With all due respect, sometimes I feel the same way she does. It looks as if what she said was entirely true of some people who have been posted on this thread and others. I’m sorry if that offends you, but it offends people like SugarMagnolia (and me sometimes) too.
It would be nice to consider that not everyone feels the same, or is capable of enduring in the same way as others do. For every “story” I hear about a woman “sufferering emotionally” due to having an abortion, I can counter it with another story about a suffering woman who did get pregnant…and another about how a rape victim turned getting pregnant into something positive that resulting from an evil. Not everyone is the same. And I just don’t believe it’s anyone’s place to force their opinion on a rape victim. That’s MOHO.
You might be right, it’s not important enough (to me) to distinguish the difference. The point is, in order to be reconciled in the Church, one has to “change”. It’s unlikely this rape victim will be raped again, therefore I see no reason why she couldn’t be reconciled with the Church. Also, she was only 9. Not only the priest callous and cold-hearted to excommunicate her at all, but I wonder if he took into account her emotional and cognitive ability to make the decision in the first place.
while Rence has linked to the opinion of a priest, whose opinion is quite sought after, btw. The document that she is referring to is put out by the USCCB.
**It’s not even an article I came upon, it’s the same one you referred me to. However, I agree with it, and find it a reasonable guideline. If it was put out by the USCCB it’s good enough for me. **
At issue, in terms of the document itself, is whether the US guildelines are in line with the Vatican. Without a specific respectable source stating that they are not, my thought is that if this were in opposition to the Vatican they would have addressed this directly since this is not a recent document. It does seem to fit my understanding of Humane Vitae and Pope John Paul II’s comments. Not quoting it as the voice of the Magisterium, but it is an important document. I would love to hear from someone who has more information about this.
**The problem is, no one here really knows what the answer is. They are just going by how they feel, just like everyone else. For every article or reference you find on one side, you can find one on “the other side”. And you know what? I’ve seen the same exact exerpts take out of the CCC on various subject matters intepreted differently by people coming from opposite sides of the spectrum. This forum has great information and is a great resource. But I’m not living my life by the words written by those on this forum. If I truly have something goin on in my life, and I’m not sure of the actions I should take, I’ll pick up the phone and call a PRIEST, not come here to ask about it. If I do, I’m going to get a crazy response from an ultra consertative, and then the next post will be a crazy reponse from an ultra liberal without any real authority coming from either. I found that article put out by the USCCB perfectly reasonable and I don’t think there’s anyone here who can convince me that it’s not correct. And if they do, I’m confident someone else will come up with a counter-proof. **
In terms of ‘justifying abortion’, Rence has been clear that her stance has changed directly because of prolife people’s intolerance and lack of kindness. I do not think (Rence, please correct me here if I’m wrong) … I do not think that Rence is trying to justify abortion, only acknowledge the suffering and pain of women who believe that need to have one and the anger at a perception that they are being judged or spoken cruelly to. If we are unkind and not helping them, who are we to tell them anything.
Yes, that’s part of it. You’re right.
I know, it’s not that simple. but I do understand the frustration when seeing others suffer. Sadly, I find more and more that she is right. Doesn’t change my mind about abortion being legal or the baby’s right to life, but it sure is starting to make me see the term Christian in a different light.
** One thing I"ve learned is that I’m not about to let anyone else make decisions for ME or MY body, and I didn’t realize how hard people are trying to do exactly that. I had no clue the extent that people were trying to infringe their beliefs on others (and on me). And I understand completely that non-catholics and non-practicing catholics are fighting for their freedom. And now I understand why. And they should not be subject to the whims of those who think they have the right to force their opinion on them. And thankfully…they’re quite simply not. Not yet and not here anyway. And I don’t see that changing too near in the future. So while it’s nice to know how others feel about what YOU should do and not do in your own situation, it’s not like they can do anything about it except spit fire at you if you don’t agree with them. **
In Rences quote (below) she quotes an article that talks about the USCCB directives. The portion of the article she bolded is NOT in the USCCB document.
The following excerpt was from the first article:
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
**Therefore, before administering contraceptives to a rape victim, health care providers must ascertain first her medical history (including menstrual history, recent sexual activity, and contraceptive usage). A pregnancy test should be performed. If she is not pregnant but her medical history suggests the possibility that ovulation may have occurred, then health care providers ought to administer a Luteinizing Hormone urine dip test or a progesterone blood level test. These tests would indicate if ovulation has indeed occurred and thereby a child was possibly conceived. If these tests are not available in a timely way or at all, treatment should proceed as long as there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation has occurred.
Here again is a key point. If there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation has taken place, the right of the woman to prevent the pregnancy should be favored, even if this unknowingly and unintentionally expels a conceived ovum.**
I can’t tell you how much resistance I got to the above from some pro-lifers on this forum, when in fact, it came from the Bishops.
And I admit, it makes me feel a whole lot better.
As a victim of rape, this really struck a nerve. I can tell you that it’s not that easy. Rapists hardly are ever jailed, unless they already have been convicted of several violent offenses. The justice system favors the criminal. I went to Hell and back making sure my rapist paid half of what he should have. He was 3 months away from being 18 at the time of the assault (I was 16 years old), so he got off easy because he was just a juvenile. He’s a registered sex offender and has to take some “healthy sexuality” classes. He’s on probation for a year. That’s it.
I sympathize. I’m a rape survivor as well, and I never reported my rapist. He’s still walking free and going to school and lives near my school. It’s painful to go through.
I don’t realise because from what I know that was not the case. Think for a minute about the development of a 9 year old’s womb.
Doc, what do you know about this case? Do you have a link to the actual news article handy? I haven’t heard of this case at all, not that that surprises me considering I’m buried in school material…
I got the article I was referring to: LINKDoc, what do you know about this case? Do you have a link to the actual news article handy? I haven’t heard of this case at all, not that that surprises me considering I’m buried in school material…
Hi Rence.
It is, in part at least, putting our choice ahead of God’s desire. He is the Creator of all life, not the rapist, not the mother, only God.Agreed. There have been some personal comments and some that may not have been meant that way, but sound that way.
In fact today’s reading was about just that:
**You are absolutely correct and I am thankful for the clarification.
Hi Rence.
This distinction is very important, particularly if you’re using excommunication as an example to support your idea. Again, you sound as though the victim is being punished and this is simply not so. In fact, we’re not talking about punishment here, we are talking about natural consequence of a choice. The Church doesn’t create the consequence, it simple acknowledges the reality of it.
Here would like to clarify the priest does not excommunicate, excommunication is simply automatic act caused by the decision to terminate the pregnancy. See Catholic Encyclopedia, “But a parish priest cannot inflict this penalty nor even declare that it is incurred, i.e. he cannot do so in an official and judicial manner.”
**You’re right, a Catholic should know that automatic excommunication is a result of choosing to have an abortion.
But the article said, “Archibishop **Jose Cardoso Sobrinho of the coastal city of Recife announced that the Vatican was excommunicating the family of a local girl who had been raped and impregnated with twins by her stepfather, because they had chosen to have the girl undergo an abortion.” The announcement by the Archbishop sent confusing signals to the public regarding the dogmatic teaching that you clarified above.
And IMOHO, the Church is setting itself up for criticism and disapproval by making an example out of this case instead using better judgement by making an example of a less complicated case. This was a highly sensitive case, and acting so uncharitable and unkind was just poor judgement. IMOHO, and again, this is MOHO, The Archbishop also involved a nine-year old child in public humiliation and made a spectacle out of her, her situation, the Church. He may as well have paraded her around the city with a big scarlet “HERETIC” written across her chest. I know he didn’t excommunicate her, but he added to her disgrace just the same. It was inexcusable, and I’m not the only one who feels that way. The Church would have done a better job by announcing “that the Vactican was excommunicating” patients in an abortion clinic. Do you realize what kind of precedence that would set? Of course, it may not have the intended effect on the American public, but it would have gotten the point across, IMOHO, better. All the Church did in this case was make the pro-choice movement stronger, and alienate the Catholics in the region. It resulted in the stepping down of the Archbishop, which sent mixed messages to the people. Then a time after the Archbishop stepped down, the Church sent out another message restating its position on abortion, after making the archbishop step down. Just poor judgement from the beginning.
Many people think it is a punishment, like someone pointing a finger and saying ‘you’re evil’. This is not the case at all. This is simply a recognition of an act that, in it’s choice, separates the person from God. The Church is acknowledging the separation from God, chosen by the person or persons, not punishing sinners. That this is sometimes more public (in terms of priest’s specific actions for example) is more to keep the Church’s teachings clear and point out that the priest is not in line with the Church. Again, I think this is very important, no one is punishing, it’s a acknowledgement of a chosen action and the sin involved separates them from God?
**Thank you for reminding of us about that distinction. I’m just eternally grateful that we don’t live in the past times when corporeal punishments were a result of that separation from God that excommunication is. **
So, in terms of your above comment, “In order to be reconciled in the Church, one has to change”. Well yes, one has to no longer be in sin and separate from God. The priest has the power to forgive sins. No surprise there. There is no reason why the whole family couldn’t be reconciled with the Church, but it is not the lack of rape (any more than it was the rape) that caused the separation.
**I’m sure everyone involved will be reconciled if they want to be. **
Again, I appreciate this discussion very much.
**I do too. It’s nice to be able to share our thoughts, explore our thoughts, discuss with others without being called names, being told what WE think, or what WE are. **
The article that you first referred me to:
I do wonder what the circumstances were that she didn’t get medical attention immediately and take EC to prevent this situation in the first place. I was hoping the article might have shed some light on that. Where she lives, abortion is illegal except in the case of rape and threat to the woman’s life. So I’m sure EC would have been available as well. Perhaps, being just a child, she was too embarassed to tell her mother until it was too late. If you don’t take care of these things in the ER immediately after the rape you’ll end up dealing with a preganancy one way or another, whether you’re able to cope with it or not.
It is truly a strained view to believe any posters on this thread are defending the actions of a rapist.