Can people choose to be spriritual and live a loving life?

[PRmerger]

But Serap, you are justifying your beliefs on this thread, in particular your belief (and mine as well) that other Christians are deserving of respect and consideration for their beliefs even though they are different than the beliefs of Catholics You are also of the belief that non-Catholic Christians are quite as capable of living good faith-enriched Christian lives with good Christian values as Catholics.

I know most Catholics who disagree with your viewpoints on the CAFs also profess quite vociferously that non-Catholic Christians are quite capable of " living good faith-enriched Christian lives with good Christian values." In fact, I go one step further and state that atheists and non-Christians can live moral lives.

What we are maintaining is that there are some truths that are not compatible with Christ’s teachings.

And to the degree that you live and profess these truths divorced from this teaching is the degree that you have separated yourself from Christ and His Body, the Church.

Otherwise, what you are in danger of doing is creating a god in your own image, rather than conforming your image to God’s.

I submit to you that if you have not a single teaching that you believe simply because God has revealed it, then you are creating a god in your own image.

I hope that you will examine your beliefs and assent to a teaching that, on your own, you might not conclude is true.

 

[Rence]

I know most Catholics who disagree with your viewpoints on the CAFs also profess quite vociferously that non-Catholic Christians are quite capable of " living good faith-enriched Christian lives with good Christian values." In fact, I go one step further and state that atheists and non-Christians can live moral lives.

What we are maintaining is that there are some truths that are not compatible with Christ’s teachings.

Of course there are truths that are not compatible with Christ’s teachings, I’ve said that many times. But I am specifically talking about truths that are compatible with Christ’s teachings. One can say that the Church has the fullness of Truth. But non-Catholics have the Truth as well, even though they don’t have all of it. They have enough of it to form a foundation based on their love for God.

And to the degree that you live and profess these truths divorced from this teaching is the degree that you have separated yourself from Christ and His Body, the Church.

Otherwise, what you are in danger of doing is creating a god in your own image, rather than conforming your image to God’s.

Those who worship God outside of the Catholic Church have not created a god in their own image. They worship the same God that we do.

I submit to you that if you have not a single teaching that you believe simply because God has revealed it, then you are creating a god in your own image.

God, being omnipotent, can do anything, including inspire a non-Catholic, or even a non-Christian to learn something good and virtuous. God, being omnipotent, can inspire a non-Catholic, or a non-Christian, to lead a life that will lead to that person’s salvation.

 

[Serap]

But Serap, you are justifying your beliefs on this thread, in particular your belief (and mine as well) that other Christians are deserving of respect and consideration for their beliefs even though they are different than the beliefs of Catholics You are also of the belief that non-Catholic Christians are quite as capable of living good faith-enriched Christian lives with good Christian values as Catholics.

Thanks. I’m not too popular around here :blackeye:

 

[PRmerger]

Of course there are truths that are not compatible with Christ’s teachings, I’ve said that many times. But I am specifically talking about truths that are compatible with Christ’s teachings. One can say that the Church has the fullness of Truth. But non-Catholics have the Truth as well, even though they don’t have all of it. They have enough of it to form a foundation based on their love for God.

Well, then, Rence, we are agreed and you are consonant with Catholic teaching here.

Those who worship God outside of the Catholic Church have not created a god in their own image. They worship the same God that we do.

Well, yes and no. If they say, “God wouldn’t tell us to ____ but the Church says, yes, God does tell us to ______” then they are indeed creating their own god in their own image, based on their own belief system, not God’s.

But if they worship God as He has revealed and conform their will to Christ’s (and there is only one way to know what Christ’s will is–through the Church), then they are indeed worshiping God and not creating their own god.

God, being omnipotent, can do anything, including inspire a non-Catholic, or even a non-Christian to learn something good and virtuous. God, being omnipotent, can inspire a non-Catholic, or a non-Christian, to lead a life that will lead to that person’s salvation.

You are again very Catholic when you say this!

(With this correction: " to lead a life that -]will/-] may lead to that person’s salvation."

 

[Rence]

Well, yes and no. If they say, “God wouldn’t tell us to ____ but the Church says, yes, God does tell us to ______” then they are indeed creating their own god in their own image, based on their own belief system, not God’s.

But if they worship God as He has revealed and conform their will to Christ’s (and there is only one way to know what Christ’s will is–through the Church), then they are indeed worshiping God and not creating their own god.

I disagree that they are creating their own god in their own image, based on their own belief systems. They are worshipping the same God we are, and they are using the material available to them to guide them, such as the Bible and the teachings of their own religion.

When you say that people create their own god in their own image, I picture someone who disagrees with the Church for selfish reasons, which motivates them to find a religion that brings them closer to God without compromising their bad habits. That, to me, is a totally different senario than someone who doesn’t acknowledge the teaching authority of the Church because they have been/and are following another religon.

Or even someone who doesn’t acknowledge the teaaching authority of the Church due to their lack of understanding in what the Church teaches, or even true disagreements with some teachings. We as Catholics, know that disagreeing with some teachings is flawed, but it is very real to those who have stumbling blocks with certain teachings. I can understand that. And I don’t believe they’re trying to create a god. They are trying to find a place in the world that doesn’t torment their conscience.

You are again very Catholic when you say this!

(With this correction: " to lead a life that -]will/-] may lead to that person’s salvation."

That can be said in reverse too. Being baptised Catholic, or being Catholic, *may" lead to that person’s salvation, but that’s not a guarantee either.

 

[PRmerger]

That can be said in reverse too. Being baptised Catholic, or being Catholic, *may" lead to that person’s salvation, but that’s not a guarantee either.

This is the most peculiar comment on this thread.

It appears that you were under the misapprehension that Catholicism preaches that being baptized Catholic is a guarantee of our salvation?

I assure you that it does not.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree that they are creating their own god in their own image, based on their own belief systems. They are worshipping the same God we are, and they are using the material available to them to guide them, such as the Bible and the teachings of their own religion.

Yes, we are agreed.

But I challenge these non-Catholic Christians, and I challenge you, to examine your conclusions as to what this God has revealed.

If there is NOTHING in your moral/theological paradigm that you only assent to only because you know God has revealed it, then you are indeed creating a god in your own image. Logic dictates this.

For example, if you would prefer that God not say that divorce and remarriage is wrong, and have decided, “Well, God really wouldn’t say that”, then you have created a god in your own image.

If you say, “My own opinion is that someone should be able to get out of a bad marriage and marry her one true love, but I know that God has said otherwise, so I humbly surrender to God’s will”, then you are conforming your will to God’s.

 

[Rence]

Yes, we are agreed.

But I challenge these non-Catholic Christians, and I challenge you, to examine your conclusions as to what this God has revealed.

If there is NOTHING in your moral/theological paradigm that you only assent to only because you know God has revealed it, then you are indeed creating a god in your own image. Logic dictates this.

For example, if you would prefer that God not say that divorce and remarriage is wrong, and have decided, “Well, God really wouldn’t say that”, then you have created a god in your own image.

If you say, “My own opinion is that someone should be able to get out of a bad marriage and marry her one true love, but I know that God has said otherwise, so I humbly surrender to God’s will”, then you are conforming your will to God’s.

That’s your opinion and in many ways I share it. But I disagree that someone is “creating their own god” when they disagree with a teaching of the Church that is a stumbling block for them. While I agree with most of what the Church teaches of marriage and the annullment process, I can completely understand someone who has been “shafted” by the system leaving the Church in search of a more compassionate and “human” atmosphere that would allow divorce and remarriage in a limited capacity. There’s a world of difference between someone who views marriage as disposable, and a person who views marriage as a sacrament but who has wound up in a destructive relationship called “marriage” and wants out and wants free of that and wants the ability to move forward. There is a difference between someone nonchalantly saying, “well God wouldn’t want that” as a solution to their problem, and someone who truly believes that “God wouldn’t want that”.

 

[Serap]

That’s your opinion and in many ways I share it. But I disagree that someone is “creating their own god” when they disagree with a teaching of the Church that is a stumbling block for them. While I agree with most of what the Church teaches of marriage and the annullment process, I can completely understand someone who has been “shafted” by the system leaving the Church in search of a more compassionate and “human” atmosphere that would allow divorce and remarriage in a limited capacity. There’s a world of difference between someone who views marriage as disposable, and a person who views marriage as a sacrament but who has wound up in a destructive relationship called “marriage” and wants out and wants free of that and wants the ability to move forward. There is a difference between someone nonchalantly saying, “well God wouldn’t want that” as a solution to their problem, and someone who truly believes that “God wouldn’t want that”.

You’re making some rather great points here. We need to be empathetic to people in these positions. Life can be very difficult for some and compassion can greatly benefit them and bring them closer to Christ, even if it is an imperfect way of doing it.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s your opinion and in many ways I share it. But I disagree that someone is “creating their own god” when they disagree with a teaching of the Church that is a stumbling block for them

Nothing here I disagree with.

While I agree with most of what the Church teaches of marriage and the annullment process, I can completely understand someone who has been “shafted” by the system leaving the Church in search of a more compassionate and “human” atmosphere that would allow divorce and remarriage in a limited capacity.

Now, this is a great example of creating a god in one’s own image. You don’t like what your Church teaches, so you “church shop” and find one that conforms to your own image of what you want.

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? We conform our image to God’s?

There’s a world of difference between someone who views marriage as disposable, and a person who views marriage as a sacrament but who has wound up in a destructive relationship called “marriage” and wants out and wants free of that and wants the ability to move forward.

Tis true, this.

Especially if it truly is a “marriage” as opposed to a marriage.

A marriage cannot be dissolved, except by death. That’s what God said, and I, no matter how I wish it were not so, cannot change what God has decreed.

There is a difference between someone nonchalantly saying, “well God wouldn’t want that” as a solution to their problem, and someone who truly believes that “God wouldn’t want that”.

Ok.

Is there any teaching you know God revealed to which you have assented that you had to conform *your *will to?

You need not share, if you don’t wish to. But I submit to you that if you cannot answer in the affirmative, then you have created a god in your own image.

 

[Rence]

Nothing here I disagree with.

Now, this is a great example of creating a god in one’s own image. You don’t like what your Church teaches, so you “church shop” and find one that conforms to your own image of what you want.

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? We conform our image to God’s?

Well, not to someone who doesn’t share your opinion, no.

A marriage cannot be dissolved, except by death. That’s what God said, and I, no matter how I wish it were not so, cannot change what God has decreed.

True, a Sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved. However, it can be found to be illicit and therefore,not a marriage at all, which result in annullments being granted.

Is there any teaching you know God revealed to which you have assented that you had to conform *your *will to?

There is no teaching that I know God revealed that I have assented that I had to conform my will to – or not. However, there are a few things that the Church teaches that I have a difficult time understanding or believing. Thankfully, nothing that affects my day-to-day living, so I don’t have to do anything about it. Lucky me. The average everyday Catholic either converts to another religion, or remains Catholic and lives according to their concience. I am not sure what I would do if forced by circumstances to make a choice though.

You need not share, if you don’t wish to. But I submit to you that if you cannot answer in the affirmative, then you have created a god in your own image.

Well of course you would

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

They believe that all religions pray to the same God, and it’s a shame that so many wars are based on religion.

This is a little misleading and implies that religion is a major cause of war. According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, 3 volume set that examines over 1800 wars found that less thant 7% were due, in whole or in part, to religious reasons. Over half of the religious wars were initiated by adherents of Islam. The remainder, of course, were for secular, non-religious ideologies and social-economic reasons.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, not to someone who doesn’t share your opinion, no.

Huh? You’re saying there are some who propose that God should conform His will to ours?

True, a Sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved. However, it can be found to be illicit and therefore,not a marriage at all, which result in annullments being granted.

Exactly.

If it’s a marriage, it cannot be dissolved, except by death.

There is no teaching that I know God revealed that I have assented that I had to conform my will to – or not. However, there are a few things that the Church teaches that I have a difficult time understanding or believing. Thankfully, nothing that affects my day-to-day living, so I don’t have to do anything about it. Lucky me. The average everyday Catholic either converts to another religion, or remains Catholic and lives according to their concience. I am not sure what I would do if forced by circumstances to make a choice though.

Then, I submit to you that you are indeed one of those folks who has created a god that in your own image–one that is palatable and not difficult to accept… You have taken the “delicious”, fatty/sweet parts–God is love–and rejected the “good for you” vegetable parts (perhaps the part that says you have to go to Mass every Sunday?).

And the fruit of being this type of Cafeteria Catholic who feasts only on sweets is…spiritual unhealthiness.

 

[Rence]

Huh? You’re saying there are some who propose that God should conform His will to ours?

No, I didn’t say that at all.

Then, I submit to you that you are indeed one of those folks who has created a god that in your own image–one that is palatable and not difficult to accept… You have taken the “delicious”, fatty/sweet parts–God is love–and rejected the “good for you” vegetable parts (perhaps the part that says you have to go to Mass every Sunday?).

And the fruit of being this type of Cafeteria Catholic who feasts only on sweets is…spiritual unhealthiness.

Well of course you would say that, that’s what you’ve been saying throughout this whole thread. If it doesn’t mesh with what you believe to be the absolute truth, then you submit that someone has created their own god.

But I say that people who are seeking God and seeing the truth, are doing so the best way they can in their unique situation, learning and growing along the way. Trying to impose another person’s moral laws and codes is not going to work. They have to find their own way on their spiritual journey and make their own choices in life. Dismissing their beliefs and values as “they made their own god” is not going to help them. But everyone represents the Church differently.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I didn’t say that at all.

My apologies. What did you mean, then when you said this:

Well, not to someone who doesn’t share your opinion, no.

In response to my quote below:

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? We conform our image to God’s?

 

[PRmerger]

Well of course you would say that, that’s what you’ve been saying throughout this whole thread. If it doesn’t mesh with what you believe to be the absolute truth, then you submit that someone has created their own god.

Actually, not quite. What I’ve been saying (perhaps ineptly) is that if you have all of God’s teachings nicely aligned with your own POV, then you have, logically, created a god in your own image.

I have not brought in any discussion whatsoever about whether it “meshes” with what I believe.

But I say that people who are seeking God and seeing the truth, are doing so the best way they can in their unique situation, learning and growing along the way.

Very Catholic of you to say this!

Trying to impose another person’s moral laws and codes is not going to work

Yes–no one here is suggesting we impose another person’s moral laws and codes upon you.

They have to find their own way on their spiritual journey and make their own choices in life. Dismissing their beliefs and values as “they made their own god” is not going to help them.

Who are you talking about here? Yourself? The lurkers?

But everyone represents the Church differently.

Not sure what this means, but, ok.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, not quite. What I’ve been saying (perhaps ineptly) is that if you have all of God’s teachings nicely aligned with your own POV, then you have, logically, created a god in your own image.

Here’s another way to present my argument:

Reason tells us that God is going to tell us things we may not want to hear. Our ways are not his ways, eh.?

Now, if everything we believe He has spoken is something we’d click “like” on Facebook, (if God were to have a Facebook page ), then reasons tells us that we’ve created a god in our own image.

So God says:

• “I am love” ** Like!**
• "I love everyone "Like!
• "You must feed the poor. "Like!
• “You must get up every Sunday and worship me.” Dislike! Hmmm…I really don’t think God said this. I believe God actually says that He can be worshipped by looking at the beautiful sunset. * Now *I can click Like!
• “You cannot divorce your husband and marry your childhood sweetheart.” Dislike! I guess God didn’t really say that (the echo of the Serpent in the garden millenia ago–“Did God really say…?” So I’m just going to change God’s post and say that God dislikes divorce but indulges us. ** Like!**

 

[Rence]

My apologies. What did you mean, then when you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence
Well, not to someone who doesn’t share your opinion, no.

It means that if a person has issue with a certain teaching of the Church, and they can’t bring themselves in good conscience to force themselves to believe it hook, line and sinker, they don’t believe that it’s God they have issue with, but the teaching body who made a mistake/misinterpretation. Just because a Catholic believes something to be true, doesn’t mean that a non-Catholic, who doesn’t believe the same is creating a god in his or her own image. It simply means that the person who can’t believe in this particular teaching in question can’t believe it. While it might be easy for someone, like you, to say, “oh, the Church teaches, therefore I believe it, and therefore so should everyone else” doesn’t make it truthful for someone else. You’re just lucky that you conform to your own rules.

Say for example, many people disagreed with the inclusion of the filioque in the creed. Those people did not doubt God at all, but felt the Catholic Church was mistaken when they included it in the creed. So this, among a few serious reasons, caused them to want to break off from the Church. They could not bear the thought of accepting this teaching. I would hardly say that those who had trouble accepting the filioque were creating a god in his or her image. But if you think such a person is creating a god to fit their image, you certainly have the right to your opinion just like anyone else to think so. I just disagree with it.

Another example that hits closer to home for me is IVF. At one point I considered IVF and did a bit of research on it. But when I came to CAF, it was explained to me that IVF is forbidden by the Church and why. Well, I completely disagree with that teaching. But this teaching doesn’t affect me. IVF is not something I would go run out to do, it was something I was considering and researching. So it would be really easy for me to pat myself on the back and say, 'well the Church forbids it and they know best, so I put the idea aside". But the truth is, while I disagree with the teaching and believe it to be flawed, I have no compulsion to disobey the teaching by running out and using IVF. However, I would completely understand a couple who has been trying to conceive unsuccessfully disagreeing with the teaching and doing it anyway. I mean, I don’t find the teaching reasonable at all, and I am not even someone who is desperately trying to conceive. It doesn’t make sense to me that a couple, not only devestated by their failed attempts, but devestated again to learn something they don’t believe is true, dictated by their religion, would either 1) remain Catholic and just do the IVF, or 2) leave for a more compassionate religion whose teachings are more in line with their own. You can call it “creating a god in their image” and “playing god”, but that doesn’t make it true. If someone can’t agree with the teachings of the Church because they feel the teaching is flawed, then they can’t agree with it. I don’t agree with it myself, but I can still be in alignment with the Church simply because this Church rule doesn’t affect me. I feel badly for those who are affected by this rule.

 

[Rence]

worshipped by looking at the beautiful sunset. * Now I can click Like!
]“You cannot divorce your husband and marry your childhood sweetheart.” Dislike! I guess God didn’t really say that (the echo of the Serpent in the garden millenia ago–“Did God really say…?” So I’m just going to change God’s post and say that God dislikes divorce but indulges us. ** Like!

How about “I married someone, had seven kids with them, ran into trouble getting along, so we went to a Catholic priest for counsel, and guess what? My wife is now having an affair with this Catholic priest. Like? Nope. I don’t. Click: Dislike! Look, that priest left the priesthood, is shacking up with my wife, and raising my children while I am at work still paying off the house. Wow, I really dislike that. Click.”

Yeah, that’s a true story btw. Not something I made up hypothetically. Why should that person be alone when they have done all they could to do right? There would be no other alternative for that person other than to be alone - according to the Church. Because being cheated on is not enough reason to get an annullment. And having your spouse run off with the parish priest isn’t enough to get an annullment either. And having your ex-spouse shack up with that priest isn’t enough either. So yeah, I can totally understand how such a person would see the Church as flawed in its teaching. It doesn’t make sense, that’s why.

But apparently all is good in the world now because that person actually got an annulment. But not until he dated someone else for about 10 years. After he got that annulment he married his second wife.

But I don’t think God did want him to be unhappy. And I don’t think he created a god in his image. He just wanted to not be alone. He wanted a real wife, and he wanted a family. And wanted a Church compassionate enough not to punish him for someone else’s evil. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

But you know, you have the right to claim that such a person created a god in his image. Just as another person has the right to claim that thinking process is flawed.

 

[Rence]

Actually, not quite. What I’ve been saying (perhaps ineptly) is that if you have all of God’s teachings nicely aligned with your own POV, then you have, logically, created a god in your own image. I have not brought in any discussion whatsoever about whether it “meshes” with what I believe.

You don’t have bring in any discussion about whether it meshes with what you believe, because it already does.

Who are you talking about here? Yourself? The lurkers?

Everyone. Everyone is on a journey towards God, they’re just not all on the same path, not all at the same distance down the path, and not all at the same time. Some people are going to find it easier to swallow certain teachings than others. And everyone is going to be different about what they do about these differences.