Can people choose to be spriritual and live a loving life?

[GaryTaylor]

No I don’t. I believe that only God knows who receives salvation.

I can respect the TRUTH. Regardless who likes it or agrees with it, its still the Truth.

I don’t agree with it, but your entitiled to you opinion.

God Bless, Gary

 

[TedDC]

I can respect the TRUTH. Regardless who likes it or agrees with it, its still the Truth.

I don’t agree with it, but your entitiled to you opinion.

God Bless, Gary

How do you know that you have the Truth?

 

[Serap]

I can respect the TRUTH. Regardless who likes it or agrees with it, its still the Truth.

I don’t agree with it, but your entitiled to you opinion.

God Bless, Gary

But the CC has never stated that there is ONLY salvation in the Catholic Church

I don’t understand where you are coming from

 

[Curious_Seed]

I know people that believe there’s a God and live their life with kindness and compassion. They may have been raised Catholic or Protestant, but have chosen not to follow those faiths. They have chosen to live a good wholesome life knowing that there is a God, but they are not sure what God is.

They believe that all religions pray to the same God, and it’s a shame that so many wars are based on religion. They choose to not have any religion and choose to be spiritual.

Any thougths? Many good people feel this way.

How would you, or they, reconcile John 14:6?

Good, wholesome, spiritual, kind, compassionate, and unsure about God are a mosaic of adjectives insufficiently aligned with Luke 23:42; for Christians, that is the alpha and omega of it, according to Luke 23:43.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I would not know what the Church claims God has revealed.

You would not know?

Just read the Bible. That is what the Church claims God has revealed. It was this Church which discerned the codex of early Christian writings into the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

PR and Rence,

I applaud your charity between eachother! You guys are just going to have to agree to disagree b/c your debate is not going anywhere.

Rence is an extremely intelligent woman with a whole lot of compassion in her soul.

PR…you are a very passionate person who is on fire for the Catholic Church and good for you!

So guys…just agree to disagree…k???

:flowers:

I am here to engage others in dialogue regarding the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Coming to a forum and wanting to simply agree to disagree would seem to be a waste of time, don’t you think?

 

[GaryTaylor]

But the CC has never stated that there is ONLY salvation in the Catholic Church

I don’t understand where you are coming from

Your mistaken and here are the links.

This sole Church of Christ was entrusted to Peter and the other apostles. “This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him” (Second Vatican Council). Only in the Catholic Church can the fullness of the means of salvation be obtained.

Catholic doctrine teaches that membership in the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.

Catholic Catechism, par. 870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter * and by the bishops in communion with him.

Catholic Catechism, par. 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [LG 14; cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5.]

This isn’t some five-hundred year-old “outdated” teaching. My copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church contains a copy of the signature of Pope John-Paul II “Given October 11, 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate.” (emphasis added)

THIS HAS BEEN THE CATHOLIC POSITION ALL ALONG:

1. “The holy universal Church proclaims that God cannot truly be worshipped save within herself, and asserts that all they who are without her pale shall never be saved.”
   Pope Gregory the Great 540-604 A.D.
2. “The Church is like the Ark of Noah, outside of which nobody can be saved.”
   St. Thomas Aquinas 1224-1274 A.D.
3. “That there is one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church we are compelled to believe and to hold, prompted by divine faith, and we do believe this firmly and confess it simply, outside of which there can be no salvation, or remission of sins….”
   Pope Boniface VIII 1235-1303 A.D., became Pope in 1294
4. “It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.”
   Pope Pius IX 1792-1878 A.D., became Pope in 1846, convened the first Vatican Council in 1869, which enunciated the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility.
5. “We believe the Church is necessary for salvation because Christ, who is the sole mediator and exclusive way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church. We must always remember the unity of the mystical body, without which there can be no salvation, is open to no one outside the Catholic Church.”
   Pope Paul VI 1897-1978 A.D. became Pope in 1963
6. “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.”
   Vatican II 1965

Congratulations! All religions that consider themselves “Christian” consider you a heretic. Catholicism considers you a heretic because you don’t accept this major Catholic doctrine, and the other religions consider you a heretic because you accept Catholicism.

catholicism.org/pope-st-pius-x-on-ignorance-and-salvation.html

Thats a great article on ignorance and salvation. Which some here seem to confuse.

And heres another link from Catholic Answers.

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholic.com%2Fthisrock%2F2010%2F1005btb.asp&ei=zdnCTZ_8NpCugQfF9t3dAQ&usg=AFQjCNGigRJ6QGUti-L_pmcIXYy19BUAwg

There is no confusion, there’s a fundemental lack of understanding on your part which hopefuly this will help you you understand. But I seriuously doubt it since your sole intention is to preach a contrary message to CCC, Doctrine and Dogma. Your not a mystery to me, I get you.

There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church!

God Bless, Gary*

 

[TedDC]

You would not know?

Just read the Bible. That is what the Church claims God has revealed. It was this Church which discerned the codex of early Christian writings into the Bible.

I do not believe that the Bible is an inerrant record of God’s communication with man.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not believe that the Bible is an inerrant record of God’s communication with man.

Fair enough.

Then how is it that you know anything about God?

Is God a god of love? Is there one god or many? Is Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity?

 

[GaryTaylor]

CATHOLIC APOLOGETICS

We shall lists some of the Popes and Saints of the Church and what they taught on this Catholic Dogma:

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicapologetics.info%2Fmodernproblems%2Fecumenism%2Fnonsalus.htm&ei=LeDCTZulBIeTtwfR0YTABQ&usg=AFQjCNFPTr0cj9VDS-7sRyw-1pMZ82tpjA

As I have stated this is not new but has been taught from the start right through till JP-II updated the Catechism. And its not just CCC only, its, Dogma and Doctrine.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Serap]

Your mistaken and here are the links.

This sole Church of Christ was entrusted to Peter and the other apostles. “This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him” (Second Vatican Council). Only in the Catholic Church can the fullness of the means of salvation be obtained.

Catholic doctrine teaches that membership in the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.

Catholic Catechism, par. 870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter * and by the bishops in communion with him.

Catholic Catechism, par. 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [LG 14; cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5.]

This isn’t some five-hundred year-old “outdated” teaching. My copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church contains a copy of the signature of Pope John-Paul II “Given October 11, 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate.” (emphasis added)

THIS HAS BEEN THE CATHOLIC POSITION ALL ALONG:

1. “The holy universal Church proclaims that God cannot truly be worshipped save within herself, and asserts that all they who are without her pale shall never be saved.”
   Pope Gregory the Great 540-604 A.D.
2. “The Church is like the Ark of Noah, outside of which nobody can be saved.”
   St. Thomas Aquinas 1224-1274 A.D.
3. “That there is one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church we are compelled to believe and to hold, prompted by divine faith, and we do believe this firmly and confess it simply, outside of which there can be no salvation, or remission of sins….”
   Pope Boniface VIII 1235-1303 A.D., became Pope in 1294
4. “It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.”
   Pope Pius IX 1792-1878 A.D., became Pope in 1846, convened the first Vatican Council in 1869, which enunciated the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility.
5. “We believe the Church is necessary for salvation because Christ, who is the sole mediator and exclusive way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church. We must always remember the unity of the mystical body, without which there can be no salvation, is open to no one outside the Catholic Church.”
   Pope Paul VI 1897-1978 A.D. became Pope in 1963
6. “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.”
   Vatican II 1965

Congratulations! All religions that consider themselves “Christian” consider you a heretic. Catholicism considers you a heretic because you don’t accept this major Catholic doctrine, and the other religions consider you a heretic because you accept Catholicism.

catholicism.org/pope-st-pius-x-on-ignorance-and-salvation.html*

Thats a great article on ignorance and salvation. Which some here seem to confuse.

And heres another link from Catholic Answers.

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholic.com%2Fthisrock%2F2010%2F1005btb.asp&ei=zdnCTZ_8NpCugQfF9t3dAQ&usg=AFQjCNGigRJ6QGUti-L_pmcIXYy19BUAwg

There is no confusion, there’s a fundemental lack of understanding on your part which hopefuly this will help you you understand. But I seriuously doubt it since your sole intention is to preach a contrary message to CCC, Doctrine and Dogma. Your not a mystery to me, I get you.

There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church!

God Bless, Gary

you think you know me…good to know.

God knows me better.

 

[CMatt25]

Fair enough.

Then how is it that you know anything about God?

Is God a god of love? Is there one god or many? Is Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity?

PR, I can’t speak for Ted. But he said, “I do not believe that the Bible is an inerrant record of God’s communication with man.” Unless someone says they believe every word is in err, I’m not going to assume they can not or do not know anything about God from the Bible.

I know you are on this theme of the Catholic Church compiling the NT. But I know Protestants who would say that could have been God’s purpose for the Catholic Church at the time.

Peace to you.

 

[Serap]

I’m glad the priests that I come across are not as callous as people posting on this thread

 

[CMatt25]

How do you know that you have the Truth?

Hey Ted, I’ve asked that a time or 2 too. I know your question was not posed to me. But I’d say when someone says they know the truth, it’s because they believe and have faith that they do.

 

[jmcrae]

Bah…some of the meanest and rudest people I have ever met have been church goers and they justify their behaviour in the name of religion.

Just imagine how much worse they would be, if they didn’t have the Church.

And, being in the Church, they have opportunities daily to convert - opportunities that non-Church-goers haven’t got.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I can’t speak for Ted. But he said, “I do not believe that the Bible is an inerrant record of God’s communication with man.” Unless someone says they believe every word is in err, I’m not going to assume they can not or do not know anything about God from the Bible.

Nor do I.

I just wonder how folks decide where the Bible is proclaiming the inerrant word of God and where it isn’t.

That is, is Malachi 1:11 theopneustos? What about John 3:16?

And, here’s the real kicker: how do you know?

 

[PRmerger]

I know you are on this theme of the Catholic Church compiling the NT. But I know Protestants who would say that could have been God’s purpose for the Catholic Church at the time.

Peace to you.

That’s fine, except it’s a tradition that they’ve simply pulled out of thin air. There’s no Scripture verse that says God used an entity to produce a book, made sure they did not err in compiling it, certified that at multiple councils centuries later this codex would be preserved, then never ever did this again for any other teaching.

Sounds weird, eh, when it’s put that way?

 

[CMatt25]

Nor do I.

I just wonder how folks decide where the Bible is proclaiming the inerrant word of God and where it isn’t.

That is, is Malachi 1:11 theopneustos? What about John 3:16?

And, here’s the real kicker: how do you know?

I suppose some at least read and pray over it and do their best to understand God’s Spirit. You mentioned the sound of weirdness. None of this sounds as weird to me though as it might to you I suppose. Yes the verses you offer say our Lord’s name is great and to believe in Him for eternal life. To the degree we “know” PR, by our understanding in faith and belief. Related to the topic of the thread, along our spiritual journeys. God bless you and peace.

 

[PRmerger]

I suppose some at least read and pray over it and do their best to understand God’s Spirit. You mentioned the sound of weirdness. None of this sounds as weird to me though as it might to you I suppose. Yes the verses you offer say our Lord’s name is great and to believe in Him for eternal life. To the degree we “know” PR, by our understanding in faith and belief. Related to the topic of the thread, along our spiritual journeys. God bless you and peace.

So, again, to go back to my Facebook analogy, it seems that some people seem to read God’s posts and will click “like!” on that which is pleasing to them. However, after reading something which is difficult (after praying, ok,) will determine that some things are “dislikeable” and thus, like the serpent in the garden millenia ago who whispered, “Did God really say…”, decide God really didn’t say that.

Really, Matt, what’s so difficult for a believer about saying “our Lord’s name is great”. What’s to dislike about that?

Now, take the other things like, “whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery”, well, I rather wish that were not the case. So, I’m going to listen to the serpent and say, “Did God really say…”

No, I am sorry, Matt, but I cannot abide by a faith in which I get to determine what God said. Because, if I get to decide, I’m going to pick all the fun and happy things.

And I submit to you that this is what Cafeteria Catholics do, what “spiritual but not religious” folks do, and what Protestantism has wrought.

Over a multitude of threads I’ve asked people of this ilk what moral belief they have that they submit to, despite their willing it not to be so, and not a single person has been able to respond.

Speaks volumes.

Church shopping and Cafeteria Catholicism: creating a god in one’s own image, rather than conforming our image to God’s.

 

[TedDC]

Fair enough.

Then how is it that you know anything about God?

Is God a god of love? Is there one god or many? Is Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity?

I don’t know anything about God. I do believe He is a God of love, because the good in the people He created seems to outweigh the bad.

Beyond that, the theological questions are probably unanswerable. And they’re really not important to me. The answers are what they are - we’ll all find out someday.