Can science prove the world is over 4 billion yrs. old?

  • Thread starter Thread starter valentino
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, the fine tuning issue necessitates a multiverse or God to account for it. And while the multiverse doesn’t solve the design problem, it does lessen its potency somewhat (as compared to only a single universe) and it could be said that such questions about the creation and nature of the multiverse are ultimately beyond our ability to answer (which is what most physicists seem to say).
Agreed the basic issue is all we can do currently is speculate. There’s also a substantive difference between big bang and Genesis since Genesis has a universe which is right for us from the word go, whereas in big bang for most of its life none of our universe was suitable, and most of it today is highly inhospitable to carbon life. It seems reasonable to think we’re in a goldilocks zone in a goldilocks universe but we can’t really say, and anyway it’s nice to have mysteries.
 
Yes, but that is exactly what I meant with atheists believing in magic – they must believe in miraculous properties of matter that science has not shown to exist in actual matter. We know how matter behaves, and it does not behave that way.

And if some kind of physical system existed which does not follow the second law of thermodynamics, why should it turn into something where the law does hold?

Moreover, consider the law of conservation of matter and energy. If the system constantly cranks out universes where the second law of thermodynamics does hold (even if those are just a fraction of all universes produced at a given time), some of it constantly is turned into something that decays over time. This constantly diminishes the portion of matter and energy in the system that does not decay. So if the system was in the business of cranking out universes from all eternity (here to be understood as an infinite amount of time – time as measure of motion --, not changeless timelessness), where even small fractions of the whole tremendously accumulate over time if the process gets repeated over and over, it would all have become worn down into decay eventually.

Of course, you could invoke a physical system where the law of conservation of matter and energy does not hold. But you see that we come here from one special pleading invoking miraculous properties to another, with no end in sight.

Given what I said above, there are severe caveats to this, but you mentioned “all other things being equal (ie. excluding fine tuning for life)”, and this of course is the problem, the fine-tuning issue.

It barely lessens its potency. It would have to be an incredibly sophisticated device if it would be able to crank out universes varying from one another with such fine-graded differences in physical parameters that our universe would become statistically inevitable on a purely random basis, without someone/something that makes the choices. Such a device would shout out for design.

As physicist Stephen Barr says:

“having laws that lead to the existence of domains of a sufficiently rich variety to make life inevitable would *itself *qualify as an anthropic coincidence. There seems to be no escape. Every way of explaining anthropic coincidences scientifically involves assuming the universe has some sort of very special characteristics that can be thought of as constituting in themselves another set of anthropic coincidences.”

I agree that the physical system as necessary being sounds attractive at first. Yet while such a system sounds superficially attractive – and I agree with you that it does – ultimately it simply does not work. Eternal matter has tremendous difficulties, and a designing intelligence is required.

So when you sum up all the issues, It is not even remotely a contest between a necessary physical system and God. The final nail in the coffin of atheism then is the argument from reason, that rationality is impossible without free will.

That is how I see it.
Nice post Al. 👍
 
Yes, but that is exactly what I meant with atheists believing in magic – they must believe in miraculous properties of matter that science has not shown to exist in actual matter. We know how matter behaves, and it does not behave that way.
I don’t believe in magic. I don’t believe in things that contradict science. I don’t know how the universe/matter came to be but I personally do not believe magic had anything to do with it.
So when you sum up all the issues, It is not even remotely a contest between a necessary physical system and God. The final nail in the coffin of atheism then is the argument from reason, that rationality is impossible without free will.
what does free will have to do with any of this?:confused:
 
I don’t believe in magic. I don’t believe in things that contradict science. I don’t know how the universe/matter came to be but I personally do not believe magic had anything to do with it.
Then, like so many atheists, you have not thought through things properly. I do, and that is why I am still a theist, even though I am a die-hard evolutionist and have written an article on the origin of life by natural causes on the leading evolution and anti-creationist website Talkorigins.org (google origin of life, it will come up on the first page).
 
I don’t believe in magic. I don’t believe in things that contradict science. I don’t know how the universe/matter came to be but I personally do not believe magic had anything to do with it.
Stephen Hawking and other atheists seems to believe “in things that contradict science,” though. Hawking says that “the universe can and will create itself from nothing.” But for a thing to make another thing, it first has to begin an action, however, if a thing begins an action, then that thing must have previously existed. But nothing cannot make anything, since nothing exists by which it would have the power to begin an action, for instance, the action of making the universe. It seems to me a lot more logical believing that a Personal Being brought the universe into existence than believing in the magical “nothing” of many atheists.
 
So provide proper support for your claims. I am not stupid and every time you try this ****, you are insulting our intelligence, so cut it out. I have sources and I will provide them, but AFTER you provide proper sources yourself. That’s how this works. Welcome to real life.
Perhaps this is out of date, I have been out for a week.
But…
I do not see the problem with providing an alternate source if you have a disagreement with the first one.

Why all of the bluster?

The call was made to ‘put up or shut up’
I humbly submit it is time for the person that made the statement to follow through.
 
There’s a reason it’s a typical tactic - it’s a valid one. If a person has no education in a subject, then they are not an expert on a subject, and thus their word is not to be trusted.
If I warn to get out of the road, would you argue over the expertise I have in roads, traffic, or busses until you got hit by the oncoming traffic?
 
Heliocentrism is wrong, the sun is not the center of the universe. There are two possibilities left, the earth is or any point is.
Given that everywhere we look we see endless glaxies and stars, how can we be so certain we are not at the center?
 
If the total energy of the universe is zero then we have nothing from nothing, which is much less of a logical problem.

rossum
Except when someone hits you in the head with a very real brick.😃

Then it is a little more then just a logical problem.
 
Stephen Hawking and other atheists seems to believe “in things that contradict science,” though. Hawking says that “the universe can and will create itself from nothing.” But for a thing to make another thing, it first has to begin an action, however, if a thing begins an action, then that thing must have previously existed. But nothing cannot make anything, since nothing exists by which it would have the power to begin an action, for instance, the action of making the universe. It seems to me a lot more logical believing that a Personal Being brought the universe into existence than believing in the magical “nothing” of many atheists.
Yup.
 
Given that everywhere we look we see endless glaxies and stars, how can we be so certain we are not at the center?
Wherever I stand on the surface of the Earth I can see the horizon all around me. It is perfectly obvious to me that I am standing at the centre of the Earth and that consequently you are not at the centre.

The universe is like the surface of the Earth, it looks pretty much the same wherever you are.

rossum
 
Perhaps this is out of date, I have been out for a week.
But…
I do not see the problem with providing an alternate source if you have a disagreement with the first one.

Why all of the bluster?

The call was made to ‘put up or shut up’
I humbly submit it is time for the person that made the statement to follow through.
The bluster is because it’s a game that I’ve seen literally hundreds of times before, usually from anti-Catholics. What he’s attempting to do is get me to provide my sources, and then he’ll criticize them and the topic is diverted and we’ve both forgotten that his claim is standing on no support at all. It’s a classic diversion tactic. I refuse to be baited, which is why I will not “follow through” until he has.
If I warn to get out of the road, would you argue over the expertise I have in roads, traffic, or busses until you got hit by the oncoming traffic?
No, but that’s a false comparison. When it comes to evolution, it can take years of college level education to understand it. When it comes to getting hit by busses being bad, it takes about 1 minute of 2nd grade education to understand it.
 
Wherever I stand on the surface of the Earth I can see the horizon all around me. It is perfectly obvious to me that I am standing at the centre of the Earth and that consequently you are not at the centre.

The universe is like the surface of the Earth, it looks pretty much the same wherever you are.

rossum
Exactly.
It would be poor scholarship to claim the earth is not at the center if we cannot determine where the boundaries are.

Unfortunately it is a claim I hear many that claim themselves to be scientists make.
 
The bluster is because it’s a game that I’ve seen literally hundreds of times before, usually from anti-Catholics. What he’s attempting to do is get me to provide my sources, and then he’ll criticize them and the topic is diverted and we’ve both forgotten that his claim is standing on no support at all.
One thing I do know about the poster in question is that he does not abandon his claims. You need not worry of a diversion, he is not easily diverted.
It’s a classic diversion tactic. I refuse to be baited, which is why I will not “follow through” until he has.
So you do not wish to have your sources treated as you have his sources.
So what makes you any different then what you claim the other party is? Other then the fact that the other party has never demonstrated the behavior that you have acted out.
No, but that’s a false comparison. When it comes to evolution, it can take years of college level education to understand it. When it comes to getting hit by busses being bad, it takes about 1 minute of 2nd grade education to understand it.
So is it your contention that only those that have trotted out a pedigree to your satisfaction are qualified to discuss the topic?
 
One thing I do know about the poster in question is that he does not abandon his claims. You need not worry of a diversion, he is not easily diverted.
I see otherwise and I have dealt with him before. He is CONSTANTLY diverting. Just for this issue alone, has he addressed my request in the last couple of pages? Or even addressed me at all?
So you do not wish to have your sources treated as you have his sources.
So what makes you any different then what you claim the other party is? Other then the fact that the other party has never demonstrated the behavior that you have acted out.
Wrong. I want my sources treated exactly as his, which is why I am doing this. He made a claim first, he provides valid sources first. I make a claim second, I provide valid sources second. That is the same treatment. By trying to get me to provide mine first and put his claims on the back burner, HE is the one that wants special treatment for his sources.
So is it your contention that only those that have trotted out a pedigree to your satisfaction are qualified to discuss the topic?
Pedigree to my satisfaction? certainly not. But there must be some kind of standard. I would not let my housemate teach me about open heart surgery because he is not properly educated in it. I would not let my mother teach me about astrophysics because she is not properly educated in it. I would not ask my geology professor about English because she is not properly educated in it. I would not ask Richard Dawkins about religion because he is not properly educated in it.

The standard of a proper and relevant education is a must have - unless you don’t mind me being your surgeon next time you have heart trouble. But I’m sure you would mind. And why? Because you hold people to standards of education and training too. Why throw that standard out the moment the subject is evolution and only when the subject is evolution? It makes no sense.
 
Perhaps, but they are looking in the wrong direction if they wish to find scientific evidence for God. Religious faith is not based on the same kind of evidence that substantiates theories in chemistry, physics, or biology. To look for a chemical change in the eucharistic elements is to misunderstand eucharistic theology.
Who said anyone was looking for something claimed?
 
I see otherwise and I have dealt with him before. He is CONSTANTLY diverting. Just for this issue alone, has he addressed my request in the last couple of pages? Or even addressed me at all?
I can see by your number of posts that your experience is minimal.
Wrong. I want my sources treated exactly as his, which is why I am doing this. He made a claim first, he provides valid sources first. I make a claim second, I provide valid sources second. That is the same treatment. By trying to get me to provide mine first and put his claims on the back burner, HE is the one that wants special treatment for his sources.
He has already provided sources.
I am not certain I understand what you are talking about when you claim he is attempting to get you to provide sources first.
In fact, you have repeatedly addressed his sources. So you must know that he is not attempting to force anyone to reveal sources ‘first’
Your position makes little sense.
Pedigree to my satisfaction? certainly not. But there must be some kind of standard.
In open discussion. You are incorrect.
Anyone is qualified to have an opinion. And anyone is pefectly qualified to defend their opinion to the best of their ability.
To follow your contention to its logical conclusion precludes the ability to pass on knowledge.
 
Anyone is qualified to have an opinion. And anyone is pefectly qualified to defend their opinion to the best of their ability.
Nonsense.

I am an intellectual and a scientist, and I know a lot of things, but there are many areas where I am not at all qualified to have an opinion because I simply am not informed about the issues.

To state otherwise would be unrealistic and childish hubris. Only ignorant people, unaware of their cognitive limits, are able to believe that they are entitled to an opinion on anything.
 
Nonsense.

I am an intellectual and a scientist, and I know a lot of things, but there are many areas where I am not at all qualified to have an opinion because I simply am not informed about the issues.

To state otherwise would be unrealistic and childish hubris. Only ignorant people, unaware of their cognitive limits, are able to believe that they are entitled to an opinion on anything.
But you have the ability to make yourself informed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top