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EasterJoy
Guest
No, it cannot be lost, once granted, but it is presumptuous to assume you already have been given the crown when your race is not even finished. We have cause for hope, not presumption.
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Joshua2006
Guest
I think you need to read this scripture in context and the whole scripture.
It goes on to say…
"28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Who was Paul writing to?
Hebrews…jews.
What is Paul writing about?
Sin and sacrifice.
That Jesus is now the sacrifice in lieu of temple sacrifice.
What is the knowledge of the ‘truth’?
Once the jews who reconized Yeshua (Jesus) as the supreme sacrifice for sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice.
Joshua
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bengal_fan
Guest
i already said you can’t “lose” it so i don’t know why you quoted my post??
sure. if you deny Christ before men, He will deny us before His Father.
the way you put it… no. now, if some one only “believes” but does not have the faith that produces works… then they are not saved (for even the demons believe and tremble). as long as we put our trust in God and live in the truth of His reconciliation, then we are with Him now and will be with Him for eternity.
again, belief is not enough. faith is what is required. faith produces works. whatever comes out of us is what is in our hearts. if we have murder coming out of us, we don’t have faith in us.
we can give up faith. we can give up trust. we can give up living in truth of being reconciled to God.
but we can’t “lose” our salvation like:
“oh no! i want to trust God and live in His truth but i messed up.”
or
“whoops, where did my salvation go? it must have fallen out of my pocket on the bus.”
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brkn1
Guest
I feel sorry for anyone who formulates a doctrine out of such a verse as (Hebrews 10:26).
That verse starts with an “IF”, which should put some pause to anyone claiming it for meaning the same thing as “THEREFORE” or “THERE” which comes later in the verse.
IF that is the doctrine you choose to accept as the final say on your position as one who is only “potentially” saved “after receiving the knowledge of the Truth”, THEN I feel sorry for you, since you can not ever sin again, since there “no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” for you and you must then expect to go straight to hell without passing go or “purgatory”.
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cascherman
Guest
Now it’s my turn to be confused, you told me literally one line ago that you said you can’t lose your salvation, and then you tell me you will be denied before the Father. Are you getting hung up on the word ‘lose’? I never said ‘lose’ has to be in reference to something ‘falling out of my pocket on the bus’.i already said you can’t “lose” it so i don’t know why you quoted my post??
sure. if you deny Christ before men, He will deny us before His Father.
This would sound pretty Catholic if your version of reconciliation was how Christ intended it to be… confession.
Again, pretty Catholic sounding. So, you would say to sin is to separate ourselves from God’s grace, that he freely gave to us, which in turn separates ourselves from eternal life? How would one reconcile himself to God?
When did I ever give you idea that that is how I imagined losing salvation? Against our own knowledge, like a coin in our pocket on a bus? Nah, when we sin we have a guilty conscience. We know that ‘coin’ has left our presence.
The difference is how we are reconciled to God in your mind and in mine.
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cascherman
Guest
I feel sorry for the person that dismisses entire Bible verses because of the first word. If that helps you sleep at night, whatever ya gotta do I guess.
These are quotes from protestant Bibles of John 6:51…
This must be an unwritten rule for a protestant interpretation. If it starts with ‘if’ then it can be dismissed. No wonder the most key Christian theme in the New Testament is glossed over by many protestant churches.
No this is not the only verse that eludes to this. In a few minutes I will provide more, dinner is ready though.
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brkn1
Guest
If the Catholic version also claims that sin separates us from God’s grace, then no sinner can ever be saved to begin with.
God’s Mercy towards a sinner is the very reason why He freely gives a sinner Grace. He could not do such a thing if sin prevented His giving us Grace as you claim.
Sin could prevent a sinner from receiving God’s Grace to do other works of faith etc., but you are making an assumption not supported in scripture that a sin after a person is already saved by Grace will be able to disqualify that person from what the Bible clearly calls the gift of eternal salvation.
God does not give the gift of eternal salvation with the threat of taking it back, except in the imagination of those who twist Scripture as they accuse others of doing.
If you disagree, then find any verse or group of verses that clearly backs such a claim. I’ve never found one yet and I highly doubt you will be able to either.
Eternal salvation could not have the description of being eternal, if it could ever be lost in any way.
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Curious_One
Guest
No you can’t lose your salvation once recieved because it all depends on God not you…the Bible tells me so 
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bwhite06517
Guest
(Aside … yes, this is the RIGHT place for such a discussion - not the other one!!!No you can’t lose your salvation once recieved because it all depends on God not you…the Bible tells me so
)
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
**IMHO, the difficulties in saying that it cannot be lost (& they do exist, though many difficulties are no more than misunderstandings) are outweighed by the difficulties in saying it can. There are difficulties with the doctrine of man & his activity, if one takes the view that it cannot be lost - but they are as nothing compared with the difficulties for the doctrine about God, His Character, & His Works. **
**Man is an awkward item for *any *systematic understanding of the world, so there’s no reason theology should be exempt from the difficulty he causes: so I don’t mind difficulty with the doctrine about man. ****Doctrine about God is another matter entirely: for whereas we are men, & have access to other men, & can build up a system of ideas about man by observing those men & our own hearts, we cannot do this with God. Natural theology does not take us far - to know Him in any detail, we need His Revelation. Even so, we never (for we cannot, in this life) encounter Him as He is; & while our insight into ourselves & others is also fragmented, there is a significant difference in our relation to our fellow-creatures &, or relation to God: for they are our our fellow-sinners, whereas God is Our Creator, Our Sovereign, Our Judge, & Our Redeemer: He transcends them & us, & nothing of us is unknown to Him. So while the difficulties are quite similar (in our knowledge of creatures & of God) their relation to us & ours to them is very different. Our ignorance of God, does not hinder His action - God is not hindered by anything in His creatures; their opposition to Him, is His “opportunity” to do His Will even so. **
**Creatures are not our end: man cannot be satisfied by anything in creation, but by God, & by God alone. Nothing short of God will do. So God is necessary to us in a way & degree that is simply unimaginable. This is not true of man. So, it is of the utmost importance that we should belong totally, universally, eternally, in all our activities, to God - we do already, by our creation & preservation, but we are further bound to Him by His invitation to communion with Him: His activity creates the “room” for us to respond. And all our activity & being is “within” His - there is no such thing as a self-existing creature. **
To know God OTOH is of supreme importance to us. God is revealed in the Bible as a God Who is faithful to His Word despite His People’s constant infidelity: He is to be believed & trusted, & can be, no matter what. And this eternal faithfulness is what (for me) makes any idea of loss of salvation by His elect unthinkable. If the elect can be lost, despite the Holy Spirit given them as a pledge of their salvation & despite God’s dying for them, how can God be called faithful ? How does Christ lose part of His Body - has He not power to keep it ? How is He a “Mighty Saviour” & Redeemer, if He cannot or will not carry through His Work ? I cannot believe in the limited & weak god this implies - for then He is no more than “the gods of the nations”. If this is to “believe OSAS”, then I believe OSAS.
**It could be argued against OSAS that God’s Goodness & Omnipotence are as incompatible with the actualities of sin & physical evil as the loss of the elect is with His faithfulness - whether this objection is fatal to OSAS, is another matter; AFAICS it isn’t. **
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brkn1
Guest
After reading your post many times, all that I can say is: WOW!
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, but they were Hebrew Christians!
Who told you Paul wrote Hebrews??
Heb 5:12-6:3
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
They had been taught the elementary doctrines, and should have reached the level of teaching!
Yes, in the first five chapters. Then in ch. 6 he starts writing
about apostacy.
Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
These Hebrew Christians were in communion (to which non- Catholics were not permitted.) They had been brought into the Body of Christ in Baptism, and experienced the Spiritual Gifts.
Are you saying that you do not believe it is possible for a Christian to fall from Grace?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
**You’re describing behaviour consistent with reprobation. I don’t think you understand the doctrine you criticise 
**
There is a fictional treatment of this topic in James Hogg’s novel (published 1834) “The Confessions of a Justified Sinner”. The central character, the “sinner” of the title, m****akes the catastrophic blunder of using his certainty of his election as a reason for murder & other crimes & sins (it does not help that his background is ultra-Calvinist “& then some” - nor that he is led astray by a character he suspects, but is not sure, is the devil). It’s a superb novel And that is the point
- what people seem to overlook in discussions of OSAS And All That, is that God’s grace is not given to us that we may (as it were) abound in sin. Don’t believe me: read the Puritan Ralph Venning on “The Sinfulness of Sin”:b. Good men witness against their own sin, as well as against other men’s sins. They do not only wish for the reformation of others, but they endeavour their own. If possible, they would be so innocent as not to sin at all…It is indeed possible that some men may declaim bitterly against other men’s sins and yet indulge their own… But godly men dare not do so; they are against sin in others and against sinning themselves. This is apparent in several ways:
(iii) They will not sin though grace abound or that grace may abound (Romans 6.1,2). No! God forbid! Though they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who is the propitiation for their sins (1 John 2.1,2) they will not do so. The very doctrine of grace and their interest in the death of Christ is the great obligation upon them not to sin (Romans 6; 2 Corinthians 5.15; Titus 2.11,12). The assurance of glory is a reason for mortification: ‘When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall ye appear with him in glory’ (Colossians 3.4,5). What then? May we therefore gratify corruption and live as we list? No! ‘Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth.’ Though there are promises of forgiveness to him who confesses his sin, a godly man dare not sin and buy repentance at so dear a rate. After St. John had said that if we confess our sin, God is faithful and not only merciful but just to forgive us our sin, and that the blood of Jesus Christ shall cleanse us from all sin, yet he adds, ‘these things are written that you sin not’ (1 John 1.9 with 1 John 2.1). They dare not sin that good may come of it, nor tell a lie that the truth of God may thereby abound unto God’s glory (Romans 3.7,8).
**Further down: **
**The several parts of the Gospel are against sin, as we shall show.
- The doctrinal part of the Gospel. This is the part which flesh and blood is inclined to interpret as an encouragement to sin, and from which it takes occasion to abuse the Gospel:
ii. The doctrine of redemption by the blood and death of Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus died for our sins, and some wicked wretches are apt to conclude that they may live in sin because Christ has died for sin. But he died for sin that we might die to sin (Romans 6). He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us to himself (Titus 2.14). The death of Christ calls for us to die to sin and to live to him that died for us (2 Corinthians 5.15).
**
gospeltruth.net/sos/sos_witagainstsin.htm
God’s grace is given that His People might forsake sin, & die to it, & not abound in it**; the accusation that OSAS encourages Christians to serve God by disobeying Him & recrucifying Christ the Saviour from all sin, & so, to serve Him by doing the works of the devil (which is what this amounts to) is only true, if it be true also of St. Paul’s doctrine of grace. **
**So the notion that election is an excuse or encouragement to sin is mistaken: ****like the corresponding nonsense that Catholics go to Confession to be able to sin. It’s time these fictions ****were forgotten. **
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cascherman
Guest
Which is where repentance comes in.
We deny receiving God’s grace when we sin. God is always standing in front of it with his arms out holding a plate full of grace. It is us that shoves his arms away when we sin. In that way, we separate ourselves from his grace.
Oh, our salvation will be eternal once we have it. Here on earth we are not in the state of eternal salvation. That is when we are in heaven.
I don’t think I was criticizing anything much less a doctrine that I don’t understand. I was asking questions. Some would call it trying to understand how a person understands their doctrine.cascherman;3547943:
You’re describing behaviour consistent with reprobation. I don’t think you understand the doctrine you criticise
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brkn1
Guest
Let us see what the Lord Jesus has to say about your idea of “once we have it”:
(John 5:24) “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH (G2192) everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into damnation; but IS passed from death unto life.”
Just so that we can be certain what HATH (G2192) means, let us read further what the Lord Jesus says:
(John 5:26) “For as the Father HATH (G2192) life in Himself; so HATH (G2192) He given to the Son to HAVE (G2192) life in Himself;”
This is one of the most clear statements made by Jesus, which declares that a believer begins to immediately hold and possess eternal life, never to lose that eternal life, beginning at the moment he becomes a true believer in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
If you expect to receive that possession after death, the necessary true faith which must include already having (not waiting for) such possession may end up being too late for you.
This is not the time to play with words, or trust what others say the Word of God means, including me. You will not be able to use the excuse Adam and Eve tried if you got it wrong at death. It is entirely between you and God. Please look into these verses carefully, asking God to help you find all the Truth in them.
You dismiss Christ, if you dismiss or incorrectly understand His
words here. The “Verily, verily” should make you want to be completely sure what Jesus meant in these verses, especially in regards to the words HATH and IS.
May Our Gracious Lord Bless you and guide you in all Truth.
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bengal_fan
Guest
i think the reason you are confused is because you aren’t understanding my whole post. the reason Jesus says He will deny us before the Father is because WE deny Him first. therefore, we are the ones who separate ourselves… God does not take away Himself from us. we deny Him and His truth from our lives. i also believe that if He is a part of our lives, we still have the ability to kick Him out. there is no sense of “losing” (in the form of “whoops” or in the form of God removing ) our salvation. it is a giving up of it.
oh no, i sounded catholic!!
confession is the means of understanding the truth of God (which is that we have been reconciled to Him through His Son). all confession is is an outward sign of an inward humility and total trust. when we are willing to kneel before some one (or God) and bow our head (presenting our exposed neck… which in ancient times was an enormous position of trust and submission) we show our complete trust and dependence on that person. it is how Christ intended it. it is the method of showing our acceptance of God’s truth and our total dependence on Him.
gosh, i better stop sounding so catholic! no, i would say to sin is to stop living in the truth that we are no longer separated from God. i would say it is a denial of His sovereignty and it is a sign of our lack of submission and trust in Him. in a sense, it is taking back the reigns and trying to do life on our own. it is a choice to live outside of God… it can lead to living outside of God for eternity.
so do you believe we can give up our salvation? my point is that i think “lose” is the wrong word. it either is saying that we simply have lost something accidentally or that God takes it away from us. neither of these can happen. we can give up our salvation.
well, i believed we are already reconciled. i believe that Christ reconciled the whole world to Himself on the cross. the problem is that people are not living in that state of reconciliation. and we can choose to deny His truth all the way into eternity.
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cascherman
Guest
I do not believe that Jesus is talking about this life we have right now. I do not believe that if I were in Christ’s audience at that time and I ‘met all the requirements’, that my present life would be eternal. I do not believe I will eternally be a guy named Chris married to a girl named Angela living in a house on So-and-so street. This is more a Jehovah’s Witness stance. I believe I will be perfectly fulfilled into what God intended us to be, once this life is over. The only thing I will have in common then with my life now is my soul.
If you would like I will agree that we can ‘have’ eternal life in this life, but it will not be applied to this life. I think we may agree in this regard.
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cascherman
Guest
agreed.i think the reason you are confused is because you aren’t understanding my whole post. the reason Jesus says He will deny us before the Father is because WE deny Him first. therefore, we are the ones who separate ourselves… God does not take away Himself from us. we deny Him and His truth from our lives. i also believe that if He is a part of our lives, we still have the ability to kick Him out. there is no sense of “losing” (in the form of “whoops” or in the form of God removing ) our salvation. it is a giving up of it.
oh no, i sounded catholic!!
confession is the means of understanding the truth of God (which is that we have been reconciled to Him through His Son). all confession is is an outward sign of an inward humility and total trust. when we are willing to kneel before some one (or God) and bow our head (presenting our exposed neck… which in ancient times was an enormous position of trust and submission) we show our complete trust and dependence on that person. it is how Christ intended it. it is the method of showing our acceptance of God’s truth and our total dependence on Him.
gosh, i better stop sounding so catholic! no, i would say to sin is to stop living in the truth that we are no longer separated from God. i would say it is a denial of His sovereignty and it is a sign of our lack of submission and trust in Him. in a sense, it is taking back the reigns and trying to do life on our own. it is a choice to live outside of God… it can lead to living outside of God for eternity.
so do you believe we can give up our salvation? (Yes, ‘give up’ is a better phrase IMO as well) my point is that i think “lose” is the wrong word. it either is saying that we simply have lost something accidentally or that God takes it away from us. neither of these can happen. we can give up our salvation.
agreed again, but this comes down to how far you take the ‘already reconciled’. I do not believe we may have free reign to sin how we want ‘knowing’ that Christ has forgiven us already for the sin we may commit. I believe we are responsible for our sins, if we sin we have to make it right or else we are not in God’s grace.
your not Catholic are you? I hope I haven’t been debating with a Catholic over the word ‘losing’ for a day and a half.
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brkn1
Guest
The thing is that, of yourself, you can never meet “all the requirements”, even if there was such a place a “purgatory”.
It is only our Lord Jesus Christ, Who took our place as forever condemned sinners, that paid the complete penalty for all of our sins and redeemed (paid our deserved penalty and cleansed) us with the one sacrifice of physically shedding His Precious Blood, which is the only Way that the Father will accept for the remission of those sins of ours.
There is simply no other Way for us to have our sins cleansed, but by the Mercy of God, whereby His Grace is extended towards us sinners, so that the resulting gift of true Faith in Jesus and what Jesus did for us saves us forever now, as we become new creatures in Christ, going from being dead in our sin to being made alive in the beloved, as adopted children of God, “never to perish”.
We must be adopted before we die or we are forever lost and condemned, without hope.
“…Behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation” (2 Cor. 6:2)
We may not have the next moment in this life. We dare not wait until later to be sure. True faith is sure. Abraham would not have lifted that knife to obey God, unless God had given Abraham a true and sure faith in God. God treasures that form of faith beyond anything a man can ever do of man’s self. That form of faith gives God all the Glory, which is His right to demand of us. To God be all the Glory. Amen.
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guanophore
Guest
If you expect to receive that possession after death, the necessary true faith which must include already having (not waiting for) such possession may end up being too late for you.
For Catholics, salvation is something that is past, present, and future. It begins at baptism, and we are “working out” while here, and enter into the finality of it at death. But one of the differences is that Catholics don’t think of salvation as something to be “posessed” as if we have a right to it, like many Protestants do. We enter into it, and partake of it, so long as we remain (abide) in him. The Son hath life in Himself because of His unbroken unity with the Godhead. Humans are able to break this unity through sin. That is why Catholics consider it presumptuous to consider one’s state of grace permanent.
It is not a dismissal of the words, but our understanding of the words is tempered by how all the rest of the message of salvation history and Scripture fits with it. Catholics don’t make doctrine by pulling out a few verses and separating them from the rest. When Paul writes that we too can be cut off and thrown out, we believe that too.
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