Can our family still be catholic?

[TarkanAttila]

90Domer, while I won’t argue whether Church teaching or the TOB (which, what I do know of it, seems in line with Church teaching) say IVF causes emotional or spiritual wounds to the boy, it does cause spiritual wounds of some kind for which you have already asked forgiveness and repented. You’ve already resolved to be contrite about the issue. It’s a moot point.

What isn’t, however, is when the boy ever finds out. He will find out about it, if only on the Last Day. How would he feel about it? And what will you do about it?

I don’t know how to raise your child. And God already has it taken care of. He knows you are contrite. But the truth will come out to him one way or the other. Do what you decide is best for your son. But I would, at some point, break it to him, gently and penitently, how he was conceived. There has to be a time, and he has the right to know, even if it’s not until he’s thirty years old.

I have confessed my sins not only to the local Father, but also to my mother and my sister (earthlywise). It’s always like taking a cold shower. But it’s a relieving one.

 

[agapewolf]

90Domer, while I won’t argue whether Church teaching or the TOB (which, what I do know of it, seems in line with Church teaching) say IVF causes emotional or spiritual wounds to the boy, it does cause spiritual wounds of some kind for which you have already asked forgiveness and repented. You’ve already resolved to be contrite about the issue. It’s a moot point.

What isn’t, however, is when the boy ever finds out. He will find out about it, if only on the Last Day. How would he feel about it? And what will you do about it?

I don’t know how to raise your child. And God already has it taken care of. He knows you are contrite. But the truth will come out to him one way or the other. Do what you decide is best for your son. But I would, at some point, break it to him, gently and penitently, how he was conceived. There has to be a time, and he has the right to know, even if it’s not until he’s thirty years old.

I have confessed my sins not only to the local Father, but also to my mother and my sister (earthlywise). It’s always like taking a cold shower. But it’s a relieving one.

It is not a moot point. I’m talking about the spiritual wounds of the child here.

And even if we confess sins, we still suffer consequences, very real ones, for the sins. A person conceieved outside of wedlock doesn’t just disappear when someone confesses to pre-marital sex. Outcomes of sins don’t just disappear even though forgiven.

This is what Anointing of the sick does-- Sometimes healing the spiritual wounds causes healing of the physical wounds.

 

[agapewolf]

Regarding TOB as church teaching…it was the official Wednesday audiences of the pope for 4 years. How is that not official?

 

[90Domer]

I understand your point. Truly, I see where you are coming from. Sadly, I am not comfortable enough with the theology to make the call for me and my husband. I am honestly deferring to my husband in this one.

My son was born premature and diagnosed on the autism spectrum. I cannot tell you the endless number of times I have beat myself up over our decision and blamed myself for his autism. Did IVF cause his prematurity and autism? Probably not, especially given that we were part of a huge study that showed no significant difference in birth defects (at this clinic) versus the standard population. Also, my hubby is somewhere on the spectrum. Guess what tends to run in families?

Next time I go to confession with a native English speaking priest–we often go to a Polish shrine and confess to the beautiful priests from Poland–I will bring this up. I will even print this out and have the priest read it.

I can tell you that son knows we did things “a little differently” in order to conceive him, as he so hoped for a sibling. We told him while nothing is impossible with God, the chances were highly unlikely (I had a funny joke I was going to insert here, but I really fear you wouldn’t find it funny). Will we go further and give all the ugly details, hubby does not feel it is necessary. He’s the one with the infertility, so I bow to his feelings in that regard as well.

I have a feeling that the OP and her husband will come around to understanding Church views when they get older. I didn’t want her to feel all these conflicting emotions when she has a new baby. There will be plenty of time down the road for those to be sorted out. So, I did try to temper some of the feedback.

 

[90Domer]

Regarding TOB as church teaching…it was the official Wednesday audiences of the pope for 4 years. How is that not official?

My husband said it wasn’t raised to the level of doctrine.

 

[agapewolf]

My husband said it wasn’t raised to the level of doctrine.

There is nothing conflicting with doctrine. It’s an explanation of doctrine. You keep arguing this and it doesnt’ make sense.

It was an official church address-- therefore teaching. I don’t even know if things are “Raised” to “level of doctrine”.

Things are raised to dogma-- but that happens when there are heresies to be corrected.

 

[90Domer]

It is not a moot point. I’m talking about the spiritual wounds of the child here.

And even if we confess sins, we still suffer consequences, very real ones, for the sins. A person conceieved outside of wedlock doesn’t just disappear when someone confesses to pre-marital sex. Outcomes of sins don’t just disappear even though forgiven.

This is what Anointing of the sick does-- Sometimes healing the spiritual wounds causes healing of the physical wounds.

At some point, we will talk to a priest about this who we know is well-versed in these situations. However, as my husband rightly said, I think son will suffer most from us beating ourselves up spiritually than any actual spiritual harm done to him as a result of our IVF, if there was any done at all. Once again, that is not doctrine. It is either one or a group of people’s interpretation of TOB. None of these teachings are infallible.

 

[agapewolf]

At some point, we will talk to a priest about this who we know is well-versed in these situations. However, as my husband rightly said, I think son will suffer most from us beating ourselves up spiritually than any actual spiritual harm done to him as a result of our IVF, if there was any done at all. Once again, that is not doctrine. It is either one or a group of people’s interpretation of TOB. None of these teachings are infallible.

um, actually, all of the material has an impramatur.

Seriously— look into what the Sacrament of Healing is for.

 

[90Domer]

um, actually, all of the material has an impramatur.

Seriously— look into what the Sacrament of Healing is for.

Imprimatur only means that something can be printed (as in a book) and it is endorsed by the Church. It does not mean that one is compelled to believe this. Once again, I am asking you where is this doctrine? I really don’t think this is. Not trying to argue with you. What you taught was not infallibly presented to be true.

 

[90Domer]

um, actually, all of the material has an impramatur.

Seriously— look into what the Sacrament of Healing is for.

Confession and Extreme Unction are both sacraments of healing. While what you write may be the case, the Church has not declared this doctine or dogma.

As a hypothetical, how would you quantify the “amount” of spiritual harm? Is it almost negligent? Is it huge? One thing I can “probably” say with certainty is that the amount of spiritual harm of these children is much less than, say, marital infidelity or abuse (where it is measurable/tangible/quantifiable).

 

[jwinch2]

What you taught was not infallibly presented to be true.

You have mentioned this a couple of times now. I urge caution. Authoritative teaching does not have to be infallibly defined by the Holy Father, or declared through an ecumenical council. Just war, contraception, etc. have not been infallibly defined or declared in a council, but we are still bound to accept them as teachings which rise to the level of the Magisterium and form our consciences accordingly.

 

[agapewolf]

Imprimatur only means that something can be printed (as in a book) and it is endorsed by the Church. It does not mean that one is compelled to believe this. Once again, I am asking you where is this doctrine? I really don’t think this is. Not trying to argue with you. What you taught was not infallibly presented to be true.

You are misguided in your use of these terms. I already said it-- look into what the sacrament of the sick/healing is FOR.

Fine-- if you want to split hairs-- this material also has a nahil obstat. The bishops are overseeing it all too. They fit into the teaching magisterium of the church.

This is the very nature that the body manifests the soul. Physical sickness remember, is a result of the original sin-- a spiritual sickness. It’s pretty basic really.

 

[90Domer]

You have mentioned this a couple of times now. I urge caution. Authoritative teaching does not have to be infallibly defined by the Holy Father, or declared through an ecumenical council. Just war, contraception, etc. have not been infallibly defined or declared in a council, but we are still bound to accept them as teachings which rise to the level of the Magisterium and form our consciences accordingly.

All true. Point is, and what I am trying to say in lay terms, TOB is not part of the Magesterium. It is a theological work, ala Jesus if Nazareth. It is an acceptance.

 

[agapewolf]

All true. Point is, and what I am trying to say in lay terms, TOB is not part of the Magesterium. It is a theological work, ala Jesus if Nazareth. It is an acceptance.

nope. Jesus of Nazereth was a book Joseph Ratzinger wrote before he became pope (and I think wrote a couple sequels after). He did not deliver it officially as church teaching.

JPII actually delivered TOB has OFFICIAL Wednesday audiences. That’s the difference.

 

[90Domer]

You are misguided in your use of these terms. I already said it-- look into what the sacrament of the sick/healing is FOR.

Fine-- if you want to split hairs-- this material also has a nahil obstat. The bishops are overseeing it all too. They fit into the teaching magisterium of the church.

This is the very nature that the body manifests the soul. Physical sickness remember, is a result of the original sin-- a spiritual sickness. It’s pretty basic really.

This is getting way too deep for me. I’m glad the bishops endorse it, but this view isn’t binding. You are certainly entitled to believe it, TOB Institute is entitled to teach it, but we are not “bound” to believe it.

And are you referring to Anointing of the Sick? Is that what you mean by sacrament of the sick? I have no idea what the later is about.

 

[agapewolf]

All true. Point is, and what I am trying to say in lay terms, TOB is not part of the Magesterium. It is a theological work, ala Jesus if Nazareth. It is an acceptance.

You are also missing a very important point here. TOB EXPLAINS DOCTRINE. TOB is the easier way to understand it all. It doesn’t mean that the stuff I learned from the TOB institute is not doctrine itself. I didn’t simply learn JUST TOB text there. You keep getting hung up on things as part of denial I think.

LOOK INTO THE SACRAMENT OF THE SICK! Read the catechism about it.

Remember-- physical ailments are from the downfall in the garden— a spiritual death.

 

[90Domer]

nope. Jesus of Nazereth was a book Joseph Ratzinger wrote before he became pope (and I think wrote a couple sequels after). He did not deliver it officially as church teaching.

JPII actually delivered TOB has OFFICIAL Wednesday audiences. That’s the difference.

Doesn’t matter. They are compelling and deserve respect, but they are not BINDING. And there is the rub. It is not binding–we do not have to believe it.

 

[agapewolf]

Doesn’t matter. They are compelling and deserve respect, but they are not BINDING. And there is the rub. It is not binding–we do not have to believe it.

Where in the world do you get this? It is official church teaching-- part of the magisterium.

and even so…why not believe it? You are missing out on possible healing for your kid out of denial.

 

[90Domer]

You are also missing a very important point here. TOB EXPLAINS DOCTRINE. TOB is the easier way to understand it all. It doesn’t mean that the stuff I learned from the TOB institute is not doctrine itself. I didn’t simply learn JUST TOB text there. You keep getting hung up on things as part of denial I think.

LOOK INTO THE SACRAMENT OF THE SICK! Read the catechism about it.

Remember-- physical ailments are from the downfall in the garden— a spiritual death.

I honestly think you or this Institute is interpreting or reading something into doctrine that isn’t there. I’m not even sure what you even wanted me to do. I’m not taking my kid to get anointed. We don’t have enough priests to help the dying.

 

[90Domer]

Where in the world do you get this? It is official church teaching-- part of the magisterium.

and even so…why not believe it? You are missing out on possible healing for your kid out of denial.

Please, can you get me to a site that allows me to read and digest this (hubby too). And I don’t believe it yet because I have not studied it to the extent I would like. And I don’t think my kid needs spiritual healing, period. I am not putting an autistic kid through something I feel I am not bound to believe. I will certainly change my mind once me and hubby study this further. But I won’t go on heresay. If I took that path with all the recommendations I got to treat autism (without studying them fist), there is a good chance my son would not be here now. I’m cautious.