Can people choose to be spriritual and live a loving life?

[PRmerger]

Know? It is faith and belief along a journey.

True. Tis true.

And what in your faith tells you when the Church is wrong? Based on what criterion?

And I don’t require the other party, PR, to change it’s POV.

This is good, too. You don’t ask the Church to change her teachings. Fine.

How, then, do you reconcile your POV with the Church’s, when they are in contradiction?

 

[CMatt25]

Think about the principles that you are using here, Matt.

You have compassion for this woman in an abused marriage and want her to find happiness. In your paradigm she should be allowed to have her happiness.

The same could be said for the woman who loves her high school sweetheart but is married to someone else.

Why, then, in your paradigm should she (woman #2) not be allowed to have her happiness as well? Is it because she is *already *married?

R, (now that I know you’re R) I’m not in the shoes of woman #2 or in her marriage to gauge her happiness. Woman #1 in my scenario is beaten violently on an ongoing basis, is miserable, leaves, but is told she can not remarry. I squirm with that. There are other Christian churches which allow for remarriage in such a case. To my thinking I don’t dismiss the possiblilty they perhaps have achived further understanding about it. That’s all.

 

[CMatt25]

True. Tis true.

And what in your faith tells you when the Church is wrong? Based on what criterion?

This is good, too. You don’t ask the Church to change her teachings. Fine.

How, then, do you reconcile your POV with the Church’s, when they are in contradiction?

Based on faith and belief, thru prayer to the best of my understanding. Striving to do Philippians 2:12 and reconciling in faith that only God knows the heart and trusting in His infinite mercy and love.

I know you have difficulty with what I say but I can understand where you are coming from R. I can agree to disagree. For some reason with my finite mind I just don’t need to think I know or have all the answers. I’m not infallible. I’m human. Like any of us I can only walk by faith and not by sight. And who knows R. If each of us are blessed to meet each other in heaven someday, looking down and perhaps sharing some laughs over some of the things we argued about here on earth, perhaps even Fred Phelps will have had a change in heart and may be joining us.

As the Apostle James said, let us pray for one another, R. God bless you my friend and peace.

 

[jmcrae]

Say for example, many people disagreed with the inclusion of the filioque in the creed. Those people did not doubt God at all, but felt the Catholic Church was mistaken when they included it in the creed.

Actually, our understanding of the basic nature of God is strongly influenced by the filioque - with it, the three Persons of the Trinity are equal. Without it, the Person of the Father is greater than the Persons of the Son and the Holy Spirit. It makes an important difference in our everyday relationship with God, how we understand His three Persons, and how they are related to each other.

 

[jmcrae]

Another example that hits closer to home for me is IVF. At one point I considered IVF and did a bit of research on it. But when I came to CAF, it was explained to me that IVF is forbidden by the Church and why.

That when embryos (human persons) are harvested, several of them are killed along the way.

Well, I completely disagree with that teaching.

You disagree that the embryos (human persons) are killed, or that it’s a bad thing to kill that embryos (human persons), just as long as one of them survives and an infertile woman can give birth to him or her?

 

[Tyuiop411]

I tend to agree with this. Many here state that someone is in mortal sin if they are given the truth (grew up a Catholic) and then choose not to be a Catholic anymore. They are in mortal sin for various reasons like being openly gay, cohabitating, etc., despite how kind hearted and giving they are as a person.

I just don’t buy it.

I’m coming kind of late to comment on this but I thought i’d weigh in anyway.

I somewhat agree with you here. There can be a number of mitigating factors that determine whether or not someone is completely culpable for their sins. But I draw the line at rejecting Christ; we can’t work our way into heaven, and if you reject Christ you reject salvation.

It’s kind of like God coming by in a boat to pick us out of the ocean and take us to shore, and instead of us accepting we say “No thanks If I swim enough I’ll get there eventually.” But when you get there you find out that there is an unclimbable cliff with with a dock that you can only reach by being in the boat God offered to bring you to shore with. Or in simpler terms the person trusted in himself to get to heaven rather than trusting in God, and when he got to the end of his life he found out he had (literally in this story) missed the boat.

Basically I just don’t think God owes people heaven simply because they did good deeds in this life. God did his part, and we must do ours; we can’t just replace God’s work for our salvation with more work on our part and expect to have done enough.

 

[jmcrae]

Basically I just don’t think God owes people heaven simply because they did good deeds in this life. God did his part, and we must do ours; we can’t just replace God’s work for our salvation with more work on our part and expect to have done enough.

 

[PRmerger]

R, (now that I know you’re R) I’m not in the shoes of woman #2 or in her marriage to gauge her happiness. Woman #1 in my scenario is beaten violently on an ongoing basis, is miserable, leaves, but is told she can not remarry. I squirm with that. There are other Christian churches which allow for remarriage in such a case.

Yes, they do. :sad_yes:

The Catholic Church has the humility to admit that they cannot edit the message. They are just the letter carrier. Sadly, other churches have taken it upon themselves to edit the message when it is unpalatable.

It would seem that they should also alter the message for woman #2 and say that she deserves happiness, too, and ought to be able to be with her sweetheart, even if she is already married.

 

[PRmerger]

Based on faith and belief, thru prayer to the best of my understanding.

This is begging the question, Matt. “I have faith in what I believe in because I have faith.” Circular.

You have to have a criterion for what you believe to be God’s will vs what is not God’s will. And since you disagree with some things that God has proclaimed, yet accept others, the only logical conclusion is that you use your own self as the canon of what is true and what is false.

Striving to do Philippians 2:12 and reconciling in faith that only God knows the heart and trusting in His infinite mercy and love.

Is Philippians 2:12 an example of where the Church got it right in proclaiming, “This is what God has revealed”? If so, how do you know?

I know you have difficulty with what I say but I can understand where you are coming from R.

As do I. I totally know where you are coming from.

For some reason with my finite mind I just don’t need to think I know or have all the answers. I’m not infallible. I’m human.

Amen!

Like any of us I can only walk by faith and not by sight

[SIGN1]This is absolutely not true.[/SIGN1] God has declared that we are to love him with our entire heart, soul, strength and MIND. The MIND part is why I post here on the CAFs. We certainly have the ability to grasp knowledge of God with our MIND, and to deny this is to refuse to obey God’s command.

perhaps even Fred Phelps will have had a change in heart and may be joining us.

Interesting that you note that Phelps must change his heart in order to join us in heaven. Why is that, if he believes, through prayer and faith, that he has been walking in faith with the Lord. Isn’t that the criterion you use for determining whether you’re right with God?

As the Apostle James said, let us pray for one another, R. God bless you my friend and peace.

Right back at cha, Matt!

Except, just wondering if you think the Church got it right with including James’ epistle?

 

[CMatt25]

This is begging the question, Matt. “I have faith in what I believe in because I have faith.” Circular.

And since you disagree with some things that God has proclaimed, yet accept others, the only logical conclusion is that you use your own self as the canon of what is true and what is false.

Is Philippians 2:12 an example of where the Church got it right in proclaiming, “This is what God has revealed”? If so, how do you know?

This is absolutely not true. God has declared that we are to love him with our entire heart, soul, strength and MIND. The MIND part is why I post here on the CAFs. We certainly have the ability to grasp knowledge of God with our MIND, and to deny this is to refuse to obey God’s command.

Interesting that you note that Phelps must change his heart in order to join us in heaven. Why is that, if he believes, through prayer and faith, that he has been walking in faith with the Lord. Isn’t that the criterion you use for determining whether you’re right with God?

Except, just wondering if you think the Church got it right with including James’ epistle?

I find after awhile discussions about matters of faith and belief tend to go circular. Serap earlier offered a suggestion that you and Rence agree to disagree. I do the same with us.

I am disappointed you would go there PRMerger and make what I could consider an uncharitable remark about my beliefs by saying I disagree with God. What you believe He proclaims may not be the same as what I believe. We have our respective beliefs at the point we are at on our journeys.

Yes I believe both Philippians 2:12 and James regarding praying for one another are both good advice to heed. How do I know? That’s just the point PRMerger I believe Ted was trying to make with you. We don’t know in the true literal sense. We can believe we know. But that is something different. That is why we call it faith. There is the Catholic faith. And various other faiths. And some have no faith in God. While yes I know it has been said on the forum, not by you PRMerger, that my faith seems to have no place for God, having no faith in God would not be me.

It’s not absolutely true that we walk by faith and not by sight? I don’t know. I just know I wasn’t around for Creation nor when Christ walked the earth. So it takes leaps of faith.

I use my mind too as I search Scripture and pray over it. Peace and God bless.

 

[guanophore]

Fair enough.

But it does seem you quote her often enough. To wit: here; and here, only just recently. It seems that you accept the Church’s infallibility in her discernment that Matt 7:3, Phil 2:12 etc are God’s revelation, yet, she is incorrect in other areas?

Same question, then, as I posed to Ted. How do you know when she is speaking inerrantly? Did she get it right in keeping Matt 7:3 in the Bible?

Or are you only declaring that God said something only when it agrees with your POV?

See where this leads you when you quote the CC as revealing God’s word…sometimes…but that she may be wrong at other times?

It does seem to convey the message that when God’s revelation agrees with your POV He’s right, but when it is revealed that He declared something that you don’t agree with, well, then, the other party must change its POV.

Well, PR, I think you hit that nail squarely on the head!

 

[guanophore]

R, (now that I know you’re R) I’m not in the shoes of woman #2 or in her marriage to gauge her happiness. Woman #1 in my scenario is beaten violently on an ongoing basis, is miserable, leaves, but is told she can not remarry. I squirm with that. There are other Christian churches which allow for remarriage in such a case. To my thinking I don’t dismiss the possiblilty they perhaps have achived further understanding about it. That’s all.

This was the same kind of hubris that Adam and Eve suffered. They thought they knew more than God about what was good for them.

God created marriage. He does not want us to be divorced. He is our maker. He knows what is best for us.

Any human beings who think they can “achive” more understanding of us and our needs than our creator are sadly mistaken.

 

[guanophore]

I'm not infallible.  I'm human.

CMatt, the gift of infallibility is given only TO humans. We need it because it is in our nature to err. Your statement suggests that no human can be infallible, which is not the case. When humans are moved by the Holy Spirit, they can do infallible acts, such as write inspired Scripture, and do amazing miracles by God’s power. These people were all “human”.

We can benefit from the gift of infallibility to the extent that we are in unity with the Church, to whom it was given.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt, the gift of infallibility is given only TO humans. We need it because it is in our nature to err. Your statement suggests that no human can be infallible, which is not the case.

So a post or 2 back where you said. “Any human beings who think they can “achive” more understanding of us and our needs than our creator are sadly mistaken”, you didn’t really mean “any”?

 

[PRmerger]

I am disappointed you would go there PRMerger and make what I could consider an uncharitable remark about my beliefs by saying I disagree with God.

My apologies! :bighanky:

 

[PRmerger]

What you believe He proclaims may not be the same as what I believe. We have our respective beliefs at the point we are at on our journeys.

And you’re ok with this?

And would this include Fred Phelps’ beliefs, too?

Yes I believe both Philippians 2:12 and James regarding praying for one another are both good advice to heed.

Exactly. Because it fits into your own ideas. Now, if it disagrees with your own sense of morality, theology, then you, in your paradigm, can edit the Message.

It’s not absolutely true that we walk by faith and not by sight?

I amend my statement. It is indeed true that we walk by faith and not by sight, just not “absolutely” true.

Like all of God’s Word it ought not be taken out of context. It does not mean we walk by faith ONLY, as you are proclaiming.

One must see that statement in light of Matt 22:37 and Malachi 1:11 and John 4:1 and…

 

[GaryTaylor]

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Romans 4:18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Titus 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal

But our Faith is preserved in only “one way”. And that is through the Catholic Church and its Sacrements which are a gift from Jesus Christ.

While Baptism is a supernatural infused virtue, it is not enough to preserve the Faith. We have a resonsibility to preserve the Faith. Because Faith is like Oxygen to a human being. You cannot live without it, its impossible. And it can be lost.

So to preserve te Faith we humble ourselves just as Christ did when He washed the Apostles feet, thus showing Us how to humble ouselves and come to Him for forgiveness in the Sacrement of confession.

Without the sacrement you are on your own, hoping in faith, not living in faith. Not gravitating toward a perpertual State of Grace constantly in faith . And thats why it its a Gift from God.

Thats why there is TRUTH and half-truths.

You could live on faith alone and fail. You cannot attend confession and communion and Mass weekly, pray daily and fail. You would have to stop going in order to fail and stop praying. In which case baptism would not be enough. Believeing because you have been baptised you are now saved by faith, is only partially correct. You have a responsibility to preserve that faith. Not just believe in the Father, Son and HS and be Baptised in them.

Why do you think God tells Daniel, Remain on this step? What step? Thats Jacobs ladder and the 9th step of being as close to God as humanly possible. Why? So God can communicate completely through Daniel. Which leads back to moving constantly to a perpetual State of Grace. So God can work though each individual. So His Flock will hear His Voice and Listen to Him.

Anyway thats how I see it.

God Bless, Gary

 

[CMatt25]

My apologies! :bighanky:

:aok: :hug1:

 

[CMatt25]

And you’re ok with this?

And would this include Fred Phelps’ beliefs, too?

Exactly. Because it fits into your own ideas. Now, if it disagrees with your own sense of morality, theology, then you, in your paradigm, can edit the Message.

I amend my statement. It is indeed true that we walk by faith and not by sight, just not “absolutely” true.

Like all of God’s Word it ought not be taken out of context. It does not mean we walk by faith ONLY, as you are proclaiming.

One must see that statement in light of Matt 22:37 and Malachi 1:11 and John 4:1 and…

Yes

Yes although I might not share his whole faith. I really know nothing abut the guy except what you have told me.

No not exactly because you make it sound as if I simply have an “idea” without prayer and study and using my God given mind to think and reason, without any sincere and deep contemplation and more prayer.

Amendment noted. And yes I am a gentile who is striving along my faith journey to love God with my whole heart. soul and mind. Unsure why you think the passage about the Pharisees is relevant here unless you’re somehow linking me to them.

God’s blessings to you PRMerger on your faith walk and peace.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes although I might not share his whole faith. I really know nothing abut the guy except what you have told me.

That’s irrelevant. I don’t know anything about him either, really. It’s not even really about him anyway. I’m talking about a paradigm you’re espousing that if someone is striving to be faithful to God, and prays and studies, and is sincere…whatever he proclaims may be just as valid as anyone else.** If you cannot proclaim that Fred Phelps and his hateful venom is WRONG, then, sadly, your paradigm is of no use in proclaiming the Gospel. **

Yet, if you do maintain that his message is wrong, how do you respond when he tells you, “Well, Matt, I have searched the Scriptures and prayed–just like you. I have a sincere heart–just like you. I love God–just like you. And this is what my prayer and readings and study tell me: God hates homosexuals.” (Except, of course, he’d use a more odious term.)