Can salvation be lost?

[guanophore]

The thing is that, of yourself, you can never meet “all the requirements”, even if there was such a place a “purgatory”.

No Catholic who understands what the Church teaches would ever suggest that anyone can follow the commandments “of yourself”. Obedience can only come from faith, and we are only saved by grace through faith. Purgatory is also a grace. None of it is “merited”.

 It is only our Lord Jesus Christ, Who took our place as forever condemned sinners, that paid the complete penalty for all of our sins and redeemed (paid our deserved penalty and cleansed) us with the one sacrifice of physically shedding His Precious Blood, which is the only Way that the Father will accept for the remission of those sins of ours.

There is simply no other Way for us to have our sins cleansed, but by the Mercy of God, whereby His Grace is extended towards us sinners, so that the resulting gift of true Faith in Jesus and what Jesus did for us saves us forever now, as we become new creatures in Christ, going from being dead in our sin to being made alive in the beloved, as adopted children of God, “never to perish”.

This is very Catholic.

We must be adopted before we die or we are forever lost and condemned, without hope.

“…Behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation” (2 Cor. 6:2)

We may not have the next moment in this life. We dare not wait until later to be sure. True faith is sure. Abraham would not have lifted that knife to obey God, unless God had given Abraham a true and sure faith in God. God treasures that form of faith beyond anything a man can ever do of man’s self. That form of faith gives God all the Glory, which is His right to demand of us. To God be all the Glory. Amen.

Amen! Catholics just don’t think of “salvation” as something that happens once in time for all time.

 

[swariffin]

To add to the question:

Can salvation be lost?

-if yes, how?

-if no, why not?

I would say the way for salvation cannot be lost. It is there for all people, once Jesus laid it down. But, it will be the people who could lost their way to salvation, simply by continue doing sins and reject the already opened and even offered salvation.

 

[brkn1]

<<<For Catholics, salvation is something that is past, present, and future. It begins at baptism, and we are “working out” while here, and enter into the finality of it at death. But one of the differences is that Catholics don’t think of salvation as something to be “posessed” as if we have a right to it, like many Protestants do. We enter into it, and partake of it, so long as we remain (abide) in him. The Son hath life in Himself because of His unbroken unity with the Godhead. Humans are able to break this unity through sin. That is why Catholics consider it presumptuous to consider one’s state of grace permanent.>>>

You explain that Catholics (and I’ll add many Protestants too) do not “think of salvation as something to be ‘possessed’ as if we have a right to it,”.

I must agree that the Bible is very clear that no man could ever deserve such a wonderful gift as Salvation. That is what makes that gift such a spectacular and amazing gift (Amazing Grace).
It is so undeserved and amazing, that it will forever be to the Glory of our Gracious God an example of His Infinite Love that can not ever be fully fathomed or appreciated for all eternity. Even the angels will watch in awe as God’s Mercy and Grace is unfolded. God out of His Infinite Love, was willing to give the most undeserving of His creatures, man, salvation from man’s deserved eternal punishment, by willingly taking man’s place in paying an infinite price for that gift of Salvation.

The only reason we now have a “right” to that gift of eternal salvation, is that it is a gift given freely by God. The ability to even believe and accept that gift of eternal salvation, which is faith, is part of the package and therefore also a gift.

A gift loses its definition of being a gift, if there is any requirement on the recipient to earn or deserve that gift in the least manner.

Once you are given that gift, it changes you. You are a new creature (born again). You are now an adopted child of God and if you try to then reject that gift, you will end up like the prodigal son, miserable until you end up back with the Father. He will make sure you get back to Him, even if He has to take you in death.

 

[guanophore]

A gift loses its definition of being a gift, if there is any requirement on the recipient to earn or deserve that gift in the least manner.

True, but there are right attitudes and behaviors that go with the responsibility of such a magnificient gift. It is incumbent upon the recipient to bear works that befit repentance.

Once you are given that gift, it changes you. You are a new creature (born again). You are now an adopted child of God and if you try to then reject that gift, you will end up like the prodigal son, miserable until you end up back with the Father. He will make sure you get back to Him, even if He has to take you in death.

Yes, I agree that being born again changes a person. But God will not drag a person into heaven that does not wish to spend an eternity with HIm. If the prodigal son does not “come to himself” and go back to the Father’s house, then the Father will leave him in the pig stye. This is his choice.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Which is where repentance comes in.

We deny receiving God’s grace when we sin. God is always standing in front of it with his arms out holding a plate full of grace. It is us that shoves his arms away when we sin. In that way, we separate ourselves from his grace.

Oh, our salvation will be eternal once we have it. Here on earth we are not in the state of eternal salvation. That is when we are in heaven.

I don’t think I was criticizing anything much less a doctrine that I don’t understand. I was asking questions. Some would call it trying to understand how a person understands their doctrine.

**My apologies - an awful lot of discussion of the topic features that particular idea that OSAS is an excuse or an encouragement for sin, &, by implication, can be nothing else. Some may [ab]use it thus, but that doesn’t make their notion of it anything but a perversion of its meaning. Antinomianism, however real, is not a reason to reject the Gospel of God’s free grace revealed in Christ - & to use OSAS so that we may abound in sin is clear-cut antinomianism; which is why antinomian use of the doctrine is really an abuse of it **​

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**It is not free-standing, as though it could be fully appreciated in splendid isolation, but is supported by & in turn supports doctrines which are meaningless if they are not meant to be Christian; & a Christian doctrine which guts the very idea of grace is not Christian but suicidal. So OSAS (aka the preservation of the saints) needs to be explained in a sense that does not minister to the doctrine of the “ungodly wretches” criticised in the quotation from Venning: that is, as a doctrine organically connected with the rest of the “body” of Christian doctrine. **

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Again, my apologies for the unfair criticism of you.

 

[brkn1]

Yes, I agree that being born again changes a person. But God will not drag a person into heaven that does not wish to spend an eternity with HIm. If the prodigal son does not “come to himself” and go back to the Father’s house, then the Father will leave him in the pig stye. This is his choice.

There was no real choice for the prodigal son if you recall.
Starvation qualifies as a form of “forced” choice, when you consider that even the basest of creatures will respond to the power of starvation if they can.

Look how the son, who then recognized how desperate and unworthy he was, tried to figure out how he could convince his Father to take him back. The Father did not even give the son a chance to finish his speech, as the Father was already running to greet and accept His lost son back into full sonhood, before the son got to the house. No chance for penance to convince the Father there.

 

[guanophore]

There was no real choice for the prodigal son if you recall.
Starvation qualifies as a form of “forced” choice, when you consider that even the basest of creatures will respond to the power of starvation if they can.

Oh, it’s a choice, alright. It may be a choice between bad and worse, but certainly a choice. He could have stolen some of the pigs food, if he chose. He also chose to go back in humility, asking that he be allowed to be a servant, not a son. He understood that he had forfeited his inheritance, and was ready to accept the consequence.

Look how the son, who then recognized how desperate and unworthy he was, tried to figure out how he could convince his Father to take him back. The Father did not even give the son a chance to finish his speech, as the Father was already running to greet and accept His lost son back into full sonhood, before the son got to the house. No chance for penance to convince the Father there.

The son did all his penance in the pig stye. The parable should be called “The parable of the Prodigal Father” rather!

God is always ready to lavish His mercy upon us whenever we come to Him. But, it would not be accurate to say that all who are “kicked by goads” actually return to Him. Some blame God, and continue to hatred until their dying day.

 

[justinthemartyr]

salvation cannot be lost.

it can be denied (or not accepted). this can even happen once some one has previously accepted it.

salvation is basically living in the truth that we have been reconciled to God. when we live outside of that truth, we deny God’s work in reconciling us and give up the benefits of that truth.

but it is not like i can be walking down the street and just… whoops! i lost my salvation! some one help me find it!

salvation isn’t a contact lens or our wallets. it is a free gift that is ALWAYS available to us because it is the truth of the world’s situation.

yes, the gift of salvation can be given back to the giver.

romans 11 and john 15 are just two places which make this very clear.

 

[Fisher]

Heb. 10:26- “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

Read the whole chapter

“For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins.” Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus’ very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

 

[guanophore]

Read the whole chapter
Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection.

One cannot fall away from somthing one does not have. These are not “on the verge”, they are partakers of the divine grace. That means they became part of the body of Christ.

Better yet, read the whole book! It is written to believers:

" Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end…Heb 3:12-15

You can’t “fall away” unless you are first holding on! The readers of Hebrews “share in Christ”. This message, found also in many other places in the NT, warns that we must “hold to the end”.

These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

What you say is also true, but such persons cannot qualify as apostate. To be that, one must be joined to Christ, not just curious or attracted.

“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.” Heb 6:3-8

These persons are enlightened, repentant, communicants, baptized, etc. The land has drunk, the seeds have sprouted. Granted, they should be teachers by now, they should be eating meat, not milk, but believers they are.

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up.

I agree with all these except that this person is not just “counting oneself”. Such a state does not qualify as being a partaker.

The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

This is not so far from the Catholic Teaching. However, in contrast to the OSAS theology, Catholicism teaches that it is possible to resist the Spirit permanently. That is what apostasy is.

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years.

It is a good try, but does not quite cut it. As a matter of fact, we cannot know the heart of Judas, and if there was ever a time when he actually believed. A pretender, as you have described here, cannot be an apostate. One who is not joined to Christ is not able to fall away from Him. I agree with you, though, that a person can have knowledge, but not know how to apply it. But this is not so much about knowledge as it is about relationship. One cannot be considered a partaker if one was never joined.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death.

No arguement here.

This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

This seems like a convenient rendering to support OSAS, but is not consistent with Apostolic Teaching, and other passages in the NT about falling away. I have a question for you…

If a person is OSAS, then how is it that their name can be blot out of the book of life once it has been entered?