Can raped girls abort?

[Fidelis_Unus]

…and I have nothing against someone making that choice when it’s the right one for them. Do you have statistics for raper survivors not having emergency contraception or abortions? That’s where they have that choice. When people have the choice, plenty of them make the “right” choice, but if they did’t have the choice, they end up resenting the lack of choice even though that lack of choice didn’t personally constrain them.

As for the effect on wider society, again that’s straying away from the moral argument to an empirical argument.

Generally I have found statistics unhelpful in such discussions as eyes start rolling. I can give a couple sources that support a 70% figure, these are ones that we know about. The sources are: Reasons Given For Having Abortions In the United States, William Johnston. More current sources can be found at **afteraboriton.org. Hear from the women who have actually gone through it. ** For example, see Pregnancy and Sexual Assault, The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, Dr. Mahkorn, “Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent chose against abortion.”

This would indicate that we are not helping women by encouraging an abortion to make it easier for them. The guilt from abortion gets intertwined with the guilt of abortion, making recovery more difficult and what would have been a more short term trauma becomes a lifelong sense of guilt and loss, at least according to these women. I believe that we try to help women in the short term and, instead, cause more suffering for them in the long term. This is what happens when we interfere with God’s will. Well-intentioned? absolutely, but are we really helping them? I don’t think so.

One additional thought, provided abortions for incest victims has been shown to perpetuate abuse, not end it. see Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting from Sexual Assault. Battle Creek, Acorn Publishing. A pregnancy would post a threat to an abuser and, particularly if the abuser is a family member (which is usually the case) a victim can be forced to have an abortion and, thereby, allow the abuse to continue. A pregnancy may have been a way to get out of the abuse.

That said, YES society suffers, women suffer, and this is not a classroom. Not noting this means I get attacked for religious beliefs when my opinion on abortion is not just faith-based.

 

[Doc_Keele]

I certainly wasn’t encouraging abortion. Having a pregnancy as a means to stop abuse hardly seems like respecting life? I would imagine the issue is more that abortion allows secrecy, so there are other ways to achieve the same aim.

 

[Apryl]

Maybe you who judge these violated women should feel what they are going through…and maybe your opinion will change.

Are we judging the women who were raped and react with an emotional response that would prompt them to go against what all people of every Judeo-Christian group, and other standards for morality, while you are not judging the baby/fetus/zygote who was created because … they were created?

It doesn’t matter who has experienced the vile act of a rape.

Just like I’m sure that we can all know of the kid who was terribly embarrassed at school and wanted to drop out. Is that reasonable? No. You wouldn’t end your academic career for a moment that you will get over, whether you end your career or not.

Having an abortion to end the rape is like getting drunk to end your problems: it doesn’t work! What you have instead of ended problems is problems AND a hangover… or in this case, the memory of the rape AND the awareness that in a moment of excitement, you killed your baby and probably have sentenced yourself to medical and mental problems that will change your life.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Rence agrees with you Doc, thanks What happens between my priest and myself is no one’s business but my own,

Absolutely agree here.

Hey lady, how are you today? I’ve got a couple thoughts from your comments.

*“I really can’t relate to your example because the law steps in to protect a minor in the case of NAMBLA. Whereas an adult woman should govern over her own body. I do, however, agree that women under the age of 18 should have parental consent for most issues, unless emancipated or with legal intervention”
*
Two thoughts here; 1) I believe that both should be protected by the law and by society and 2) this is one of the many points that we agree on, as I often find when having real discussions.

“I know you do Fedelis, my reply had nothing to do about any interaction between us and wasn’t meant for you. It was meant for someone being rude and unkind.”

Thanks Rence, however, I did fit the description. I was trying to humorous. Again, not trying to be critical, but it seems as though one person makes an angry or judgment comment we all want to bite back (myself included). We won’t get anywhere and, quite frankly, I’m sick of the meanness and personal attacks. It’s wearisome. I’m practing humor to soften points (think I need more practice). Our discussion would be refreshing if the topic weren’t so painful for everyone.

Hope you have a wonderful week.

 

[vz71]

And, it is different. One is a baby, one is a fetus. One is perfectly capable of sustaining life without the mother, the other is not.

If left on its own, the baby will die.
It is still 100% dependent upon others to insure it can survive.

 

[wanner47]

The whole issue is not logical. The point of an abortion is not to go through the pregnancy. There are many people who will adopt babies and pay the mother for it. Why would anyone go through the pregnancy and kill their baby afterwards.

A lot of women are in denial about their pregnancies and/or keep them secret until they give birth. Why do you think Safe Haven laws exist?

And, it is different. One is a baby, one is a fetus. One is perfectly capable of sustaining life without the mother, the other is not.

Really? You’re saying the fetus currently in my womb (due tomorrow) cannot survive outside my womb? Better let my OB know; he offered me induction a week ago. I’m sure he would not have done so if he had your advanced medical knowledge and knew that my baby could not survive outside the womb.

Incidentally, did you know it’s still legal for me to kill my baby right now, if I chose? All I would have to do is claim severe mental distress and get an abortionist willing to do the job. Would you think that is fine and dandy?

Do you have any idea what the current age of viability is, hellopeople?

 

[jmcrae]

…so because God allows a rapist’s sperm to fertilise the egg, it doesn’t mean it’s his will?

I know I’m responding late, but, I just wanted to say:

Only God can infuse the joined sperm and egg with a soul. It only begins to divide and differentiate into a human being, if God infuses it with a soul at the moment of meeting. God can only infuse it with a soul, on purpose. He can never do so by accident.

If God chooses not to infuse it with a soul, it will simply come apart and be washed away in the menstrual fluid two weeks later.

 

[jmcrae]

The whole issue is not logical. The point of an abortion is not to go through the pregnancy. There are many people who will adopt babies and pay the mother for it. Why would anyone go through the pregnancy and kill their baby afterwards.

And, it is different. One is a baby, one is a fetus. One is perfectly capable of sustaining life without the mother, the other is not.

Listen, I have met 18 year olds who are not capable of sustaining their own lives without the help of their mothers. If that’s the criteria, then why not make leaving home the cut-off mark for an abortion, rather than leaving the womb? After all, it would reduce the emotional suffering of the woman, to not have to put up with a snotty teenager who still doesn’t know how to do his own laundry or cook his own meals, yet criticizes everything she does.

(I’m kidding, of course!)

 

[Rence]

Hey lady, how are you today? I’ve got a couple thoughts from your comments.

I’m good It’s been a good and productive day, how are you?

“I know you do Fedelis, my reply had nothing to do about any interaction between us and wasn’t meant for you. It was meant for someone being rude and unkind.”

Thanks Rence, however, I did fit the description. I was trying to humorous. Again, not trying to be critical, but it seems as though one person makes an angry or judgment comment we all want to bite back (myself included). We won’t get anywhere and, quite frankly, I’m sick of the meanness and personal attacks. It’s wearisome. I’m practing humor to soften points (think I need more practice). Our discussion would be refreshing if the topic weren’t so painful for everyone.

**I disagree with you While we have different opinions and views, I don’t recall you making insensitve and rude comments. Of course I may be mistaken. And of course, I might have even forgotten.

The fact that the topic is so painful for everyone is what makes it so difficult. Emotions run high, and it doesn’t take much to really upset someone. We all, including I, need to try and not knee-jerk react to posts that upset us. I guess we agree here too I am trying, but I’m not always successful.

I’m sorry that some things that I believe or think upset you. But they are my thoughts and feelings. Maybe we can talk about those things sometime. **

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Hey Rence.

My comments were just relfecting comments in general here and on other threads, not directed toward you. I have made comments that, looking back, didn’t sound at all the way that I intended. Being able to have your opinions come across exactly as intended is a gift. Makes emotional issues on her a veritable minefield. I tend to be very sarcastic and bland, which doesn’t come across well. Anyway it was a general fatigue, not you. Sweet reply, though, thanks.

This is a painful topic because I believe that life is of value at the moment of conception, not lesser value. Either it is a human being or it is not. You can’t be a little bit human any more than you can be a little bit pregnant.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

I certainly wasn’t encouraging abortion. Having a pregnancy as a means to stop abuse hardly seems like respecting life? I would imagine the issue is more that abortion allows secrecy, so there are other ways to achieve the same aim.

You seem more interested in picking apart answers.

No one said carrying the pregnancy to term is the way to stop abuse. The point was that abortion does no favor to incest victims because it allows the abuse to continue. There may be other ways to achieve the same aim (in stopping the abuse), except that by having an abortion, the problem isn’t brought out into the light of day, so those other ways are never utilized.

None of which has anything to do with the recognizing the value of human life, which is priceless, regardless of how it was formed.

 

[Doc_Keele]

It’s simple enough to require enquiries into all underage pregnancies so that incest will be uncovered. Of course banning abortions might only lead to the abuser forcing the abused to undergo a back street abortion with all the health risks inherent, but I expect the foetus’s rights outweigh the mother’s yet again.

 

[Apryl]

It’s simple enough to require enquiries into all underage pregnancies so that incest will be uncovered. Of course banning abortions might only lead to the abuser forcing the abused to undergo a back street abortion with all the health risks inherent, but I expect the foetus’s rights outweigh the mother’s yet again.

A-hem…

I have been quiet for a few days… guess now is as good a time as any to pipe up, hunh

Doc, I don’t want to put words into your mouth, but I also don’t want to misunderstand you.

Are you, or are you not, saying that while abortion may not be a great thing, for some pregnancies, it should happen. It is better to have abortions in clinics, where it is legal rather than have any one undergo a back-alley abortion.

Just trying to be clear on your stance…so we can at least try to speak the same language

 

[Rence]

It’s simple enough to require enquiries into all underage pregnancies so that incest will be uncovered. Of course banning abortions might only lead to the abuser forcing the abused to undergo a back street abortion with all the health risks inherent, but I expect the foetus’s rights outweigh the mother’s yet again.

I agree with that Doc. I think that if abortions were made illegal, more people would get them illegally. I know people who swear they would, especially in the case of rape, and I believe that they would. And I agree with you, better for it to be legal that illegal where one would get a back street abortion. That would just cause more trouble than it’s worth. Anyway, I don’t expect abortion to be made illegal anytime too soon, especially in the case of rape. I don’t think the American public will tolerate it.

Look at Brazil, where abortion is illegal except for the case of rape and the threat to the woman’s life. Backalley abortions rose, and they’re very expensive, and on top off that, care for the resulting infections and injuries rose. And to top THAT off, all that is apparently no secret, so what’s the point of making it illegal?

 

[kage_ar]

And to top THAT off, all that is apparently no secret, so what’s the point of making it illegal?

Because it is murder of an innocent human being.

I am dumbfounded that any person can be bold enough to call themselves Christian and think that murder should be protected by law.

 

[Apryl]

Because it is murder of an innocent human being.

I am dumbfounded that any person can be bold enough to call themselves Christian and think that murder should be protected by law.

There are some ‘murders’ that are protected by law.

If someone were to be attacking me (or my family) and we needed to defend ourselves…

… or for those at war with another group of people (usually a country)

… maybe there are even a few other cases.

But how in the world could a person call themselves, not just a Christian, but a human being, a person in a civilized, modern country, and they want to have some way to kill an innocent child while it is inside of the mother?

That’s what gets me.

The child is not a threat to a mother.

I had a guy tell me that the baby was a ‘burden’ on the mother, and the baby was weighing on the life of the mother… gestation is temporary. Even if it’s an inconvenience, you are talking 7 - 10 months! Have the baby, and move along. Have the baby, and give it up for adoption. Have the baby, and give it away.

But it’s a human being we’re talking about, and an innocent one. No baby in the womb holds a gun to any one’s head.

No baby in the womb raises a hand to strike you.

If a persom were to do to a puppy what is done to the child in the womb for an abortion, they could be jailed. A puppy… a baby dog is more valuable than a baby person?

 

[Eris_Discordia]

. Even if it’s an inconvenience, you are talking 7 - 10 months! Have the baby, and move along. Have the baby, and give it up for adoption. Have the baby, and give it away.

If it’s conceived of rape, it’s not just an inconvenience. It can cause mental and emotional problems. I commend those who chose to keep a child who was a product of rape. However, I would kill myself. I already have severe depression, anxiety, PTSD, and BPD(Which for those who don’t know, borderline personality disorder.) stemming from rape. If I was pregnant, telling me to keep the baby and just give it up for adoption would be like sentencing me to a psychological and even societal prison, because of the stigma unmarried women face when pregnant. I’ve had to claw myself out of the hole I was placed in already, and I wasn’t pregnant. It wouldn’t be an inconvenience if I was, it would be a reminder to me every day that my rapist stole everything from me.

 

[Rence]

If it’s conceived of rape, it’s not just an inconvenience. It can cause mental and emotional problems. I commend those who chose to keep a child who was a product of rape. However, I would kill myself. I already have severe depression, anxiety, PTSD, and BPD(Which for those who don’t know, borderline personality disorder.) stemming from rape. If I was pregnant, telling me to keep the baby and just give it up for adoption would be like sentencing me to a psychological and even societal prison, because of the stigma unmarried women face when pregnant. I’ve had to claw myself out of the hole I was placed in already, and I wasn’t pregnant. It wouldn’t be an inconvenience if I was, it would be a reminder to me every day that my rapist stole everything from me.

With God’s love you’ll get it back with time Eris. Some people just don’t understand what others are going though. It’s not their fault, they just really don’t know. They do their best like everyone else. I don’t judge you Eris. I’m just grateful to God for you that you didn’t have to make a decision such as this to begin with. :hug1:

 

[Eris_Discordia]

With God’s love you’ll get it back with time Eris. Some people just don’t understand what others are going though. It’s not their fault, they just really don’t know. They do their best like everyone else. I don’t judge you Eris. I’m just grateful to God for you that you didn’t have to make a decision such as this to begin with. :hug1:

Thanks. It’s hard sometimes, though. Unless you’ve been through it, you really can’t understand. God forbid that happens, I’d rather have people not know what I am talking about than go through what I did. I’m glad I never had to make that decision, either. I’m “Lucky” in some regards because what happened to me wasn’t as bad as some of the things I’ve heard. I have a thread for survivors on another forum, and I don’t know how some of the others function. But anyway, I’m glad someone doesn’t judge, though I’m sure some will. I had apprehensions about commenting on this, because of how some of the posters react. I just can’t sit idly anymore, because far to many people have made a lot of comments that lack compassion for the mother in this case, who is a survivor of a horrible event. I’m protective of other survivors, whether IRL and online.

 

[Doc_Keele]

If it’s conceived of rape, it’s not just an inconvenience. It can cause mental and emotional problems. I commend those who chose to keep a child who was a product of rape. However, I would kill myself. I already have severe depression, anxiety, PTSD, and BPD(Which for those who don’t know, borderline personality disorder.) stemming from rape. If I was pregnant, telling me to keep the baby and just give it up for adoption would be like sentencing me to a psychological and even societal prison, because of the stigma unmarried women face when pregnant. I’ve had to claw myself out of the hole I was placed in already, and I wasn’t pregnant. It wouldn’t be an inconvenience if I was, it would be a reminder to me every day that my rapist stole everything from me.

Thank you for having the bravery to speak up Eris. I don’t know that anyone who hasn’t been through such an ordeal could possibly know what it would be like, which is why I find it impossible to condemn a woman making the decision to have an abortion in those circumstances.

Bless you sister, you are in my prayers.