Can raped girls abort?

[jmcrae]

I’m not saying the Church doesn’t consider it a sin. I’m saying there is no strong base for support of victims. There is no “Walk to End Rape”, or things of that nature,

There have been in the past, and I don’t know why they haven’t continued - things like Woman Take Back the Night, and Lady, Beware, for example.

and there is no groups that are Church based that I am aware that raises rape awareness, and there is nothing that is nearly as publicized being done about rape, aside from a few charities and DV centers. No one came to my school and taught me about rape, and there is not an outcry about it, even though it is very common.

Really? I remember having the Lady, Beware talks at my school at least once a year, from Grade 9 onward. We even had it in college for the first couple of years.

I understand that abortion, to the Church, is a grave sin. I know that rape is also considered a grave sin. And I am not encouraging anyone to get an abortion, I’m defending that the choice should be there, and that the church should do just as much for rape victims as they do for abortion.

I agree with you that there needs to be support for victims of rape. I disagree that anyone should be encouraged to kill her own child, though. I have seen two instances where the child was actually part of the healing process, and brought the woman to have a much higher sense of self-worth, and a sense of purpose for her life, that she might not otherwise have had, without the child. Being called “Mama” instead of “victim” made the healing process go a whole lot faster, for them.

 

[wanner47]

If you are forcing someone to carry a child to term that is created from rape, then that is a hopeless situation for some people. Not all, but some. Also, so many people say that it’s only 9 months, but you don’t take into consideration that pregnancy is hard. Between morning sickness and back aches and loss of mobility and loss of freedom, it’s not something some people can go through when the child is the product of rape. Some women can do it, but there are women who can’t.

You don’t have to tell me how difficult pregnancy is… I’ve had five, two of which resulted in miscarriage. But is that amount of difficulty worth killing an innocent human being? Would you think it acceptable for a rape victim to murder her rapist becuase it’s just “too difficult” to live with the knowledge that he’s alive? Of course not. Rapists have some rights too, as disgusting as their crimes are.

And yes, I believe every woman CAN if given enough support.

 

[kage_ar]

I’m not saying the Church doesn’t consider it a sin. I’m saying there is no strong base for support of victims. There is no “Walk to End Rape”, or things of that nature, and there is no groups that are Church based that I am aware that raises rape awareness, and there is nothing that is nearly as publicized being done about rape, aside from a few charities and DV centers. No one came to my school and taught me about rape, and there is not an outcry about it, even though it is very common. Rape happens about as often as abortion, and can be devastating to the victim of it, and there are no cohesive efforts to speak up for victims coming from the Church.

I understand that abortion, to the Church, is a grave sin. I know that rape is also considered a grave sin. And I am not encouraging anyone to get an abortion, I’m defending that the choice should be there, and that the church should do just as much for rape victims as they do for abortion.

Schools where you are must be very different that schools here. There is much community awareness, many programs (earlier poster mentioned some of them) here to fight these crimes.

Our parishes teach in the catholic school, in RE and in mass very strongly against sin and evil.

I am shocked that a place in “western world” does not have education and prevention programs in place for rape and all violent crimes.

Catholic Charities has counseling available in all 50 states. Please, call your Diocese and get information on counseling that is available.

 

[davidv]

I absolutely agree with Eris. Being “Pro-Life” must be much more than about preserving life surely? It must be about upholding the values that make human life worth living - like autonomy, freedom from violence, be it sexual or non-sexual. So to demote rape to a trivial problem compared to abortion is not “Pro-Life” for me.

Strawman.
Who has trivialized rape?

 

[Doc_Keele]

Well they’ve certainly deemed it *comparatively *trivial…
I admit to the use of rhetoric

 

[jmcrae]

Well they’ve certainly deemed it *comparatively *trivial…
I admit to the use of rhetoric

Rape is certainly a terrible crime, but it is not “the worst.”

Surely, the killing of an innocent person is worse.

 

[Rence]

This is what I’ve been getting at. I think that trivializing something that has affected so many people is wrong. Rape is about as frequent as abortion, and it can be just as, if not more so, devastating. Also, not only here in the US, but around the world, especially in third-world countries where it’s used as a weapon. Not to mention that survivors are still stigmatized, especially male survivors who have been raped by women. I think that there is not enough being done in the Church, and it infuriates me when people seem to trivialize it. And Doc is right. Life is about being able to live, and a lot of survivors are having that taken away from them, because of the severe psychological effects of it.

I agree with you and Doc. Insisting that a rape victim should be required to be pregnant as a result of that rape does indeed trivialize rape. It says very explicitly that the woman’s quality of life is not as important as the pregnancy resulting from the rape, because after that forced pregnancy, they can then try to muster the emotional and psychological strength to try and pull themselves together. It says very explicitly that the woman isn’t as important and should just deal with it. It’s clear, I get that. But I don’t agree with it. Support should be available to the woman for all aspects of her trauma. One does have the right to protect themselves from further insult. And they really don’t need others telling them how insignificant their pain is. I’m so sorry that people are doing that to rape victims. Thankfully the law helps them where others do not.

 

[kage_ar]

Imagine for a moment that tomorrow the Supreme Court rules that rape is not a crime.

Then people start marching for the rights of rapists to express themselves.

That there are business set up, and our govm’t funds these business to the tune of 3/4 of a BILLION dollars each year to help people rape others.

Would that not get you a bit upset?

ETA - add to that people who call themselves Christian say “well, I would not rape anyone but I cannot force my religious beliefs on others, they have a different moral code”.

 

[Doc_Keele]

The analogy doesn’t really work kage ar, not when you understand that permitting abortion and not permitting rape can both be justified by respect for autonomy. A woman’s autonomy, specifically.

 

[wanner47]

The analogy doesn’t really work kage ar, not when you understand that permitting abortion and not permitting rape can both be justified by respect for autonomy. A woman’s autonomy, specifically.

Abortion does not respect a baby’s autonomy.

Rence - so you think quality of life is more important than an innocent life? Should I be allowed to kill my kids if I think my quality of life is suffering as a result of their presence?

 

[kage_ar]

The analogy doesn’t really work kage ar, not when you understand that permitting abortion and not permitting rape can both be justified by respect for autonomy. A woman’s autonomy, specifically.

Actually, it works well because you have an innocent victim in each case - the raped person in a rape, the baby in abortion - who is the victim of someone (the rapist or the abortionist).

The rapist and the abortionist/abortion supporter are acting in respect for what they feel is their right. The victim is not respected, the victim of rape nor the victim of abortion.

 

[vz71]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but the main thing here is the life of a child.

Life is always of paramount concern.
Moreso then any despicable crime.

I disagree. Rape is just as bad.

Just so I can be certain…
Am I to understand that you believe the life of the child is a bad thing?
Bad as rape?

 

[vz71]

If you are forcing someone to carry a child to term that is created from rape, then that is a hopeless situation for some people.

No, you are wrong here.

For a situation to be hopeless, there cannot be any hope whatsoever.
The only way to keep out hope completely is to make the situation pemenant.

Death is permanent.
Anything less leaves hope for something better.

 

[vz71]

Also, rape is extremely difficult to prosecute, and most rape is either date or acquaintance rape, and 60% of rape survivors don’t come forward, and a lot of rapists go free. So punishing the culprit often doesn’t happen.

So instead we are going to carry out a sentence of death upon one of the two innocent parties involved in the crime?

What kind of barbaric society have we become?

 

[Doc_Keele]

Actually, it works well because you have an innocent victim in each case - the raped person in a rape, the baby in abortion - who is the victim of someone (the rapist or the abortionist).

The rapist and the abortionist/abortion supporter are acting in respect for what they feel is their right. The victim is not respected, the victim of rape nor the victim of abortion.

One point of similarity is not enough to make it a good analogy, kage ar. The points of dissimilarity have to be looked at as well. If you want to be logical.

 

[kage_ar]

One point of similarity is not enough to make it a good analogy, kage ar. The points of dissimilarity have to be looked at as well. If you want to be logical.

Explain to me the logic that one evil act is wrong and another evil act is good. Please, I beg you in your great and mighty wisdom, show the logic in that.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Explain to me the logic that one evil act is wrong and another evil act is good. Please, I beg you in your great and mighty wisdom, show the logic in that.

You’re asking me to prove that your illogical statement is logical?
I don’t find knocking straw men arguments a useful exercise.

 

[Apryl]

It’s not about overpowering. It’s not even about punishment. It’s about the fact that a woman didn’t choose to be raped, she obviously didn’t choose to be pregnant, and she shouldn’t be forced to give up 9 more months of her life for a child that, through every day of her pregnancy, could remind her that her rapist is still in control. Also, rape is extremely difficult to prosecute, and most rape is either date or acquaintance rape, and 60% of rape survivors don’t come forward, and a lot of rapists go free. So punishing the culprit often doesn’t happen.

*Edited for clarity.

And becaue punishing the culprit may not happen, does not make it ok, or for that matter, even REASONABLE to punish the child… and the rape victim.

If a woman is raped, why do we encourage (and yes, I’m saying that your langauge is an encouragement) women to kill the child and hurt themselves?

Having an abortion, how does that hurt him? Where is his penance?

Having an abortin, puts a murder on her conscience, not his.

Having an abortion, that doesn’t affect his body, but rather hers.

Still, for the last 40+ years, we say, ‘no rape except in the cases of rape and incest’, as if rape or incest make abortion ok.

The good news for us all is that the church has never waivered, no matter how much quiet noise there has been that abortion is some how justified if a woman is raped.

“How could you have THAT baby?”, that’s a question that should NEVER be asked, of any woman, no matter the circumstance of the pregnancy.

Sure, the woman didn’t consent to sex. So what? That’s just like saying that she didn’t choose to get pregnant in June, rather than in December. Or that HE didn’t want her to get pregnant, that makes it ok to off the kid.

But it’s NEVER our call when a conception takes place. That’s in the hands of God. Always has been, always will be. We don’t get to choose if a conception takes place.

So because we didn’t choose to the conception, that has no bearing on whether or not the abortion is acceptable, right, or should be encouraged.

 

[kage_ar]

You’re asking me to prove that your illogical statement is logical?
I don’t find knocking straw men arguments a useful exercise.

Perhaps we should have a wee class on what a straw men argument is?

Interesting that you dodge every single direct question with a snide comment.

 

[Apryl]

I’m saying there is no strong base for support of victims. There is no “Walk to End Rape”, or things of that nature, and there is no groups that are Church based that I am aware that raises rape awareness, and there is nothing that is nearly as publicized being done about rape, aside from a few charities and DV centers.

Oh… well… you’re right.

That is a problem.

I believe (I’m no expert, so I’m talking armchair stuff here)

Rape is a crime of violence, degradation, and it’s still seen as some mark against the victim. Fortunately, in recent years, it is not ‘what did you do’ in order to cause the rape.

Still, most women are seen as ‘damaged’, not just physically, but mentally, too. They often see themselves as some how a wrong-doer, with something to be ashamed of.

Now, in order to get some sort of support group, you’d have to get people to admit they were raped. Some, many, just want it to ‘go away’. Rather than mention it again and open up old wounds, they don’t talk about it. To any one.

Let’s not forget, some like to ask for details which may be seen as scintilating, or just lewd. That’s painful, too.

One thing I got from the Priest-sex scandal of less than ten years ago was that a lot of people never addressed the issue, or issues, was because they didn’t WANT to come forward. Now, every one is pointing fingers at the church, but the victims and their families, in many cases, didn’t push because of their embarrassment.

This is on the same level, imo.