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Glassman96
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Isaiah 44: 24, " Thus says God, your redeemer, He who formed you in the womb: I, Myself, God made all things,…". Who are we to destroy what God has formed in the womb?
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limerick
Guest
It wasn’t overlooked. I was being polite and not mentioning how pointless it was.
Is it better now that I’ve said it plain?
No, it is not better; it is more insolent.
It appears that way to you? How so? What have I posted that said that this has anything to do with my needs? Where?
"I need to preserve the life of the unborn child." "I need to protect women from doing themselves great bodily harm … " Both direct quotes from your earlier post.*** So here we can excise***.
um… 'cause I’m here alla the time… and I hope that Catholics ALSO don’t get abortions.
***Fair enough. ***
If you think that abortion is ok, why do you peddle your opinion on a Catholic forum?
(This is gonna be interesting)
I think the exercise of God-given free will is OK; in fact, I believe it is our duty as human beings and recipients of the gift of free will to apply it to any and every given situation in life after careful scrutiny and according to our own “highest eyes”. I detest abortion but I would never dictate to any woman to either have one or not have one. Every human being has been endowed with some capacity to evaluate his or her own relationship with a higher power - or no higher power, if that be the choice - neither you nor I have the market cornered on what pleases God. Do you think your cursory interpretation of my post and your attempt to diminish me with your language and your attitude pleases God?
No… NOT AT ALL. I’m aligning YOU and those who would have the woman undergo an abortion.
If you align me with those who would “have the woman undergo an abortion” then you have again utterly misunderstood my position, and this tack bores me.
Sure, the woman is emotional, hurt, vulnerable… so you rush her off to ‘fix things’, but who is there to hold her hand afterwards as she tries to deal with the consequences she had no way of foreseeing before she ‘fixed’ things? And what about the consequences she took because you and your ilk would suggest that she would be better off, some how ‘fixed’ by having an abortion.
You look at who you are aligned with!
Where have I ever, in any of my posts of this entire forum, indicated that I would “rush her off to ‘fix things’”?! I won’t even discuss an unexpected, unplanned, or defective pregnancy with any woman unless she approaches me. I do not interject my beliefs or experiences in this area unless she asks me to address her situation. I do not primarily endorse abortion as any woman’s solution to her dilemma. I have certainly not rushed any woman to an abortion clinic and left her there with no one to console her before, during or after her procedure. In fact, I have never accompanied any other woman to an abortion clinic, period.
So you tell me, Apryl, how on earth did you morph my post into a treatise of murder and mayhem, without conscience, without love, without God? When you point a finger and spew out phrases such as, “you and your ilk”, you’d better be absolutely certain about your claims. From where I’m sitting, you appear to be a person of minimal depth who suffers from an inability to plug into dialogue and instead gets her kicks jumping to erroneous and unfounded conclusions. Thoughtful posting is one thing; mouthing off quite another.
Limerick***
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limerick
Guest
Who has asked you to destroy what God has formed in the womb? You are responsible for making decisions for yourself. Allow others the same courtesy.
Limerick
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Eris_Discordia
Guest
I’ve been here since December. I’ve also been up front. Also, notice I used “I Believe” If you want to look through my posts, I’ve said I respect the Church, but refuse to follow it because I do not believe that the authority of the Pope is from God. Not that you were not free to believe it, but I choose not to. I’d rather be apostate than be a “Cafeteria Catholic”, and I will not believe in something that I disagree with.Oh boy…what to say…hello, and welcome to Catholic Answers Forums…JReducation? any thoughts?
*Edit, that sounds very snippy, which I didn’t mean to sound like. Sorry for the curtness.
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Eris_Discordia
Guest
There is a difference between Gravity, which can be observed, and God, which cannot be observed. I am not an atheist, and I believe in a personal deity, however, that deity is not the same as yours. I find the church far too black and white, when everything is a gray area, aside from murder and rape, abortion happens to fall in that gray area.
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Eris_Discordia
Guest
Not by the truth of the church. The truth is subjective when it comes to religion.
I’m actually kind of anti-social. Well to a point. I follow my own moral code. Which is don’t kill, don’t rape, be generous in everything, and to help others as best I can.
I do many things against the moral code of the Church. Aside from not going to church, I can think of a lot of things I do that are against the church, such as using Tarot and consulting with spirits through meditation. Obviously that’s something the church does not find moral, yet I still do it, because I am not bound by those codes.
No human can know the mind of God, (Or, insert name of deity here) and I personally do not believe that the Bible was inspired by God. Or if it was, how could man not mess it up somehow? I believe that historically, Jesus existed, but I don’t agree with anything the church has handed down, especially in regards to “Sexual Deviance”. I believe that Jesus was a rebel, who died for his beliefs, and had a lot of wisdom, but I don’t see that in the hierarchy or structure of this or any other Christian churches.
I fully believe that the Pope can make errors on morals,and I was using “Direct link to God” as sort of a metaphor, because you say he is infallible on matters of morals, and I disagree. As I have said, no man is infallible on everything all the time, so I don’t believe that he can dictate my morals on behalf of God.
I can neither prove nor disprove either way. I fully admit I don’t know. However, because there is no solid proof to me that Christianity is absolutely true, I will not forgo my morals and beliefs just to be on the safe side. Jesus had a lot of good ideas, but I feel they got lost in the pomp and circumstance of the church.
I don’t choose to accept Christ as my savior, but I believe he existed. If accepting Christ meant not having to accept all of the stifling organized religion, I might do it. However, I will not change my beliefs, nor would I ask anyone else to.
I’m actually happy, TBH. I’ll look up the book when I have time.Br. JR, OSF
Thanks.
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Apryl
Guest
You, too??
Actually, I was really excited when I read the FIRST Reading. I kept thinking, ‘this applies to that whole abortion discussion’
Deuteronomy 4:1, 5-9
*Moses spoke to the people and said:
"Now, Israel, hear the statutes and decrees which I am teaching you to observe,
that you may live, and may enter in and take possession of the land
which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
Therefore, I teach you the statutes and decrees as the LORD, my God, has commanded me, that you may observe them in the land you are entering to occupy.
Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, ‘˜This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.’
For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us
whenever we call upon him?
Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
"However, take care and be earnestly on your guard not to forget the things which your own eyes have seen, nor let them slip from your memory as long as you live,
but teach them to your children and to your children’s children."*
Wow!
What I got out of this: We have the Law. We have the Word of God. If you try to excuse behavior that is not in line and justify it as being outside of what you know better… that’s what you’ll have to deal with!.. I can’t help you. At all!
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When_it_comes
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f God is omniscient then he knows how to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so?
“God is incomprehensible” you respond.
Theists have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our mundane experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favor of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?
Of course, I can’t expect this to make sense to any one here. The only way you could maintain such a blind faith as I see here is if you rejected anything that offended you or challenged your knowledge. At least when I am censored, you must acknowledge the truth of this last paragraph.
If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so?
“God is incomprehensible” you respond.
Theists have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our mundane experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favor of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?
Of course, I can’t expect this to make sense to any one here. The only way you could maintain such a blind faith as I see here is if you rejected anything that offended you or challenged your knowledge. At least when I am censored, you must acknowledge the truth of this last paragraph.
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Glassman96
Guest
Everyone has the courtesy to make their own decisions, but when it comes to abortion, they should know that when they abort, they are destroying what God has formed in the womb.
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LindaSK
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You contradict yourself. If you feel murder does not fall in “a grey area”, then abortion cannot either.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Murder is not the same as abortion.
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SugarMagnolia
Guest
If only belief were a choice! But it is not. This is one of those things so obvious it’s difficult to explain. First let me say, as I have said on many threads, a lot of diagnosing of mental illness goes on on these boards by people not qualified to make medical diagnoses.
That said, no one has choice over what they believe. This is the nature of belief. For example, try temporarily believing that abortion is good. I know you’re against it so that’s why I use it as an example. For 15 minutes, choose to believe with all your heart and soul that it’s good. You won’t be able to because your heart and soul say otherwise. You can’t make a choice to believe what you don’t believe. Or choose, for 15 minutes, to believe Vishnu is god instead of Jesus. Or that the sky is orange instead of blue. It can’t be done. You can utter the words “I believe such-and-such” but you won’t have any inner conviction that your words are true; on the contrary you’ll still believe they’re false.
Now, people can choose what to do. Actions can be choices. People can choose to act contrary to their beliefs. A person can believe abortion is good, but choose not to have one because they want to obey the Church’s rules. There are people on these boards (based on all the threads, apparently lots of them) who believe masturbation is a mortal sin but they do it over and over again, running back and forth to confession with such frequency their priests must be paragons of patience to put up with them. Their belief that masturbation is a sin is not a choice. However, the act of masturbating (despite believing it’s a sin) is a choice.
I have to wonder how sorry for that sin they can be if they keep doing it so often.
I’m really having a hard time understanding how someone who repeatedly chooses to do something they believe is a sin, can be reconciled simply because the moment they’re finished enjoying themselves they feel regret,
But someone who has a belief (which is beyond their control, as are all beliefs) but chooses not to act on it, cannot be reconciled.
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davidv
Guest
Very true. The correct phrasing is “abortion is murder”, whether legal or not.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
That makes even less sense. Abortion is not murder. Never has been.
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o_mlly
Guest
Distance check. To avoid definitional problems: a mother who procures an abortion for the sole sake of her own convenience after implantation willfully takes the life of her unborn. True or false?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Oh yes, the “medico” feels he has to remind us that ‘abortion’ refers to the expulsion of the fetus from the mother’s womb and can be ‘therapeutic’ or ‘induced’ etc. etc.
Most cases of induced abortion (which is what we mean when we refer to an abortion that is sought specifically and without which the child would likely continue in the womb until birth) will result in the child in the womb being removed through chemical or ‘instrumental’ means with the result being death. Very, very seldom in late term abortions a child will actually be born ALIVE. But most often the result–and the DESIRED result–is for the child to be ‘terminated’ and the ‘products of conception’ to use a particularly nauseating phrase popular in the U.S. are ‘expelled’.
Now, those ‘products’ are invariably human beings at a given ‘biological’ stage. But then, we’re ALL in a given biological stage. . .the stages range from conception to death.
And these humans would still (were they not removed) have continued on the same biological course resulting in birth and then life as a ‘born’ human being were they not forcibly and without THEIR consent removed.
How is that not murder? Isn’t murder the taking of life without consent of the person?
Most cases of induced abortion (which is what we mean when we refer to an abortion that is sought specifically and without which the child would likely continue in the womb until birth) will result in the child in the womb being removed through chemical or ‘instrumental’ means with the result being death. Very, very seldom in late term abortions a child will actually be born ALIVE. But most often the result–and the DESIRED result–is for the child to be ‘terminated’ and the ‘products of conception’ to use a particularly nauseating phrase popular in the U.S. are ‘expelled’.
Now, those ‘products’ are invariably human beings at a given ‘biological’ stage. But then, we’re ALL in a given biological stage. . .the stages range from conception to death.
And these humans would still (were they not removed) have continued on the same biological course resulting in birth and then life as a ‘born’ human being were they not forcibly and without THEIR consent removed.
How is that not murder? Isn’t murder the taking of life without consent of the person?
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jmcrae
Guest
Actually, it can’t - which is why it wasn’t discovered until 1679. It was not until the effects of gravity were analyzed by leading physicists (especially Isaac Newton) that it became the “obvious” concept that we all understand today.
In the same way, it is the Church who studies God, or rather, the effects that God has on our world and on daily lives, and allows us to know Him.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
O mlly - it’s a circular argument, your statement is a truism.
Tantum - that’s not the definition of murder. Consent is no defence to murder in my jurisdiction BTW.
Tantum - that’s not the definition of murder. Consent is no defence to murder in my jurisdiction BTW.
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Tantum_ergo
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So what then does abortion do, Doc?
What do you call the infant who is aborted? Alive? I don’t think so.
The infant in an abortion procedure is dead. Before the abortion the infant was alive, after the abortion the infant is dead.
So, did the infant die a ‘natural’ death? No, nothing natural about procuring an induced abortion, using scrapers and chemicals.
What do you call the infant’s death, Doc? An execution?
What do you call the infant who is aborted? Alive? I don’t think so.
The infant in an abortion procedure is dead. Before the abortion the infant was alive, after the abortion the infant is dead.
So, did the infant die a ‘natural’ death? No, nothing natural about procuring an induced abortion, using scrapers and chemicals.
What do you call the infant’s death, Doc? An execution?
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Doc_Keele
Guest
An infant is not aborted.
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