Can science REALLY explain Reality?

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Well that’s mighty dinkum of you.
Thanks, I think. :tiphat:
Don’t know. There seem to be many forms of the science-can-never-explain-thoughts argument, and here’s my take, although what’s being suggested on this thread may be very different:
The self, the “I”, exists in a parallel reality outside the material world. Triggers from the material world result in a transmission to “I” in the parallel world, which thinks out a decision and sends it back to the material world. These processes are mediated by the brain, which cannot think and is basically a router. The parallel reality is unfettered by any form of mechanism but the “I” somehow manages to be ordered, and this somehow explains free-will. The two worlds occupy the same space-time, but other physical phenomena only exist on the material side.
I like your model here. I’m not sure what you mean by “to be ordered,” but if I understand you right you’re not placing identity “I” with the brain itself, but uses the brain to mediate between that identity and the associated physical processes. This video, I think, is a pretty good (non-Catholic but why not) illustration of what “I” isn’t: Alan Watts: “I”. Watt’s survivors hooked up with the animations to go with the lecture segment.

Also if we are going that route, are you open to more than just the two realities? Personally I think there can be infinite ones – that match a lot of philosophy, religion, AND scientific discovery. But these are things I’ve never tried to put into words but was contemplating starting to do so (on another forum I run) just this morning! Ka-chingg!

Alan
 
I like your model here. I’m not sure what you mean by “to be ordered,” but if I understand you right you’re not placing identity “I” with the brain itself, but uses the brain to mediate between that identity and the associated physical processes. This video, I think, is a pretty good (non-Catholic but why not) illustration of what “I” isn’t: Alan Watts: “I”. Watt’s survivors hooked up with the animations to go with the lecture segment.

Also if we are going that route, are you open to more than just the two realities? Personally I think there can be infinite ones – that match a lot of philosophy, religion, AND scientific discovery. But these are things I’ve never tried to put into words but was contemplating starting to do so (on another forum I run) just this morning! Ka-chingg!
It’s not my model :eek: it’s what the supernaturalist folk have tried to sell to me. I think it’s illogical, convoluted and fearful, too bound up with clinging to primative beliefs even when they’re false. Also that the right place for the supernatural is the trashcan - God created a physical world, he said let there be light not let there be inexplicable whatsits. At the other end, multiverses just seem like they were dreamed up in a hurry so everyone could go home early at weekend.

As an engineer, unnecessary theorizing seems pointless, better wait for the science, but my model would involve emergent realities - meaning that chemistry contains properties which emerge from but don’t exist in physics, similarly biology contains properties unknown in chemistry, and the mind contains properties unknown in biology. (Kind of the reason we can’t explain an elephant using only quantum physics is that quarks don’t have properties called tusk and floppy ears.) These emergent complexities mean there are multiple simultaneous connected realities.

I like the video, consciousness is interesting - ever read a book on sleep science? It gives a whole new slant. Hope that made sense, it’s muy caliente here.

So now, what’s your take?
 
No. Epistemology (a branch in philosophy) must first be established. We cannot know what is real and what is not, for the human mind is limited. We can however, as Thomas Aquinas pointed out, know through revelations what a part of reality is. If you read Summa Theologica, you will know what I mean.
 
It’s not my model :eek: it’s what the supernaturalist folk have tried to sell to me. I think it’s illogical, convoluted and fearful, too bound up with clinging to primative beliefs even when they’re false. Also that the right place for the supernatural is the trashcan - God created a physical world, he said let there be light not let there be inexplicable whatsits. At the other end, multiverses just seem like they were dreamed up in a hurry so everyone could go home early at weekend.
When God said, “let there be light,” why don’t we have an account of Him first saying, “let there be time and space to contain the light?” Did He say, “let there be gravity, and let it manifest itself as curved space?”

The multiverse concept for me, was something that tied up a number of loose ends. What do you think of string theory? Last I heard they needed at least seven dimensions going in directions that we can’t humanly perceive. And you’re telling me that God can’t work in these seven dimensions? That He must play all His cards on a 3-D time-limited table?

And as far as multiverses, having been severely psychotic in the past along with helping a couple family members who were schizophrenic (a term psychiatry bandies about when they don’t know what else to call it – kind of like supercalifragilisticexpealidocious) I have learned quite a bit about multiple people in the same room, but perceiving a different reality. It doesn’t prove anything, but such an experience can open one’s mind to the possibilities that just because somebody is labeled “sane” doesn’t give them any powers over those who aren’t. And just because three people see one thing and the fourth sees another, that the fourth’s perception is invalid. It’s so much easier to dismiss what someone reports rather than try to work it in.

So if I’m getting you right, we can have curved space as gravity, with light bending around it, we have slowed light down to almost stopped and restarted it again, we see electrons that behave as if they were where they were at a time other than the time we saw it – and further if we’re watching them they behave differently. This is all well and good because we’ve seen it, but multiverses isn’t because we have seen it happen yet.

All those things were somebody’s dream. Somebody’s fantasy about how things tie together. Some of them pan out and produce fruit. Maybe multiverses haven’t, or at least haven’t yet for most people, but it was a useful model in helping me correct my wrong thinking, thus spiritually, emotionally, and mentally, it was a useful construct. I don’t need it any more, but it might be helpful to others and by definition if it were true you wouldn’t know it in this 'verse.
As an engineer, unnecessary theorizing seems pointless, better wait for the science, but my model would involve emergent realities - meaning that chemistry contains properties which emerge from but don’t exist in physics, similarly biology contains properties unknown in chemistry, and the mind contains properties unknown in biology. (Kind of the reason we can’t explain an elephant using only quantum physics is that quarks don’t have properties called tusk and floppy ears.) These emergent complexities mean there are multiple simultaneous connected realities.
The problem I had was there were no engineers who were applied to my particular case, when I was engineering my own mental/spiritual/emotional recovery. I had to take generic ideas and apply them, and see where that took me. That’s why I had to push the edge; to come up with views of reality that allowed some of the “bad stuff” to go and the “good stuff” to remain.

You lost me on the things about chemistry and physics.

And now you are saying there are multiple simultaneous connected realities? Isn’t that what you just got done trashing in the first paragraph? :confused:
I like the video, consciousness is interesting - ever read a book on sleep science? It gives a whole new slant. Hope that made sense, it’s muy caliente here.
About 30 years ago I had two different books, compilations of articles, that I found fascinating. One was called “altered states of awareness” which talked about various things such as sleep, sickness, chemical, etc that affect awareness, and the other had to do with biological rhythms – circadian, ultraradian, and infraradian. I found them interesting but I don’t remember a whole lot of the details. I really love these topics.

Alan
 
When God said, “let there be light,” why don’t we have an account of Him first saying, “let there be time and space to contain the light?” Did He say, “let there be gravity, and let it manifest itself as curved space?”
…Alan
Just as a sidebar, “Light/light” in the tradition of parables, which we know to have at least three levels of meaning, can also mean “Consciousness/awareness,” conscious awareness being a rare comoddity on this planet, a factor which leads to such slogans as “Beam me up, Scotty,” or "What intelligent life?

My favorite was from Gandhi, when after a tour of industrial London a reporter asked him what he thought of Western civilization. He answered with “I think it would be a very good idea!”
 
You’ve never palpably felt the presence of God? 😦
tonyrey;9380938:
Certainly not in the scientific sense of term - which is the issue on this thread.
Give it a little time, I think it’s only around 150 years since we first knew the Sun is made of hydrogen, now we know the composition of stars and galaxies we can never possibly visit.
1. The assumption that all thoughts originate in the nervous system implies that God’s thoughts also originate in a nervous system - given that we are made in God’s image.
We’re made in God’s image doesn’t mean God has a belly button and nose hair.
2. It also implies that we can never control our thoughts because all brain activity has physical causes - according to science.
You are your thoughts, there is no separate you for you to control.
3. It therefore disposes of the possibility that we have free will, the ability to think for ourselves, make our own decisions or have any moral responsibility.
It doesn’t do any of those things, and the only alternative explanation I’ve heard is “it’s like wow supernatural man, come wallow in superstition and ignorance”.
4. In effect it reduces persons to biological machines…
It’s unlikely that greater knowledge will cause anyone to think of their child as a machine and not as a person. On the other hand it’s not that far back when ignorance had people worrying their children could be replaced by changelings.
 
No. Epistemology (a branch in philosophy) must first be established. We cannot know what is real and what is not, for the human mind is limited. We can however, as Thomas Aquinas pointed out, know through revelations what a part of reality is. If you read Summa Theologica, you will know what I mean.
If you read Summa, you’ll find Thomas concluding that light is instantaneous, for his impeccable logic rules out that it’s just very quick. Dead wrong, and that’s the problem, reason without testing gets it wrong, which is how come philosophers can’t agree on anything to do with reality without science to guide them.
 
It’s not my model :eek: it’s what the supernaturalist folk have tried to sell to me. I think it’s illogical, convoluted and fearful, too bound up with clinging to primative beliefs even when they’re false. Also that the right place for the supernatural is the trashcan - God created a physical world, he said let there be light not let there be inexplicable whatsits. At the other end, multiverses just seem like they were dreamed up in a hurry so everyone could go home early at weekend.

As an engineer, unnecessary theorizing seems pointless, better wait for the science, but my model would involve emergent realities - meaning that chemistry contains properties which emerge from but don’t exist in physics, similarly biology contains properties unknown in chemistry, and the mind contains properties unknown in biology. (Kind of the reason we can’t explain an elephant using only quantum physics is that quarks don’t have properties called tusk and floppy ears.) These emergent complexities mean there are multiple simultaneous connected realities.

I like the video, consciousness is interesting - ever read a book on sleep science? It gives a whole new slant. Hope that made sense, it’s muy caliente here.

So now, what’s your take?
The brain is said to be a computational system. Our brains have been imbued with what might be called convictions or perceptions which can exclude claims or even facts said by another “brain” to be reality. It’s very difficult, perhaps impossible to convince the other “brain” that your “perception” is reality as their brain perceives that it is NOT. So how can science help the opposing “brain” to accept that which is true “reality.” That’s where I find that “innocente” may have contributed much to this discussion how science can help explain reality when he wrote, "These emergent complexities mean there are multiple simultaneous connected realities."

As he wrote: ***“As an engineer, unnecessary theorizing seems pointless, better wait for the science, but my model would involve emergent realities - meaning that chemistry contains properties which emerge from but don’t exist in physics, similarly biology contains properties unknown in chemistry, and the mind contains properties unknown in biology.” ***

Here is an example of “emergent realities” already presented on posts 512, 520 and 530 particularly 520 where the science of chemistry, physics and biology [in the form of fossil bones] have come together to make a statement of “reality.” Yes they are my posts but I now realize that the laws of chemistry, physics and biology support a realistic conclusion: The laws of Chemistry [pretreatmenf of the bones with acid, base and acid removes contaminants]; The laws of physics [the existence of a significant quantity of C-14 being present where none can exist after say 80,000 years]; The laws of biology [well preserved bones of biological species, dinosaurs which large biological components like collagen would have decomposed after thousand of years, yet are there in significant trace amounts in some bones].

I believe that the above thus serves as a prime example of “emergent realities” in which at least in this scientific study is a “reality” to the point that at least scientists are required to repeat such experiments many times to see if the data continues to be reproducible, convergent and concordant. Thus the criteria does exist where science can explain reality - where the laws of nature converge there is reality.

This convergence being true then it seems to me that the laws of nature - alias science can be used to show that some social and cultural controversies should be so evaluated such as: (1) The alleged Roe vs Wade Court decision which claims that there exists a right to kill an unborn child or (2) the alleged right for humans of the same sex to marry. I would think that the above two claims are false perceptions and are in disagreement with the laws of nature so why not evaluate the claims and counter claimes from a scientific point of view? What thinkest thou? :eek: In other words the opposites - conversially (1) The right to life of every human being is not a “primitive belief” nor is the right (2) to keep marriage between a man and woman a “primitive belief.” 😉
 
When God said, “let there be light,” why don’t we have an account of Him first saying, “let there be time and space to contain the light?” Did He say, “let there be gravity, and let it manifest itself as curved space?”
Light implies the others, since they’re all connected by the physical law. On the other hand light doesn’t imply zombies, vampires and fairies - light implies enlightenment, not a retreat into dark ages.
The multiverse concept for me, was something that tied up a number of loose ends. What do you think of string theory? Last I heard they needed at least seven dimensions going in directions that we can’t humanly perceive. And you’re telling me that God can’t work in these seven dimensions? That He must play all His cards on a 3-D time-limited table?
I had a “Santa Teresa” experience, a strong feeling of unification, of God, and like Teresa’s it lasted months. It taught me spiritually. Apparently it’s not that rare, and a few studies have been done. One speculation is a much higher than normal level of traffic between the left and right hemispheres for reasons currently unknown.

I’ll add my own speculation - people go in for dualism (such as natural + supernatural) when the two halves of their brain see the world differently. I prefer one holistic view after the two halves of my brain synchronized in my Santa Teresa experience.You preferred multiverses with your experience of psychosis and schizophrenia.

OK, bit of fun, but I think maybe we’re all post-rationalizing whatever our brains make of our experiences.
You lost me on the things about chemistry and physics.
Try this - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
And now you are saying there are multiple simultaneous connected realities? Isn’t that what you just got done trashing in the first paragraph? :confused:
All I meant is if you watch a movie of atoms, a movie of cells, and a movie of elephants, you wouldn’t realize that the atoms are in a part of a cell in the elephant’s ear. They appear to be separate realities but are connected.
 
All I meant is if you watch a movie of atoms, a movie of cells, and a movie of elephants, you wouldn’t realize that the atoms are in a part of a cell in the elephant’s ear. They appear to be separate realities but are connected.
Appear to be separate realities but are connected.

Which of many possible realities you perceive, of course, depends on the “you” doing the perceiving, and the circumstances.

Then there is 2 Kings 6:17. Reality is dependent upon the viewer of it.

Alan
 
Give it a little time, I think it’s only around 150 years since we first knew the Sun is made of hydrogen, now we know the composition of stars and galaxies we can never possibly visit.
To think science will enable a human being to palpate the Creator overlooks His spiritual nature.
1. The assumption that all thoughts originate in the nervous system implies that God’s thoughts also originate in a nervous system - given that we are made in God’s image.
We’re made in God’s image doesn’t mean God has a belly button and nose hair.

Since God is not a physical Being our nature cannot be entirely physical.
2. It also implies that we can never control our thoughts because all brain activity has physical causes - according to science.
You are your thoughts, there is no separate you for you to control.

If we are our thoughts our thoughts interpret themselves…
3. It therefore disposes of the possibility that we have free will, the ability to think for ourselves, make our own decisions or have any moral responsibility.
It doesn’t do any of those things, and the only alternative explanation I’ve heard is “it’s like wow supernatural man, come wallow in superstition and ignorance”.

If our thoughts originate in the nervous system they must be caused by physical events and not by us.
4. In effect it reduces persons to biological machines…
It’s unlikely that greater knowledge will cause anyone to think of their child as a machine and not as a person. On the other hand it’s not that far back when ignorance had people worrying their children could be replaced by changelings.

What people think of their child is irrelevant to whether materialism reduces persons to machines.
 
If you read Summa, you’ll find Thomas concluding that light is instantaneous, for his impeccable logic rules out that it’s just very quick. Dead wrong, and that’s the problem, reason without testing gets it wrong, which is how come philosophers can’t agree on anything to do with reality without science to guide them.
Oh, thank you, Inocente, for saying this so succinctly and effectively. Philosophy without science is - and must be - impotent, just as science without philosophy might not find any questions to answer.
 
To think science will enable a human being to palpate the Creator overlooks His spiritual nature.
:confused: We were discussing whether thoughts can be tangible.
Since God is not a physical Being our nature cannot be entirely physical.
Why? (seriously, no entiendo)
If we are our thoughts our thoughts interpret themselves…
You just reinvented self-awareness. 😃
If our thoughts originate in the nervous system they must be caused by physical events and not by us.
Errrm… if there is no supernatural then there is no separate supernatural you, your thoughts can only originate in the physical, there can be no ghost and machine, there is you, you are physical, there is one you in one Creation and it is physical.
What people think of their child is irrelevant to whether materialism reduces persons to machines.
Whether any given -ism says children are robots may mean something to slack-jawed long-haired sandal-wearing layabout philosophers but the rest of us will go on seeing our children as children regardless.
 
Errrm… if there is no supernatural then there is no separate supernatural you, your thoughts can only originate in the physical, there can be no ghost and machine, there is you, you are physical, there is one you in one Creation and it is physical.

Whether any given -ism says children are robots may mean something to slack-jawed long-haired sandal-wearing layabout philosophers but the rest of us will go on seeing our children as children regardless.
You’ve hit on something really important here, which is that the reality we experience is still there, regardless of whether “physicalists” are supposed to be trying to “reduce” our experience to “mindless molecules”. Even if our children - or others we care about - have no souls, we’ll still care about them.

No, physicalists are not trying to do any such thing as diminish the significance of human relationships, but are in fact attempting to explain all aspects of the reality we experience, since our experience is the only possible window into reality from a human perspective. Oh, sure, the supernaturalists might say that a human perspective is limited and inferior, but it is the only one we have, even when it comes to perceiving gods.
 
To think science will enable a human being to palpate the Creator overlooks His spiritual nature.
Which is a more elaborate way of saying, “Don’t bother to investigate - you’ll never know.”
Since God is not a physical Being our nature cannot be entirely physical.
How does this follow? If your god is not a physical being - that is, a being that engages in interaction with physical beings - how can there be any demonstration that he exists as something other than an idea in the physical minds of believers?
If we are our thoughts our thoughts interpret themselves…
We are not just our thoughts, but our bodies also.
If our thoughts originate in the nervous system they must be caused by physical events and not by us.
Which would be a profound insight were it not for the fact that you are unsubtly assuming that our nervous systems are not part of “us”. What do you think “we” are if not our detectable manifestations?
What people think of their child is irrelevant to whether materialism reduces persons to machines.
Not entirely irrelevant, when one takes into account what you mean by “reducing persons to machines”. You assume this negates any possibility of love or compassion, but upon no basis other than your notion of what love and compassion are (supernatural) and where they come from (your god). Please feel free to elaborate upon these claims with an explanation of precisely how they work; but if you don’t actually know and are just assuming, say so - claiming to know what love and compassion are not is comparable to claiming to know their ultimate nature. The ball is in your court…
 
To think science will enable a human being to palpate the Creator overlooks His spiritual nature.
We were discussing whether thoughts are palpable.
Since God is not a physical Being our nature cannot be entirely physical.
Why? (seriously, no entiendo)

Christians believe we are made in God’s image.
If we are our thoughts our thoughts interpret themselves…
.
You just reinvented self-awareness.

Can a person be equated with thoughts?
If our thoughts originate in the nervous system they must be caused by physical events and not by us.
Errrm… if there is no supernatural then there is no separate supernatural you, your thoughts can only originate in the physical, there can be no ghost and machine, there is you, you are physical, there is one you in one Creation and it is physical.

Including the Creator - in whose image we are made?
What people think of their child is irrelevant to whether materialism reduces persons to machines.
Whether any given -ism says children are robots may mean something to slack-jawed long-haired sandal-wearing layabout philosophers but the rest of us will go on seeing our children as children regardless.

How people **see **their children is irrelevant. Some people believe children are naked apelets… until they have clothes of course…
 
If we are our thoughts our thoughts interpret themselves…

You just reinvented self-awareness.
Can a person be equated with thoughts?

Yes. “Person,” “that which is sounded through,” is a thought structure not equatable to self. Equating thoughts, ot the aggregate of them, including memory, with self is an error of incomplete analysis. If this were not so, even in the duality of English we would nto say “I have a personality” similarly to “I have a mind.” or “I have a left foot.” What is commonly left out of the analysis is who or what it is that “has” these. That inquiry points to and can arrive at what constitutes the actual self.
 
To think science will enable a human being to palpate the Creator overlooks His spiritual nature.
Materialists leave themselves out of the equation and don’t bother to investigate themselves - as will shortly become evident…
Since God is not a physical Being our nature cannot be entirely physical.
How does this follow? If your god is not a physical being - that is, a being that engages in interaction with physical beings - how can there be any demonstration that he exists as something other than an idea in the physical minds of believers?

My post is addressed to a Christian who presumably believes we are made in God’s image.
If we are our thoughts our thoughts interpret themselves…

We are not just our thoughts, but our bodies also.

I am citing what the other person stated.
If our thoughts originate in the nervous system they must be caused by physical events and not by us.
Which would be a profound insight were it not for the fact that you are unsubtly assuming that our nervous systems are not part of “us”. What do you think “we” are if not our detectable manifestations?

If we are our detectable manifestations it doesn’t make sense to refer to “our manifestations” (no matter how apparently delectable they are). It amounts to saying manifestations belong to manifestations - which explains nothing. Another entity such as “we” does not even come into the picture. Possession and possessiveness are also eliminated - as will shortly become evident…
What people think of their child is irrelevant to whether materialism reduces persons to machines.
Not entirely irrelevant, when one takes into account what you mean by “reducing persons to machines”. You assume this negates any possibility of love or compassion, but upon no basis other than your notion of what love and compassion are (supernatural) and where they come from (your god). Please feel free to elaborate upon these claims with an explanation of precisely how they work; but if you don’t actually know and are just assuming, say so - claiming to know what love and compassion are not is comparable to claiming to know their ultimate nature. The ball is in your court…

It is only materialists who claim to derive persons from particles. A materialist on this forum explained how truth is an isomorphism of atomic particles. Such illusions as truth, love, compassion, freedom and purposeful activity should be ignored because it has been explained by other materialists on this very thread that such phenomena exist only in the mind. Since the mind is itself an isomorphism of atomic particles everything is an isomorphism of atomic particles - except atomic particles themselves. Inexorable logic that many are unwilling to confront because it is too unpleasant…
 
Materialists leave themselves out of the equation and don’t bother to investigate themselves - as will shortly become evident…

My post is addressed to a Christian who presumably believes we are made in God’s image.
I am citing what the other person stated.

If we are our detectable manifestations it doesn’t make sense to refer to “our manifestations” (no matter how apparently delectable they are). It amounts to saying manifestations belong to manifestations - which explains nothing. Another entity such as “we” does not even come into the picture. Possession and possessiveness are also eliminated - as will shortly become evident…

It is only materialists who claim to derive persons from particles. A materialist on this forum explained how truth is an isomorphism of atomic particles. Such illusions as truth, love, compassion, freedom and purposeful activity should be ignored because it has been explained by other materialists on this very thread that such phenomena exist only in the mind. Since the mind is itself an isomorphism of atomic particles everything is an isomorphism of atomic particles - except atomic particles themselves. Inexorable logic that many are unwilling to confront because it is too unpleasant…
For the time being, until I have time to reply at more length, I’ll simply say that you are - disinguenously - attempting to out-reduce those you accuse of being reductionist…
 
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