This act must necessarily be on a grave matter, with full knowledge and deliberate consent. This is what St. John the Evangelist, the beloved disciple and guardian of the Blessed Virgin, begins to tech us in his First Letter, when he teaches: “All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death” - in the original Christian Bible translated from the original into Latin by Church Father Jerome, “omnis iniquitas peccatum est, et est peccatum non ad mortem”.

Thus, disbelieving in the difference between mortal and venial sin is not so much to reject the teaching authority of the Church, but to reject the teaching of the apostles. We all know what that means. Christ taught us so in the Holy Gospel according to s. Luke, 10:16.

Thank to God’s mercy, the Father remitted all judgment to the Son, and the Son made sure to tell us time and again: “I do not judge anyone, I did not come to condemn the world, but so that the world may be saved through me. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance”. And those who, out of faith in some odd novelty, call themselves righteous, should be very careful indeed, lest they be like the blind man claiming that he could see.

Christ taught Peter that God does not forgive once, but seventy times seven, or as many times as needed. What is lost after Baptism (though only partially lost, since we are well aware of the temporary gift of gratia actualis) can be recovered through the valid, legitimate successors of the Apostles, those who can trace the laying of hands all the way back throughout the 20 centuries of the Church, back to the Apostles, the same Apostles to whom Christ taught in life to pray to the Father: “forgive us our sins” and after His resurrection:
As the Father has sent me, so I send you.
Receive the Holy Spirit.
Those whose sins you remit, are remitted.
Those whose sins you retain, are retained.
In this, Christ granted them a power that was extraordinary, for the teachers of the Law were right in saying: “only God can forgive sins!”, and yet Christ taught: “I have the authority to forgive sin”, thus - as his accusers said - “making himself equal to God”. It is this extraordinary power that He gave not to all, but to the Apostles and to their successors. This is what we read in the writings of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers. This is what the Church of Christ has done for almost two thousand years.

But of course, you can hold on to your opinion (which, of course, is not yours, but a teaching you received from someone) and not do what the Church does. Who knows…perhaps you are right and Holy Church has done it all wrong for 20 centuries, and Christ has let His Church go astray in such horrible ways, and the Holy Spirit has kept away from it. I’ve heard this, too, said by some Christians, and with a broad smile they’ve showed me the Biblical passages supporting their opinion, and with unchanged smile they’ve told me: “Catholics, as you see, are hellbound.”

Perhaps in my astounding weakness and sinfulness I may not win the race I am running. But I’d rather not despair, not judge, not condemn, but “hold on to the Tradition that was passed unto us, either in writing or by word of mouth”.
 
Ba11,
Just thinking, if anyone should have saved it would have been the 12.
Yet about Judas it was said, “Better for that man had he never been born.” (Mk.14;21)

There is also mention in the bible about an unpardonable or unforgivable sin.
Then if one commits this sin, the person would not be saved.
 
What do you do with 1 John 5:16-17

“If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sins is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin but there is sin which is not mortal.”
It’s either contrasting sins that have been repented of versus those that have not, or discussing the unpardonable sin (which is technically the same thing, since unrepetance is the mark of blasphemy of the holy spirit). The bible clearly describes three types of sins: Those repented of which are forgiven, those unrepented of which are not forgiven and the unpardonable sin, blasphemy of the holy ghost (which is very literally spitting in the face of the holy spirit and rejecting it until your death, marking a lifetime of unrepented sins). The point is that praying for a heart that lacks repetance is useless.

The conept of mortal and venial sins contradicts numerous other passages in scripture.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

“For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”

“The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty.”

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”

“And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses”

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

“For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Romans 7:14–25 describes the struggles all believers will have with sin, and follows it with "“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Unless you are born again you will be subjected to the second death. The argument of mortal vs venial is like saying I only have a little terminal cancer vs I have a lot of terminal cancer and that one will not ultimately lead to death. The only distinction God makes is hat some sin will merit greater punishment in hell than others for those who do not repent. Nowhere in the bible does anyone suggest that unrepetant sin is not damning, no matter how small. In contast, it is littered with verses describing how believers will continue to fall short and how there is no damnation for those who believe and cry out for forgiveness.
 
@BA11

In your opinion?

Your opinion?
My opinion is formed by the bible. I pray that God shapes my beliefs as I read his word. I’ve been convicted of more than a few wrong beliefs I had over the years that contradicted scripture.

I consider the words of men just as the bible does: Unreliable and corruptable.

And to argue the uniformity of opinion of the ECF is, at best, historically inaccurate. A thorough analysis reveals just as much disagreement regarding doctrine as we have today. Quoting the ECF is an exercise in futility.
 
And to argue the uniformity of opinion of the ECF is, at best, historically inaccurate. A thorough analysis reveals just as much disagreement regarding doctrine as we have today. Quoting the ECF is an exercise in futility.
Ohhhhhh Really? 😃

Here is what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.

. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore
Letter to the Ephesians 20.

And, oh dear…look at what the Didache says about Baptism:

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days
Didache 7:1.

And, oh, look what Clement of Rome has to say about Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone:

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30.

“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31.

“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.

More on the way…
 
Compare what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:

…the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ…
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.

to what John wrote in his Gospel just twenty years before:

John 6 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

And, oh my, look at this verse Luke wrote in Acts:

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

to this statement by Barnabus probably only a decade or so later:

“Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.” (The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 11

How did these early first generation christians describe themselves?

Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church
Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2.

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ***, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath
The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8.

Acts 2:42 - from the Church’s inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the “breaking of the bread”) to fulfill Jesus’ command “do this in remembrance of me.”
Acts 20:28 - Paul charges the Church elders to “feed” the Church of the Lord, that is, with the flesh and blood of Christ.

And around 60 years after Luke penned Acts:
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66.

Shall I go on?
:cool:
 
Ohhhhhh Really? 😃
Yes, really. It is futile because they, like us, differed amongst themselves. Quoting one who believed in the real presence, only to have someone turn around and post ones that argue symbolism, is a waste of time. Thre were ECF who argued against baptism, the trinity, the canon, tradition over scripture and vice-versa, etc. It’s an exercise in selective quotations. Additionally, many of the ECF routinely changed their stanes as later writings reveal a difference of opinion. The classic example is Augustus, who at different points in his life believed the Eucharist to be symbolic, the real presence and what we now call transubstantiation (and yes, he made a distinction as some protstants do today). How is it useful to quote the changing opinions of christians like us from 1500+ years ago?
 
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