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jman507
Guest
“Confess, therefore, your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be saved.” James 5:16.
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mercygate
Guest
The second chapter of II Corinthians provides an instance of Paul energetically and authoritatively pronouncing forgiveness of the incestuous man: “if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ.” (KJV) This phrase, “forgave I it in the person of Christ” strongly affirms the Catholic interpretation of John 20:23. Later, in Chapter 5, Paul writes: “God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” (RSV) Lest one dismiss this as merely a warrant for passing along the teaching, Paul then adds: “We are ambassadors for Christ.” An ambassador is one who acts under authority in the name of the king.
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mercygate
Guest
I know nothing of the kind. How could they absolve what is not revealed?
You are referring to my statement that Jesus empowered the apostles to do what he did. Since they healed the sick, raised the dead, and drove out demons, it is not a stretch that in the charism of that Easter night they should be able to forgive sins in Jesus’ name. Forgiveness and reconciliation to eternal life are the chief message of the Gospel. Participation in that mystery would seem to be requisite to the complete teaching.
Allmost the first words Peter speaks to Jesus are “I am a sinful man.” Recognition of one’s sinfulness is the recognition of Who Christ is. Recognizing the particularity of our sinfulness and receiving our Lord’s remedy for it is an act of faith. In our Creed we say: “I believe in the forgiveness of sins.” By this we mean not just the over-arching concept of forgiveness but the personal, concrete, intimate *fact. *Your truculence addresses not the FACT of sin and forgiveness but the means Christ gave us for dealing with it.
Actually, we have shown the biblical support, although the idea that Scripture alone is sufficient is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Writings from the early second century refer to customs “which we received from the apostles” that are not specifically laid out on the surface of Scripture.
Been there. Done that.
Actually, you have done nothing of the kind. You have only cited scripture verses that state the truth which has been preached unceasingly by the Catholic Church for two thousand years: Only God forgives sins, and Christ, the source of our salvation, died for the forgiveness of our sins.
I refuse nothing that my Lord has taught. You refuse to acknowledge that just as Jesus had a physical body when he walked the earth as a man, his Church also has a physical, recognizeable body on earth today, and that body is the Catholic Church. Moreover, you confuse the message of salvation by grace through faith and the washing away of sins in baptism with the problem of post-baptismal sin. Only the Catholic position accounts for all of the contingencies. Only the Catholic position takes into consideration the real-life issues we encounter in our walk with Christ.
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Curious
Guest
Heh…I’ll have to give you that one Ozzie. I guess I can’t accuse you unless you start saying, “I feel like the Lord is telling me that TEN people here can give FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!”
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Ozzie
Guest
Now you’re grasping at straws. This has nothing to do with confessing sins to restore salvation.
In context this is all declarative. Paul states in verse 14, *“For the love of God controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died.” *This is the true believer’s new position in Christ. "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature, the old things passed away; behold new things have come’ (vs. 17). He is no longer recognized in the flesh, i.e., no longer in Adam, but IN CHRIST. “Now all these things are from God who RECONCILED us to Himself THROUGH CHRIST, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation” (vs. 18). Reconciliation to God here refers to Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross, not confessing sins after baptism. The “ministry” of reconciliation is described as the “word” of reconciliation in verse 19. The *“word” *regarding man’s reconciliation to God through faith in Christ Jesus began with the Apostles; it was entrusted to them by Christ. That’s what they were sent out to proclaim. This has nothing to do with auricular confession, in fact, Paul appeals to the unbeliever amongst them, “we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” This is not confession of sins, but an appeal to believe their “word” concerning Christ and His reconciliatory work on the cross on their behalf; for, "He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God IN HIM" (vs. 21).
This is all objective truth concerning reconciliation through faith in Christ alone. How about you! Will you, by faith, receive the *“word” *of reconciliation, i…e, that God was in Christ (on the cross) reconciling you to Himself, not counting your trespasses against you (see Col. 2:13-14)? Remember, the righteous man walks BY FAITH. You must first start by believing what Christ did, once-for-all.
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mercygate
Guest
Three points only.
Your persist in your obdurate and erroneous insistence that Catholics do not accept forgiveness and reconciliation through faith in Christ.
You asked for an example in Scripture of an apostle forgiving sin. I gave you that. Paul states that **he **has forgiven a sinner **in the person of Christ. **If that is a “straw,” it goes in the same bale as the Epistle of James – Luther’s “epistle of straw.” – where confession is counseled. When you add these “straws” together in light of Mt. 16:18-19 and Jn. 20:23, supported by the practice of the Church from earliest times, the case is sound.
Will I receive the “word of reconciliation?” You bet: in every sense of the word. Heart, soul, mind and spirit. I have an appointment with my confessor on Saturday morning. Him, the Boss, and I – we get together this way about once a month. Nothing, except the Eucharist, is as beautiful as this sacrament, nothing as bracing, as tender, as consoling as the grace of Jesus Christ received on his terms, in his Church.
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways,I will hear from heaven and will FORGIVE their SINS and heal their land II Chronicles 7;14. Does this not apply for today? 
God Bless
God Bless
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Ozzie
Guest
Then why the sacrament of penance/reconciliation?
This is compared to the man who receives a letter from the mortgage compary stating that as a gift they have themselves paid, in full, the balance of his mortgage debt. And after receiving that letter he rejoices greatly, shares the good news with his friends, who also rejoice with him. And then when the first of the month comes around he totally disregards the letter and sends in his monthly payment. Though he rejoiced because of the letter from the mortgage company, ultimately, his action on the first of the month proved he didn’t believe it.
To pay your mortgage payment?(QUOTE]You asked for an example in Scripture of an apostle forgiving sin. I gave you that. Paul states that **he **has forgiven a sinner in the person of Christ.This does not compare to Rome’s sacrament of penance. It was a disciplinary action and then a restoration of fellowship.
Something is far more grand: The Biblical truth that God Himself has once-for-all reconciled you to Himself through the substitutionary sacrifice of His beloved Son. And His once-for-all work of reconciliation is applied to you, in full, at the time of personal faith in Him - to the glory of Christ.
One thing you might consider confessing is your lack of faith in His Son’s finished work of reconciliation on your behalf. And then in turn your “confessor” can confess the same lack of faith to you. We are instructed to confess our sins one to another.
Christ died for ALL sins, before and after baptism. Sins before and after baptism are all forgiven in the same way: Through personal faith in Jesus Christ. Now that, dear friend, is truly beautiful.
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Ozzie
Guest
In context it’s said to the nation of Israel. At the time (and in context) they were His covenant people, his covenant nation. It is not a general principle carried over into the New Testament. God’s people during this Church age are all those (both Jew and Gentile) who have had their sins forever forgiven through personal faith in Jesus Christ. God is not healing lands today, but saving souls from the penalty of sin through faith in His beloved Son.Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways,I will hear from heaven and will FORGIVE their SINS and heal their land II Chronicles 7;14. Does this not apply for today?
ACTS 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
ACTS 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
I find it amazing how men constantly try to find another way besides faith in Christ alone. “Humble themselves,” “pray,” “seek His face,” anything…, but avoid the cross. God has provided no other way but the cross of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. All He asks is you put your faith in His Son’s infinite work which He accomplished there on your behalf. He didn’t make it difficult.
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jman507
Guest
It is because of my faith and because of my belief and because of my love of Christ that I go to reconcilliation. If you are faithful and loving of a spouse, would it not be keeping with faith to give an honest account of unfaithfulness. It is only because of the cross that those who have received the Holy Orders, the one’s who are sent, have the power to give the grace and absolution through the name of Christ. It is only in Christ one can receive the forgiveness of sins. Faithfulness is not just a mental ascent to God. “Confess, therefore, your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be saved.” James 5:16.
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dennisknapp
Guest
A beautiful “truth” invented in the 16th century…Uh, no. What you fail to realize it that we do believe in the once for all sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but we also believe that this once for all sacrifice is applied to us through the sacraments of the Church.
Its like get a note from your banker saying the loan you took out has been forgiven and then after you take out another loan he calls you the next month and say that that loan too is forgiven, and so on and so on. Christ is always there ready to welcome us back like a son, again and again.
I have said it before and I’ll say it again,
What is funny is that you come here and give us YOUR interpretation of Scripture and expect us to believe you. You are in essence commiting the same “sin” as you claim of the Church, except there is one HUGE difference–you have no Authority. You are historically cut off from the truth and you don’t even know it. You have no regard for history and see all those who came before you as horribly decieved. Again, show me a Christian like yourself in the first 1600 years of Christianity and I will give what you say some consideration. If not, you are just making irrelevant noise.
Peace
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mercygate
Guest
Because it is the Christ-given means of approaching the mystery of my redemption in in a vital RELATIONSHIP with Christ himself.
That’s the point: Paul forgave him (restored him to fellowship with God and the Church), and he did it in the person of Christ.
You persist in your obdurate and erroneous belief that Catholics do not believe that Christ is our salvation or that his sacrifice is sufficient. Even if you don’t accept the Catholic position, your failure to grasp it at this point incomprehensible. Have you EVER read a Catholic treatment of the subject? You give absolutely no indication whatsoever that you have **any **idea of what Catholics really believe.
Do *you *confess to your brethren? I’ll bet not but would be pleased to be mistaken. My confessor does indeed approach this sacrament regularly. Why would he confess to me? I have not the faculty to pronounce absolution. But let us not be contentious. This is a VERY important aspect of our faith, and to waste time playing tit-for-tat demeans my Savior.
Ozzie, many of us, including myself, are converts. Our faith in Christ is the greatest treasure of our hearts, and the struggle to embrace the fullness of truth has been the single most compelling theme of our lives. We have experienced that fullness in the Catholic Church in ways we could not have imagined before she embraced us. We have explained the Catholic view as best we could – and I believe we have done it very well. To say that Catholics lack faith in Christ shows a woeful hardness of heart. I understand – first hand – how offensive the Catholic Church is to many Protestants. If you are unwilling to accept the Catholic position, so be it. But to demean it, and therewith us, does credit neither to you nor to your Savior.
There you go again – assuming that Catholics do not have l faith in Jesus Christ.
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Ozzie
Guest
Yet God says:
ACTS 10:43 “*Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” *
The problem is, you still continue to pay your monthly payment (sacrament) in spite of the bank statement showing zero balance. You put no trust (faith) in the Bank’s word. Sound familiar?
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Ozzie
Guest
Actually, you don’t go “to” reconciliation but “for” reconciliation. The Catholic catechism states that you must confess in order to be reconciled to God and the church. But God’s immutable Word states:
COL 1:22-23 "yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, *in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was **proclaimed *in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."
The invention of the sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation is anti-Biblical and “moves away” from the hope of the gospel (good news) that was “proclaimed” by the Apostles regarding the *once-for-all *reconciliatory work of Christ on the cross.
ACTS 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
If you love Him, then believe the Apostolic message concerning Him. No man (Pope, priest, prelate or pastor) has the power to absolve sins. No man can reconcile you to God. Such was the work of Christ, and Christ alone. You are required to believe, trust, in Him.
2COR 5:18 “Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,”
C
Curious
Guest
Here’s something I thought was interesting. In Acts chapter 8 and beginning with verse 9 starts the story of Simon the Scorcerer. He was something of a big shot and then he heard Philip preach and believed and got baptized. (verses 12,13). He saw the apostles lay hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit and he offered them money for that power to lay hands on people and receive the Holy Spirit. (verses 17-19)
Peter rebuked him and said
ACTS 8:22
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
Here, Peter tells the guy to pray to God himself.
ACTS 8:24
24 Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me
But here, Simon asks Peter to do the prayer for him? Do you consider that forgiveness by Peter? Or intercession perhaps?
Remember, breathe slowly. It’s just a simple question, something I found and was curious about. I thought it might contribute. Read carefully before you start lecturing me and answering questions I didn’t even ask.
Peter rebuked him and said
ACTS 8:22
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
Here, Peter tells the guy to pray to God himself.
ACTS 8:24
24 Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me
But here, Simon asks Peter to do the prayer for him? Do you consider that forgiveness by Peter? Or intercession perhaps?
Remember, breathe slowly. It’s just a simple question, something I found and was curious about. I thought it might contribute. Read carefully before you start lecturing me and answering questions I didn’t even ask.
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BIC
Guest
Isidore
Isnt GOD our mediator? Why would our Lord and savior give us the lords prayer to ask for forgiveness of our sins?
BIC
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mercygate
Guest
That is an interesting question since, as I understand it, after you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are so covered by the righteousness of Christ that you are either incapable of sin, or God has closed his eyes to it.
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mercygate
Guest
That is an interesting question since, as I understand it, after you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are so covered by the righteousness of Christ that you are either incapable of sin, or God has closed his eyes to it.
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jman507
Guest
Actually since it is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, along with the sacrament of confession and the sacrament of Penance, I can go ‘to’ Reconciliation ‘for’ reconciliation.
But the question I’d like to ask is what is your definition of faith, and along with how you think Pual is using the term of faith?
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Ozzie
Guest
Peter understood his deceitful intention and, you might say, “called him on to the carpet.” Do you REALLY think this parallels the sacrament in question? REALLY??? Does the text go on to state that Peter prayed for him and assigned Simon to repeat 135 “Our Fathers?” Does Peter go on to say to Simon, “your sin is absolved?”Here’s something I thought was interesting. In Acts chapter 8 and beginning with verse 9 starts the story of Simon the Scorcerer. He was something of a big shot and then he heard Philip preach and believed and got baptized. (verses 12,13). He saw the apostles lay hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit and he offered them money for that power to lay hands on people and receive the Holy Spirit. (verses 17-19)
Peter rebuked him and said
ACTS 8:22
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
Here, Peter tells the guy to pray to God himself.
ACTS 8:24
24 Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me
But here, Simon asks Peter to do the prayer for him? Do you consider that forgiveness by Peter? Or intercession perhaps?
Remember, breathe slowly. It’s just a simple question, something I found and was curious about. I thought it might contribute. Read carefully before you start lecturing me and answering questions I didn’t even ask.
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