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wanner47
Guest
Nice cop-out.
Does the child of a rape victim exist at conception or not? Please answer this question for me.
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Does the child of a rape victim exist at conception or not? Please answer this question for me.
Funny that when people are discussing a real moral issue, the wrong side always decides to drop the entire wisdom of the thread as merely ‘opinion’
And quite often, they are simply wrong.
The thread title says “Can raped girls abort?”
The question addresses abortion, which means that there is a child in the womb.
Documents from the USCCB that do not address pregnancy do not apply at all to the situation.
The fact of the matter is that abortion is an intrinsic evil no matter whether a rape occurred or the pregnancy resulted from consensual sex.
The church opposes abortion and teaches us that it is a mortal sin.
This is not opinion, this is fact.
Can a girl procure an abortion? Not if this girl wants to stay in line with what God and his church teaches.
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kage_ar
Guest
He or she has been dodging that question from me as well. Pray God that is because there is some grace of Baptism working and bringing conversion of heart.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I truly believe that Rence is not only thinking things through, she honestly and truly feels that she is correct and that we are not only wrong in various areas, but that in our presenting moral issues as absolute, we are disrespecting her and all others who ‘disagree’ with us. I don’t know whether she has accepted that there ARE moral absolutes; certainly the position of many people who want everything to be ‘opinion’ points to a very ‘relative’ type of view–but I truly believe that Rence is in no way being malicious.
That’s why it is critically important that we be extra-careful and make it crystal clear in all our posts that it is absolutely not “Rence the person” but “Rence’s words and position” which we address. I know that it is so easy to make comments that can be taken ‘personally’ even if they were not meant as such, and particularly in Rence’s case, with her already being ‘hypersensitive’ to a perception of disrespect, we have to keep making it clear that disagreement is NOT disrespect (I mean, she is obviously disagreeing with us and for the most part I haven’t seen people claiming that she is ‘disrespecting us’). The best way to do this is to keep on making it clear what the Church teaches (and that it is not ‘men’s decision’ but from God, and that the Church is simply keeping to that Godly teaching as it has always done). . .not ‘side tracking’, and above all, being as warm and loving to Rence the person as possible. Heaven knows that she has striven and has had remarkable success in being personally respectful to others even when she feels disrespected and coerced herself, and I think that the more we acknowledge and appreciate that in her, while attempting to be as respectful as possible in our dialogue with her AS a person, the better chance we have at actually succeeding in opening her mind to this issue.
That’s why it is critically important that we be extra-careful and make it crystal clear in all our posts that it is absolutely not “Rence the person” but “Rence’s words and position” which we address. I know that it is so easy to make comments that can be taken ‘personally’ even if they were not meant as such, and particularly in Rence’s case, with her already being ‘hypersensitive’ to a perception of disrespect, we have to keep making it clear that disagreement is NOT disrespect (I mean, she is obviously disagreeing with us and for the most part I haven’t seen people claiming that she is ‘disrespecting us’). The best way to do this is to keep on making it clear what the Church teaches (and that it is not ‘men’s decision’ but from God, and that the Church is simply keeping to that Godly teaching as it has always done). . .not ‘side tracking’, and above all, being as warm and loving to Rence the person as possible. Heaven knows that she has striven and has had remarkable success in being personally respectful to others even when she feels disrespected and coerced herself, and I think that the more we acknowledge and appreciate that in her, while attempting to be as respectful as possible in our dialogue with her AS a person, the better chance we have at actually succeeding in opening her mind to this issue.
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jmcrae
Guest
The child in the womb is not an “opinion” -she or he is a real child - a real person, with real feelings, and real terror when she sees that knife coming at her to cut her up and kill her merely because she is “an inconvenience.”
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Rence
Guest
As for some of you who feel that I am “copping out”. Honestly, how am I copping out? I have made my beliefs, values, thoughts and feelings well known on the subject of rape and EC and abortion. There should be no question in your mind where I stand on the issue and why. With all due respect, and with no offence intended: asking me irrelevant questions, twisting my words, and going around in circles is only making me ignore posts that do this. This is why I haven’t answered certain posts: the answers were the my previous posts. Demanding answers out of me when I’ve already been clear is just rude, therefore I ignore when you do this. I refuse to get into a circular dialog with you in which we go back and forth and you ask me the same questions over and over using different words. I have already tried that several pages ago, and it ends up the same: you keep asking the same questions using different words, and I keep answering the same way. I don’t think my answer will change just because you have asked it for the tenth time in another way. I have been consistent throughout. And it’s because of this, that yes, Tantum is right: I do feel like I’m being coerced at times. Asking me questions to which I have already made answers perfectly clear, and then whine that I am “dodging” is just … old. Sorry if that offends anyone. I really don’t want to offend anyone.
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Rence
Guest
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kage_ar
Guest
Asking one last time, do you accept the teachings of the Church when it comes to life issues or do you reject the Church teaching.
I’ve re-read all this thread. You have not answered that direct question.
I’ve re-read all this thread. You have not answered that direct question.
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NCSue
Guest
See this wonderful video for some insight on this question:
acts17verse28.blogspot.com/2010/03/moving-tribute-to-life.html.
This child, conceived by rape, was given up for adoption by his birth mother. From the looks of the video, the world is richer because his life was spared.
acts17verse28.blogspot.com/2010/03/moving-tribute-to-life.html.
This child, conceived by rape, was given up for adoption by his birth mother. From the looks of the video, the world is richer because his life was spared.
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Greg27
Guest
I think this is quite a terrible situation, since rape is a horrible act, but at the same time I don’t think abortion is the best way to deal with a pregnancy resulting from such an act. I think a better solution would be support and counselling for the victim as well as developing a strategy which helps the mother cope with the pregnancy and its circumstances as well as post-natal support. But above all I think great care should be taken not to judge someone in this situation or their decisions on religious grounds because it would just make a terrible situation even worse for the victim, and hard-heartedness and self-righteousness is in my experience, the most effective way to turn people away from the support that may help them through it.
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Rence
Guest
Thanks for the link
That’s wonderful! Choosing to be pregnant as a result of rape is certainly a choice for SOME women One can’t deny that. One just can’t deny choice for another woman is all I’m saying.
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hellopeople
Guest
Obviously she rejects the church teachings.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Um, I think it might be just a little, um, presumptuous for you to be making a statement such as that. It might almost appear that you were wanting to stir up trouble and upset, if people had ‘suspicious minds’. (with apologies to Elvis here).
How about waiting to see what Rence actually says instead of making judgments for and about her?
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hellopeople
Guest
From my understanding, she isn’t against abortion in every case. That goes against church teachings. I don’t know how this is complicated. I realize that kage is just trying to make her say it so he can say “HA, you don’t believe in the church…I am better than you.”Um, I think it might be just a little, um, presumptuous for you to be making a statement such as that. It might almost appear that you were wanting to stir up trouble and upset, if people had ‘suspicious minds’. (with apologies to Elvis here).
How about waiting to see what Rence actually says instead of making judgments for and about her?
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
But wouldn’t it be better for her to have the child first, raise it for a few months or few years to see if she likes it, and if not kill it then? After all, how can she make an informed choice if she wants the child or not, if she hasn’t had a chance to get to know it?Thanks for the link
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
So first you’re attempting to speak for Rence, and now you’re reading Kage’s mind and assuming that this is just about somebody trying to claim superiority over another person?
There are an awful lot of assumptions you’re making here, Hello. . .and your attitude is not very, um, well, we’ll say that your attitude verges on the cynical at best. In fact, you seem to be setting yourself up as the ‘moral superior’ here by making the above attack on another poster’s motives. That way, that poster will look ‘defensive’ in any response made, and you can then ramp yourself further up on your claimed ‘pedestal’. And virtually anything now that Kage says you can ‘paint’ to support your little thrusts.
And I’ll repeat, I think you should let people speak for themselves.
Especially if in your attempt to speak ‘for’ them your own contributions wind up (as they do above and previously) in alienating people by painting them into ‘adversarial corners’.
That isn’t very nice.
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kage_ar
Guest
Again, you are confused.
I’ve been involved in internet apologetics for a long long long time. I know how many eyes read our posts, and if some person is misled because a poster here puts “Catholic” in their profile then makes claims that contradict the Church, this could lead others into sin.
The sin is scandal is real, and to heap that on top of the sin of supporting abortion is not a good thing for the soul. Again, fraternal correction is required of Christians, we are supposed to help the brother who is in error.
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Rence
Guest
It would be better, if it were me, to take EC immediately in the emergency room immediately after the event. That way, there isn’t a pregnancy to deal with later. I disagree with those who would deny a woman EC immediately after a rape in the emergency room. And while I wouldn’t take any further action after that emergency visit, I don’t deny others the choice to do so in the case of rape. Rape is an entirely different senario that someone who has chosen to have sex and as a result got pregnant for the reasons well described below, so please stop asking me why it’s different. I think I’ve made it perfectly clear how I feel about it. I know I know, someone wil inevitably ask why it’s different
Let me answer now: just read the below.Wanting or not wanting a child is not the point. The point is, she didn’t choose to be raped, she did not consent to be raped, she did nothing to become raped. She didn’t choose, consent or do anything to be pregnant and she should have that choice. Why should a chaste person be forced to be pregnant after being forced to be raped? Do we not live chaste lives and then go on to either continue being chaste by being single, or going on to be married and have children? those are informed choices. But being raped is not a choice for the woman, let alone an informed choice. She has the right to protect herself from further violation.
Really and truly, I know it offends some of you all, but women have the right to protect themselves from further harm. I honestly don’t understand why people want women to be further victimized by forcing her to become pregnant after a rape. Truly, it’s beyond me why people think this is okay. I believe it is completely immoral. It goes against my conscience in every way. If a woman gets raped it should be her choice to accept or reject the possibily of a pregnancy. It’s part of her medical intervention after a rape. Not should be, but IS her choice. The woman, IMOHO, the rape victim, is the priority. I think that statement is perfectly clear as to what I believe. And I believe I am well informed.
If you think, due to the information available to you, that you should to be pregnant by your rapist, by all means, you should be. Go for it. No one is telling you that you can’t. In fact, I am of support of you that you should. But if you know, due to information available to you, that you should not to be pregnant by your rapist, you have a choice and can stop it.
People have labeled women as “sluts”, “whores”, “immoral” yadda yadda, if she chooses to have sex outside of marriage, and criticize women for being pregnant out of wedlock. How many times have I seen it in different threads on this forum even? Girls were “sent away” to have their bastard children who would then be given up for adoption, against the wishes of the mother. But if she gets raped, they try to force her to be pregnant from that rape, they tell her it’s a gift and an honor. Please. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. In Muslim countries, a man can kill his daughter or wife because she has brought shame to the family because she was raped. Over and over and over women are victimized and one would think that in this day and age, that would stop.
Well, I won’t be pregnant due to rape, I am well informed, and I disagree with those who say I should, and I thank God that I don’t have to be. Even if it were illegal, I guarantee, I wouldn’t be pregnant by a rape. I am not a slave, I am not someone’s property, I am not chattel, I am not a second-class citizen, I am not a living incubator. I am a woman and I am well deserved of being treated with respect and dignity, and have the right to choose not to be pregnant in the event of a rape - just as the woman next door can choose to be pregnant after a rape.
Thank you for your understanding, as always, understanding is always appreciated. God love you and keep you and yours safe from rape. It shouldn’t happen to anyone in the first place.
Let’s take this logic to another place and see if it really holds…
I was driving home yesterday and traffic was especially bad.
I am being horribly inconvenienced and made late for some important appointments.
I did not choose to be stuck in traffic. I did not consent or do anything at all to deserve this.
The fault lies with the idiots that did not look before merging and caused the accident and subsequent traffic jam that I am in.
I am never going to see the real person at fault punished (they got away before being involved in the accident).
I should have the choice available me to kill the other drivers to clear my way through.
Welcome to bizarro world everyone.
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Rence
Guest
Sure, go ahead, but you’re going to spend a lot of time in jail as a result. Good luck with that
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