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kage_ar
Guest
There is wrong and right. Black and white. Good and evil.
Only the devil paints in grey.
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Only the devil paints in grey.
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Apryl
Guest
Its a good thing that your post started with ‘personally’, and this post uses IMHO to let us know that you are speaking of your opinion.
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Rence
Guest
Rence agrees with you Doc, thanks
What happens between my priest and myself is no one’s business but my own,
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Rence
Guest
I respect this as your opinion. Having this discussion is refreshing in that we are not deteriorating and, perhaps, our words and example with speak to others who come along and read them.
One can hope
Honestly, my goal is not to change your mind. The discussion is important, in and of itself or we’ll never bridge this emotional gap. We put our honesty and opinions out there, praying that they are in line with God’s will and that He will use them however He sees fit, no? Not a challenge, an exchange. I hope that is how it seems to you as well.
It does
I do understand your opinion, in theory, even it shared briefly in my 20’s. Truth is Truth, whatever you call it. Please know that for me, my opinion on abortion has nothing to do with Catholicism and everything to do with humanity. My Faith requires me to follow my conscience in terms of protect innocent life. There are many, many agnostic and atheists who are prolife. The problem is when our value for all human life is so great and being Catholic is such a part of who I am, it is hard to talk generically about a human life.
Here’s an example, as I love analogies. Members NAMBLA believes and supports sexual and emotional relationships with young boys in spite of society’s intolerance of this and miles of evidence that show the damage done to these children. Society holds the men accountable when they are able to. Why does society not also protect innocent children as they used to? PLEASE DO NOT SEE THIS AS A COMPARISON TO WOMEN IN TERMS OF THEIR BEHAVIOR BEING EVIL. I would never discount the pain and turmoil and suffering of women, or condemn her for the decision. It is just not that simple an issue. I write this to show an example of when society steps in, in spite of someone’s right to their own body. Both situations, affect the life of another human being regardless of your religious beliefs.
I really can’t relate to your example because the law steps in to protect a minor in the case of NAMBLA. Whereas an adult woman should govern over her own body. I do, however, agree that women under the age of 18 should have parental consent for most issues, unless emancipated or with legal intervention.
Of course not. You have shared honest opinions in a forum where they are often not well received for which I am grateful. Your concern and compassion for women in such a hard situation is so very clear, too. I believe that we both want what is best for them. So we disagree. Let’s keep talking, with kindness, and let God sort out the good, shall we?
**Ok
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Rence
Guest
Now, this wasn’t very kind.uch: Why am I a smaller person because I have seen women who thought that abortion was the answer only to discover years later that they have a pain and loss that they will never fill? See afterabortion.org. I care about the women entirely, why do people think because we prefer that women not choose a quick fix, if it causes them great suffering later. Which is more compassionate?
I know you do Fedelis, my reply had nothing to do about any interaction between us and wasn’t meant for you. It was meant for someone being rude and unkind.
I believe that it takes a bigger person to gather all the information, react in Love and speak out even if it’s unpopular or unwelcome. Not lecturing or harassing, just speaking the Truth.
Yes you are and I agree with you. The fact that you and I may not agree in our conclusions to what we get out of the information doesn’t mean that you’re lecturing or harassing, it just means we’re different. I appreciate your kindness and wouldn’t want to offend you.
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Rence
Guest
Doc, I can acknowledge that some rape victims might see a conception as a light at the end of the tunnel, or a good thing that came from a bad thing. It’s very real to these women and it turns out well for both the woman and the child. I can acknowledge that some women who get raped would or could welcome a pregnancy. And you know what? I think that’s wonderful and noble.
However, I don’t share that sentiment. I just can’t relate to it at all. It would not be a gift to ME. And clearly, it’s not a “gift” to everyone if the Church allows EC in the case of rape, as it does in this excerpt that can’t be denied by anyone on this forum who can read, even the most staunch of traditionals:
usccb.org/bishops/directives.shtml
Compassionate and understanding care should be given to a person who is the victim of sexual assault. Health care providers should cooperate with law enforcement officials and offer the person psychological and spiritual support as well as accurate medical information. A female who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medications that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum.19
Clearly, if the Church itself makes an allowance for a rape victim to attempt to circumvent a conception with EC under specific guideline, then even the Church doesn’t regard conception after a rape to be a “gift”. What it is rather, is the consequence of someone who has used the gift of Free Will to do evil. Sex leads to pregnancy, pure and simple, whether it was consensual or forced. That’s a fact of life. And that consequence is NEVER an abomination, but it certainly is not a gift to some. If you can turn it into a gift, well that’s wonderful. Not everyone can. Clearly not everyone can. I couldn’t it. It would be too much for me to bear. I pray to God that I’m never ever in that situation to begin with. And I pray for women who are, unfortunately, in that situation. I empathize with them completely.
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kage_ar
Guest
Thanks be to God! You finally quoted the actual directives!!!
You even bolded the key part “It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum.”
So, do you now agree with the Bishops, that these meds can only be given if the medical professionals are certain that conception has not occurred. That we can never abort a baby because of the crime of the father?
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Rence
Guest
I used that exerpt to explain my opinion that conception as a result of rape is not a “gift”.
As to my personal beliefs: I believe that Fr. Saunders is more than capable of extrapolating and intepreting various Church documents to be able to formulate the article he wrote. catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
I believe his article to be reasonable and moral and I agree with it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if they don’t want to accept his article I’m perfectly find with it. One is certainly not obligated to learn from his articles. However, I’m entitled to my opinion as well.
As to my personal beliefs: I believe that Fr. Saunders is more than capable of extrapolating and intepreting various Church documents to be able to formulate the article he wrote. catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
I believe his article to be reasonable and moral and I agree with it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if they don’t want to accept his article I’m perfectly find with it. One is certainly not obligated to learn from his articles. However, I’m entitled to my opinion as well.
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kage_ar
Guest
Prayers that your heart will turn back to the teaching of the Church, that life begins at conception.
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hellopeople
Guest
There is a difference between a baby still developing in the whom and a baby that has been born.
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Apryl
Guest
… and there is a difference between cute people, and not so cute people.
… and tall people and short people…
…and blondes and brunettes…
… and rich people and poor people…
… and dog lovers and cat lovers…
… and Spartans and Wolverines…
… I got a barrel of 'em.
But the point remains: they are all still people whom you nor I have the authority to play god and decide if they live or die.
Unless you know something I don’t know.
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wanner47
Guest
Such as? Don’t you think the woman who killed her newborn has the same fears and etc. as the pregnant woman? Why does the pregnant woman deserve more compassion and understanding if she kills her baby?
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Janet1983
Guest
Different stages of development do not change the value of a human being. I am more developed than an infant or a toddler and still we share the same value as human beings.
Why should the fact that a baby in the womb is less developed than a baby that is just born change his or her value in any way?
Some children that are aborted are actually capable of living if they were outside of the womb. What is the difference between a baby at 5 1/2 months conceptional age in the womb and a baby born premature at 5 1/2 months conceptional age?
James Elgin Gill (born on 20 May 1987) and Amillia Taylor (born on 24 October 2006) were born just under 20 weeks from fertilization, or a few days past the midpoint of an average full-term pregnancy. Despite their premature births, both developed into healthy children.
Amillia shortly after she was born:
Amillia on her 2nd birthday:
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
Doc
MOST women choose to have the child regardless, and many who do have an abortion suffer greatly and say that they were pressured into to by well-meaning family members and medical professionals or counselors at clinics.
There is always adoption.
I might agree with you, if it weren’t for the fact that God created Life and that being a society that willing kills their offspring does not bode well for our society.
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
at what point?
and who gets to decide?
and what if they’re wrong?
There is absolutely NO difference to God.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
…and I have nothing against someone making that choice when it’s the right one for them. Do you have statistics for raper survivors not having emergency contraception or abortions? That’s where they have that choice. When people have the choice, plenty of them make the “right” choice, but if they did’t have the choice, they end up resenting the lack of choice even though that lack of choice didn’t personally constrain them.
As for the effect on wider society, again that’s straying away from the moral argument to an empirical argument.
As for the effect on wider society, again that’s straying away from the moral argument to an empirical argument.
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hellopeople
Guest
The whole issue is not logical. The point of an abortion is not to go through the pregnancy. There are many people who will adopt babies and pay the mother for it. Why would anyone go through the pregnancy and kill their baby afterwards.
And, it is different. One is a baby, one is a fetus. One is perfectly capable of sustaining life without the mother, the other is not.
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nilofc
Guest
Just because the father is a rapist…so the child must be killed?
Maybe those who promote this evil behaviour be given the chance to hold that knife that’ll will slit the throat of a baby. Let’s see if their hands is as strong as the will of their minds and mouths.
Maybe those who promote this evil behaviour be given the chance to hold that knife that’ll will slit the throat of a baby. Let’s see if their hands is as strong as the will of their minds and mouths.
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Fidelis_Unus
Guest
Rence, even the bishops and the Church disagree with this interpretation.
LIFE is always a Gift from God, regardless of how He formed it. Fr. Saunders acknowledges that if life is not present, that efforts can be made at prevention; however if God wants the life to be formed regardless, ending the Life is destroying a gift from God.
Yes, EC when life is not yet created, under such terrible circumstances is acceptable to Fr. Saunders. (STILL DO NOT HAVE SUPPORTING INFO FROM VATICAN HERE) Even Fr. Saunders is clear at this point, prevention, not abortion or even unintended abortion from EC is permissable.
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hellopeople
Guest
Maybe you who judge these violated women should feel what they are going through…and maybe your opinion will change.
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