Hi Ozzie - good to hear from you! As you know, I don’t want to argue, though I am prepared to
, but do enjoy the debate and in no way feel qualified to judge you. Onward…
First thing I want to say is that when you say “the “Catholic” position circumvents the message that was “delivered” to the world by the Apostles” you mean that the position of the first 1500 years of Christianity - correct? If not please provide proof as previously requested. People interpret bible verses differently and rather than simply have you repeatedly deliver bible verses along with your interpretation, could we see
just one person who at least agrees with you that died for Christ?
There are some loose ends in your theology of forgiveness. In addition to your selected quotes, there are many regarding baptism which declare IT as the means of having your sins forgiven.
Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.” Simply one verse of many as you well know. This is even true for the two “believers” who Paul “re-baptized”. I don’t think though, that these verses contradict the forgiveness of sins through faith, however. What I think is necessary to tie them all together is that one must view baptism as an ACT OF FAITH which has its merit in Christs Crucifixion, not a work. I think you may be stumbling on this point. If one views baptism in this light - as an act of faith which provides forgiveness through Christs sacrifice- it unifies the concepts of faith and forgiveness in baptism for the many verses that speak of the undeniable relationship between them. I’m reaching out to you - I hope you appreciate that
.
Ozzie:
What was *once for all *laid on the Savior cannot be laid back on the sinner.
We’ve had too many discussions on this. However, suffice it to say that even in your theology one must FIRST come to faith in Christ for sins to NOT be “laid” upon them. According to you, it is the free gift of forgiveness which one recieves WHEN THEY COME TO FAITH - not before. Otherwise EVERYONE is saved, Christian or not. Last time we discussed this you switched positions and said that what you MEANT to say was that faith in Christ brings the gift of LIFE. Now you’re back to the forgiveness of sins again…I don’t know what to do with you! If you feel the need to discuss, again, the difference between the sufficiency and efficacy of Christs Crucifixion send me a PM.
the “Catholic” position circumvents the message that was “delivered” to the world by the Apostles
Ozzie:
Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where any of the Apostles were instructed to “deliver” forgiveness of sins?
Ozzie:
Once you come to realize that baptism(ie act of faith) is a means for this then many verses come to mind. Matthew 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit, teaching them all I have commanded you." There you have it: message to the apostles to go and effect the forgiveness of sins, and everytime you see it in Acts(see above), Romans, etc. you’re seeing the forgiveness occuring THIS SIDE of the cross, as you like to say.
Continued…
Finally, I would add several other verses which, don’t seem to fit your theology because they apparently
make forgiveness conditional on something other than “faith”. Matthew 6:14 If you forgive others…your Father will forgive you. But if you do not…neither will your Father forgive you." How do we reconcile forgiveness of sins through faith/baptism/forgiveness of others? The answer is simple: in some way they are all the same! “belief” in who Christ is, “belief” in His promise through baptism, and “belief” strong enough to effect a change in your behavior towards others are all aspects of faith in Jesus Christ. That is how they are reconciled. You have limited the concept of faith in Christ to the first element, but the bible, the Church, and tradition all point to more. Think about it.
Phil
Maybe you need to put some shin pads on. 
God Bless
