Can science prove the world is over 4 billion yrs. old?

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Anyone is qualified to have an opinion. And anyone is pefectly qualified to defend their opinion to the best of their ability.
To follow your contention to its logical conclusion precludes the ability to pass on knowledge.
Nonsense.

I am an intellectual and a scientist, and I know a lot of things, but there are many areas where I am not at all qualified to have an opinion because I simply am not informed about the issues.

To state otherwise would be unrealistic and childish hubris. Only ignorant people, unaware of their cognitive limits, are able to believe that they are entitled to an opinion on anything.
Given the facts of what exactly is and is not opinion, your statement makes little sense.
An opinion is a personal attitude, view, or appraisel.
That does not require any special knowledge.

Of course, knowledge and forthought help a great deal in being able to defend the opinion later, but that is not a requirement for an opinion.
 
Of course, knowledge and forthought help a great deal in being able to defend the opinion later, but that is not a requirement for an opinion.
An opinion has to contain some reasonable knowledge of a subject which represents that subject accurately, otherwise its not truly an opinion at all. Its just blind prejudice.

Its like me saying that in my opinion arsenal is a rubbish football team, even though i don’t know what the rules of football are or what it means for there to be a good football team.

There is blind criticism, and then there is an “informed opinion”.
 
An opinion has to contain some reasonable knowledge of a subject which represents that subject accurately, otherwise its not truly an opinion at all. Its just blind prejudice.

Its like me saying that in my opinion arsenal is a rubbish football team, even though i don’t know what the rules of football are or what it means for there to be a good football team.

There is blind criticism, and then there is an “informed opinion”.
You may call it prejudice, and in some circumstances you may be right.
Nevertheless, it is an opinion that they are entitled to have.

On a side note, I never thought for a second I would find myself in this position.
Do I really have to defend the ability to form and defend opinions?
If so, What exactly would the minimum schooling to gain the right to an opinion?
 
I can see by your number of posts that your experience is minimal.
What does my number of posts have to do with my knowledge of science or whether or not I have dealt with him before? It doesn’t.
He has already provided sources.
I am not certain I understand what you are talking about when you claim he is attempting to get you to provide sources first.
In fact, you have repeatedly addressed his sources. So you must know that he is not attempting to force anyone to reveal sources ‘first’
Your position makes little sense.
His sources, as I already explained, and so you must already know, are invalid - they are not authentic sources by any stretch of the imagination. I could not have gotten away with using his “sources” when I was in 5th grade, so I see no reason to accept them here. This hearkens back to the necessity of a standard.
In open discussion. You are incorrect.
Anyone is qualified to have an opinion. And anyone is pefectly qualified to defend their opinion to the best of their ability.
To follow your contention to its logical conclusion precludes the ability to pass on knowledge.
But he is not trying to express an opinion. If he were, you would be right - he is free to express his opinion. But he is trying to claim an absolute fact, not express an opinion. Furthermore, even an opinion can be wrong. It is the opinion of many that the Catholic Church is an evil institution bent on world domination and dragging every man, woman, and child down to hell with them. That is an opinion - and it is wrong, and those with correct knowledge have an obligation to correct their error.
 
But you have the ability to make yourself informed.
Why do you think I’ve been suggesting over and over that you guys actually formally study the subject? So as to make yourselves informed.
 
Do I really have to defend the ability to form and defend opinions?
It depends. If you want your opinion to be respected by intelligent people, then you have to show them that it is informed by reason and evidence. If you was in a towns square saying to all the white people that black people are sub-human, i would hope that people didn’t just accept your opinion as scientifically valid as if it was something you are entitled to say when you feel like it. You are not entitled to blind prejudice.

Now the above example is a bit extreme, but it is relevant if the question is “does your opinion have a rational basis”? If it does not, then it is just irrational prejudice; and you are not entitled to that when having an intelligent and honest discussion.
 
Why do you think I’ve been suggesting over and over that you guys actually formally study the subject? So as to make yourselves informed.
:rotfl:

Categorically trashing the sources is bogus because you do not think they measure up. :banghead:

I suggest you go pick a few that don’t measure up and we will discuss.
 
What does my number of posts have to do with my knowledge of science or whether or not I have dealt with him before? It doesn’t.
On the contrary, the number of posts gives us a direct indication of your experience dealing with any given poster here.
You made the claim to know a great deal of the poster, you claim how he operates “CONSTANTLY”
Your post number gives a good indication that you cannot know with certainty what you claim.
His sources, as I already explained, and so you must already know, are invalid…
Great. I suggest you show this.
Post your own refutation, post your source.
Make your case as air-tight as you believe it to be.
Thus far I see you claiming such with no backing at all. Surely someone with such a learned background shouldn’t have a problem coming up with any number of sources and scholarship that could not be easily dismissed.
So why the pause? Why not simply post your knowledge?
But he is not trying to express an opinion. If he were, you would be right - he is free to express his opinion. But he is trying to claim an absolute fact, not express an opinion.
I will leave that to be refuted by others.
I see an opinion well defended.
Unfortunately I do not see your opinion being well defended.
 
:rotfl:

Categorically trashing the sources is bogus because you do not think they measure up. :banghead:

I suggest you go pick a few that don’t measure up and we will discuss.
It’s not a matter of me thinking they do not measure up. they are literally on par with a 5th grade report on monkeys. I remember trying to use similar sources in the past and having my teacher reject them and fail me. There are standards for sources - rules, regulations, policies - and your “sources” meet none of them. They’re not even bottom of the barrel. They’re just plain not valid sources.

There’s nothing more to it. I’m sorry. I’m sure you’ve been using them for years and that you felt that they were strong support of your position, but it is simply a foundation of sand, not stone.

To continue to use the analogy with anti-Catholicism, they are on par with what carm.org has to say about Catholicism.
 
Do I really have to defend the ability to form and defend opinions?
If so, What exactly would the minimum schooling to gain the right to an opinion?
MindOverMatter2;8316481:
It depends. If you want your opinion to be respected by intelligent people, then you have to show them that it is informed by reason and evidence. If you was in a towns square saying to all the white people that black people are sub-human, i would hope that people didn’t just accept your opinion as scientifically valid as if it was something you are entitled to say when you feel like it. You are not entitled to blind prejudice.
Now the above example is a bit extreme, but it is relevant if the question is “does your opinion have a rational basis”? If it does not, then it is just irrational prejudice; and you are not entitled to that when having an intelligent and honest discussion.
So I am to be placed in the position of defending racists.:yawn:
This would seem to be a play to a bandwagon argument.
I am also defending your own right to an opinion, as well.

Sorry, but everyone is entitled to an opinion and they are likewise entitled to defend it.
 
It’s not a matter of me thinking they do not measure up. they are literally on par with a 5th grade report on monkeys. I remember trying to use similar sources in the past and having my teacher reject them and fail me. There are standards for sources - rules, regulations, policies - and your “sources” meet none of them. They’re not even bottom of the barrel. They’re just plain not valid sources.

There’s nothing more to it. I’m sorry. I’m sure you’ve been using them for years and that you felt that they were strong support of your position, but it is simply a foundation of sand, not stone.

To continue to use the analogy with anti-Catholicism, they are on par with what carm.org has to say about Catholicism.
This is a post by hecd mind you. Read it carefully, especially the bolded part.

Post 527
What do you think those sources and the other 41 you listed (well apart from Wieland and Duursma) say about the evolution of language and the historicity of the Babel myth? How do you think the authors in those references deal with these issues and why do you think they support your case?** Think about it - that is a pretty powerful reference list of linguists and history of language specialists (well, apart from Wieland and Duursma) and other people working in allied fields.** Do you honestly think that those references support the notion that a) language does not evolve and b) that all the major language groups appeared at once at a Tower of Babel event? Have you actually read any of the references in that list - I’m sure I’ve pointed out to you before that it’s bad form to reference papers that you haven’t read. If they do not support your position, then why on earth do you post them and refer to them as your sources?

Alec​

He is questioning if the sources back the premise of the article, which is valid. Dozens of posts later you are still whining they are not valid sources.
 
So exactly how much schooling do I need before I have a right to an opinion here?

What institution should I attend? For how long? And what credentials should I have?
Should these cover all areas of the discussion or just a single topic?

Thus far we have covered Bible history, Linguistics, radiometric dating, archeology, physics, biology, and psychology.
Is there anyone here that can claim doctorates in all of these?
Should I dismiss the rest as they do not have a right to their opinions?
 
On the contrary, the number of posts gives us a direct indication of your experience dealing with any given poster here.
Not at all. If I have 450 posts and 200 of them were spent in conversation with him, while another user has 20,000 posts and 5 of his were spent in conversation with him, I have more experience dealing with him than the poster with 20,000 posts.
You made the claim to know a great deal of the poster, you claim how he operates “CONSTANTLY”
I did not claim a great deal of knowledge of the poster. I claimed that in my interactions with him on this subject (which should have been a given), he has always acted the same.
Great. I suggest you show this.
I already did.
Post your own refutation, post your source.
No. First of all, this is, as I already explained, the method of diversion he is attempting to use - get me to provide my sources so he can criticize them in the hopes that I forget about his. I am not that stupid. In addition, his “sources” are so far off so as not to be addressed by experts. You might as well ask for a source directly arguing against the idea that 2+2=22. Who would bother to write that?
Thus far I see you claiming such with no backing at all. Surely someone with such a learned background shouldn’t have a problem coming up with any number of sources and scholarship that could not be easily dismissed.
So why the pause? Why not simply post your knowledge?
You’re right, it wouldn’t be a problem, if, as I have already explained multiple times, the request for my sources were not simply an attempt to divert things on to me.
I will leave that to be refuted by others.
I see an opinion well defended.
Unfortunately I do not see your opinion being well defended.
Defended by what? A couple of non-experts writing what amounts to little more than an opinion piece with citations that, more often than not, ultimately say the exact opposite of what they claim.

I picked apart his sources. I was denigrated for attacking his sources. No counterargument. No more sources. Just denigration of my argument.

Again - how are you not getting that I will not be duped by game playing. There is exactly two ways out of the corner he has backed himself into. Either admit error or provide proper sources.
 
This is a post by hecd mind you. Read it carefully, especially the bolded part.

Post 527
What do you think those sources and the other 41 you listed (well apart from Wieland and Duursma) say about the evolution of language and the historicity of the Babel myth? How do you think the authors in those references deal with these issues and why do you think they support your case?** Think about it - that is a pretty powerful reference list of linguists and history of language specialists (well, apart from Wieland and Duursma) and other people working in allied fields.** Do you honestly think that those references support the notion that a) language does not evolve and b) that all the major language groups appeared at once at a Tower of Babel event? Have you actually read any of the references in that list - I’m sure I’ve pointed out to you before that it’s bad form to reference papers that you haven’t read. If they do not support your position, then why on earth do you post them and refer to them as your sources?

Alec​

He is questioning if the sources back the premise of the article, which is valid. Dozens of posts later you are still whining they are not valid sources.
Apparently you missed his intent with that post. He was posing an argument against you. He was attempting to point out that these experts in no way support the claims made by the writers of the article, which is something I already knew and already informed you of.
 
Defended by what? A couple of non-experts writing what amounts to little more than an opinion piece with citations that, more often than not, ultimately say the exact opposite of what they claim.

I picked apart his sources. I was denigrated for attacking his sources. No counterargument. No more sources. Just denigration of my argument.

Again - how are you not getting that I will not be duped by game playing. There is exactly two ways out of the corner he has backed himself into. Either admit error or provide proper sources.
I will take a defense from sources then no defense anytime.
And if it makes sense and complies with what I already know to be true, I would likely believe it.

As you have pointed out, you have been criticized for attacking sources.
It is ad hominem, and is generally frowned upon in discussion.
So why not reveal yours?
If anyone attacks the source, would they not be openly guilty of hypocrisy?
That alone would win points in favor of your argument.
 
So exactly how much schooling do I need before I have a right to an opinion here?

What institution should I attend? For how long? And what credentials should I have?
Should these cover all areas of the discussion or just a single topic?

Thus far we have covered Bible history, Linguistics, radiometric dating, archeology, physics, biology, and psychology.
Is there anyone here that can claim doctorates in all of these?
Should I dismiss the rest as they do not have a right to their opinions?
It would vary from subject to subject and the magnitude, for lack of a better word, of the claim being made, as well as it’s level of acceptance by experts in the field. If you’re trying to tell me what the first law of thermodynamics is, five minutes on google is easily enough education. If you want to explain m-theory, a bit more education would be needed. And if someone is trying to upset the applecart - reverse the current scholarly understanding of something, it’s going to require a rather large amount of well defined, extremely detailed, supporting evidence.

As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
I will take a defense from sources then no defense anytime.
And if it makes sense and complies with what I already know to be true, I would likely believe it.

As you have pointed out, you have been criticized for attacking sources.
It is ad hominem, and is generally frowned upon in discussion.
So why not reveal yours?
If anyone attacks the source, would they not be openly guilty of hypocrisy?
That alone would win points in favor of your argument.
It’s not ad hominem. This is something else I already explained - ad hominem is insulting your opponent directly. Calling you and idiot, for example, would be an ad hominem attack. Explaining why a source is invalid is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

As for why I don’t reveal mine - am I talking to a FREAKING BRICK WALL?! I explained this already. I am not explaining it again. This is another gaming tactic - ask the same question over and over to get your opponent to give in in exasperation. So please don’t bother asking this again. You already know the answer.
 
Apparently you missed his intent with that post. He was posing an argument against you. He was attempting to point out that these experts in no way support the claims made by the writers of the article, which is something I already knew and already informed you of.
That is exactly what I said in my comment in the very same post. Did you read it?

Let’s do it again: This time my comment will be in red:

This is a post by hecd mind you. Read it carefully, especially the bolded part.

Post 527
What do you think those sources and the other 41 you listed (well apart from Wieland and Duursma) say about the evolution of language and the historicity of the Babel myth? How do you think the authors in those references deal with these issues and why do you think they support your case?** Think about it - that is a pretty powerful reference list of linguists and history of language specialists (well, apart from Wieland and Duursma) and other people working in allied fields.** Do you honestly think that those references support the notion that a) language does not evolve and b) that all the major language groups appeared at once at a Tower of Babel event? Have you actually read any of the references in that list - I’m sure I’ve pointed out to you before that it’s bad form to reference papers that you haven’t read. If they do not support your position, then why on earth do you post them and refer to them as your sources?

Alec​

**He is questioning if the sources back the premise of the article, which is valid. Dozens of posts later you are still whining they are not valid sources. **
 
It’s not ad hominem. This is something else I already explained - ad hominem is insulting your opponent directly. Calling you and idiot, for example, would be an ad hominem attack. Explaining why a source is invalid is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
I stand corrected.
It is a red herring that fits better. Rather then discuss the topic, we are discussing the source.
As for why I don’t reveal mine - am I talking to a FREAKING BRICK WALL?!
Given your demonstrated understanding of ad hominem arguments, can you explain why this would not qualify?
 
In another 200 years, nobody will believe in the “Big Bang” as currently described,

Pax.
That will be sad news to Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître the Catholic priest who developed the theory.
 
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