Can science prove the world is over 4 billion yrs. old?

[Dan_Daly]

There wre never fewer than 3,000 to 10,000 breeding pairs of hominids/Homo sapiens

That claim was made in one of the threads linked to, and earlier in this thread if I remember correctly.

Even if one were to believe in evolution, the claim makes no sense. It would require, that at the low end- 3000 couples- 6000 individuals- made the “evolutionary leap” at precisely the same MOMENT. This is one example the “settled science” claims of evolutionist requiring as much faith as belief in the God of the Bible.

What remains undisputed is that polygenism was condemned as heresy. No Church document has been brought forward showing otherwise- because there isn’t any. Instead you are essentially arguing that based upon selected quotes and special interpetations that agree with one’s own opinion, that person has the right to disregard a clear Church teaching.

I do appreciate that in the linked thread, it is again agreed, that evolutionary theory does not stand without polygenism. Once again, I fully agree. It was this “problem” which was the opening of the door in my mind to putting aside the theological and scientific mess that evolution is.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Again, please carefully read the links.

I read them. I didn’t see anyone make a convincing argument in favor of polygenism.

The musings of a Cardinal, even IF the Cardinal means what you seem to think he means, do not trump the teachings of a Pope in an encyclical.

If the Church were to “backtrack” from condemning polygenism- a very problematic proposition since truth can not contradict truth, but even so, for the sake of argument, say polygenism was no longer heresy…

THEN

A faithful Catholic could believe in it.

While it is condemned, one cannot.

Because some believe the Church will realign its teachings to coincide with their opinions, they claim a preemptive orthodoxy by believing in Church teachings…that don’t exist yet and may very well never exist.

There is no difference in your position than being in favor of women priests (an impossibility) and still claiming to be a faithful Catholic, because in your perfect knowledge you know that at some point in the future, the Church will allow women priests so it won’t become irrellevant.

If you think I missed something particularly convincing in your linked threads, please point it out to me.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Nothing in those quotes says that Pope Benedict XVI believes in evolution or an earth that is billions of years old.

Of course the world is old. 6000-10000 years is pretty old to me.

“According to a widely accepted theory” is a statement of fact- he’s describing a theory, and saying it is widely accepted, which it is. That has nothing to do with whether or not the theory is valid. It is a widely accepted theory, among CATHOLICS, that the true presence is not real. It’s still a false theory- that is widely accepted.

But even for the sake of argument, say the Pope did make comments endorsing evolution or an “old(er) earth”. Popes are men and fully capable of making mistakes. And as you point out- the document above was from his time as a cardinal. And cardinals can make mistakes as well.

Based on what I have read of his writings and speeches, the current Pope is a very intellectual person, who likes to think out loud, and work through ideas. This doesn’t translate very well into the modern sound bite crazy world sometimes.

Pax.

Lots of contortionist mental gymnastics here to avoid the obvious.

And:

The musings of a Cardinal, even IF the Cardinal means what you seem to think he means, do not trump the teachings of a Pope in an encyclical.

All those are not musings of a Cardinal, but an official Church document, published by the Holy See, and the Cardinal in question ratified the document in his function as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a kind of gatekeeper position for the Catholic faith. It is always funny how those religious fundamentalists who claim that you are not a real Christian or Catholic, if you do not precisely follow their interpretation of things, are so selectively dismissive of official Church documents that do not support their opinion (and thus are less Catholic than they should be). This is called confirmation bias.

Atheists, if you read this, do not get too smily and smug about it. My experience is that the vast majority (not all) of atheists that I have discussed with over the years show pronounced selective confirmation bias as well.

 

[Dan_Daly]

All those are not musings of a Cardinal, but an official Church document, published by the Holy See, and the Cardinal in question ratified the document in his function as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a kind of gatekeeper position for the Catholic faith.

and nowhere in that document does the Church endorse polygenism.

Humani Generis, is an official Church document, published by the Holy See, and written by the Vicar of Christ- the man with the keys to the gate you refer to. It specifically condemns polygenism.

It’s also worth noting that Humani Generis does not pluck this teaching out of thin air. It states a truth the Church has held throughout it’s history.

I will continue to draw parallels to contraception and abortion because it is an appropriate parallel- do we adhere to Church teaching, or do we throw out the teachings and traditions of the Church because they are at odds with modern “science” and popular beliefs?

Pax and God bless.

 

[inocente]

Even if one were to believe in evolution, the claim makes no sense. It would require, that at the low end- 3000 couples- 6000 individuals- made the “evolutionary leap” at precisely the same MOMENT.

Yes that would be a totally inane claim. Which might have told you that it isn’t at all what evolution says.

When someone makes daft statements about science they’re also in danger of losing all credibility in what they say about the Church.

Reasonable site for learning evolution: evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml

 

[hecd2]

Even if one were to believe in evolution, the claim makes no sense. It would require, that at the low end- 3000 couples- 6000 individuals- made the “evolutionary leap” at precisely the same MOMENT. This is one example the “settled science” claims of evolutionist requiring as much faith as belief in the God of the Bible.

Individuals do not evolve - populations do. Evolution is the change in gene frequency (and the resulting change in phenotype) within a breeding population over time. The archaeological evidence is that human faculties developed slowly over a period of more than a million years, and did not appear overnight. But then, no palaeontologist would expect them to.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

 

[buffalo]

The Babel story is a myth, a symbolic story.

Really. Check any language studies lately? They will show that there was an event that caused abrupt language pattern changes.

 

[Lui]

Really. Check any language studies lately? They will show that there was an event that caused abrupt language pattern changes.

Languages change gradually. You can see the resemblance of German and English if you look at the older versions.
Our grandparents already spoke slightly different. Languages are constantly changing. To believe in the tower of Babel and that all people once spoke the same language that changed all of a sudden is a myth and never happened.
The tower of Babel never existed and neither did Noah’s ark.

 

[StAnastasia]

The tower of Babel never existed and neither did Noah’s ark.

Lui, I think the ark story may spring from a prehistoric flood local to the Black Sea region, survived by a small group of a family, with some of their animals. That could have been an event. It certainly was not global, and it certainly did not cover Mt. Everest, as the Himalaya have been over 20,000 feet high for millions of years.

 

[Lui]

Lui, I think the ark story may spring from a prehistoric flood local to the Black Sea region, survived by a small group of a family, with some of their animals. That could have been an event.

Either it actually existed in some form or the Bible justs wants to teach us something with that story. What never existed though is a global flood when almost all humans died and an ark that had all animal species on boards that live today.

 

[StAnastasia]

Languages change gradually. You can see the resemblance of German and English if you look at the older versions. Our grandparents already spoke slightly different. Languages are constantly changing. To believe in the tower of Babel and that all people once spoke the same language that changed all of a sudden is a myth and never happened. The tower of Babel never existed and neither did Noah’s ark.

Lui, I study, write and teach about Young Earth Creationism (YEC), among other subjects. Although YEC is an American phenomenon in origins (see Ronald Numbers, The Creationists), it has spread to Australia and is now being imported to Europe. We are fighting major battles in the UK, and there are creationist groups in Germany, France, and elsewhere. There is a huge new YEC movement within Islam as well, with Muslm YECs borrowing arguments from the very Christians whom they claim will not get to heaven. Christian YECs sometimes borrow arguments from Muslims, whom they say are not “saved.” This is a fascinating subject to study.

 

[Lui]

Lui, I study, write and teach about Young Earth Creationism (YEC), among other subjects. Although YEC is an American phenomenon in origins (see Ronald Numbers, The Creationists), it has spread to Australia and is now being imported to Europe. We are fighting major battles in the UK, and there are creationist groups in Germany, France, and elsewhere. There is a huge new YEC movement within Islam as well, with Muslm YECs borrowing arguments from the very Christians whom they claim will not get to heaven. Christian YECs sometimes borrow arguments from Muslims, whom they say are not “saved.” This is a fascinating subject to study.

I noticed that one poster here posted something as if he had actually written it and it turned out to be “borrowed” word for word from an Islamic website. I noticed the topic of creationism showing up on German Catholic forums too but the priests I’ve talked to about the subject are severely against creationism and cringe at the thought of it.

 

[buffalo]

Languages change gradually. You can see the resemblance of German and English if you look at the older versions.
Our grandparents already spoke slightly different. Languages are constantly changing. To believe in the tower of Babel and that all people once spoke the same language that changed all of a sudden is a myth and never happened.
The tower of Babel never existed and neither did Noah’s ark.

Let us start with Archaeology.

Was there an actual Tower of Babel? You say it never existed.

World: Middle East
Rediscovering the Tower of Babel

…The main clues came from writings found on the side of the building which quote King Nebuchadnezzar, who ordered its construction some 1,500 years ago.

 

[inocente]

Christian YECs sometimes borrow arguments from Muslims, whom they say are not “saved.” This is a fascinating subject to study.

There must be a survival advantage for tribes forming around beliefs in any old tosh or the behavior wouldn’t have evolved, are you aware of any research?

 

[StAnastasia]

I noticed that one poster here posted something as if he had actually written it and it turned out to be “borrowed” word for word from an Islamic website. I noticed the topic of creationism showing up on German Catholic forums too but the priests I’ve talked to about the subject are severely against creationism and cringe at the thought of it.

Lui, one of the great theologians today working on questions at the interface between religion and science is your countryman, Michale Welker. You might profit from checking out some of his work:

The Work of the Spirit: Pneumatology and Pentecostalism (ed.), Eerdmans: Grand Rapids 2006

God’s Life in Trinity (ed.), Fortress: Minneapolis 2006
*
Reconsidering the Boundaries between Theological Disciplines*, LIT: Münster 2005

Resurrection – Theological and Scientific Assessments (ed.), Eerdmans: Grand Rapids 2002

Faith in the Living God (ed.), SPCK: London 2001

*The End of the World and the Ends of God: Science and Theology on Eschatology, *Trinity: Harrisburg 2000

 

[StAnastasia]

There must be a survival advantage for tribes forming around beliefs in any old tosh or the behavior wouldn’t have evolved, are you aware of any research?

Loads of it, although I would not dismiss it as “tosh.” I accept that as hominids evolved into Homo sapiens they came into spiritual awareness and moral responsibility, but I don’t accept the reductionist claim that because we are leaning how humans developed this awareness therefore it has no content, or the objects of belief do not exist.

A friend of mine edited this book on the evolution of religion:

anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/publications/EvolutionofReligionintro.pdf

 

[inocente]

Loads of it, although I would not dismiss it as “tosh.”

By tosh I meant YEC, alien abductions and other beliefs that fly in the face of reason rather than every belief on the planet , but thanks for the reading.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

The three stories of creation - man made from mud and blood- and of two brothers fighting and a Flood are hundreds of years before Genesis from the Jewish People’s Abrahamic homeland in Babylon.
Cain was exiled in Genesis to a distant land and “knew his wife.”- having an single woman in a distant land away from family in biblical times is an impossible assumption…
CLAIMING that the days were numbered before the Sun and Moon were created - which is how days are measured is insane. So also is trying to pretend that plants grew without photosynthesis is irrational.
We have moved way ahead of trying to pretend that a day was not a day for God as we know time measurement. GOD does not need time or days to create, HE is God and can blink and create a jillion worlds. He did not do that, HE set the system in motion and earthquakes, tsunamis, son sppts, oceans and the Ice Age all combiined to give us the earth we have today and we are studying it more and more as we now explore the Moon and Mars.
BUT this is irrlevant to the writers of the Bible who were inspired by GOD to write using their own stories and imagination and the knowlege they had of science and geography to give us a SPIRITUAL STORY OF GOD’S LOVE

 

[Lui]

Let us start with Archaeology.

Was there an actual Tower of Babel? You say it never existed.

Maybe people built some sort of tower but that’s not how languages developed. Languages developed slowly, from the fist humans developing some sort of mixture between sign language and sounds and then slowly increasing into a more complex language. I’m sure that at no time in human history there was ever ONE language all humans spoke. It probably developed differently among different tribes. I’m not sure if Neanderthals, who weren’t Homo sapiens sapiens, had speech but I would think they did.

 

[buffalo]

Maybe people built some sort of tower but that’s not how languages developed. Languages developed slowly, from the fist humans developing some sort of mixture between sign language and sounds and then slowly increasing into a more complex language. I’m sure that at no time in human history there was ever ONE language all humans spoke. It probably developed differently among different tribes. I’m not sure if Neanderthals, who weren’t Homo sapiens sapiens, had speech but I would think they did.

Ok- good.

Right, language normally develops slowly. So then what accelerated those changes that have occurred in the last 5000 years or so?

Now let us look at the language part:

THE TOWER OF BABEL
AND
THE CONFUSION OF LANGUAGES